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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.

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E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Alx said:
Let's be honest, there's not much that could have been done to prevent that. At each defused terror attack this year you had counter terrorist experts saying sooner or later one will pass through, and that was today. It could have been the train last time, and we have to prepare for it to happen again.
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The problem is that everybody expects our politicians to react somehow. After such events, no politician can say to the public that such things can never be completely avoided and that we should not do what the terrorists want by responding hastily, getting into wars, or cutting civil liberties. Even if changing nothing in these respects might be the right thing to do.
 
U

UnluckyKate

Member
waking up. What a horrible night. Can't believe this all happened... smh...

Glad all my parisians friends are okay. I feel for all who can't say the same...
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
Wellscha said:
If WW2 comparisons are worthless then there's no point for boots on the ground, since it's a different beast altogether.
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Well, if you follow the counter terrorism measures that have been put into place since 2001 you're right. The Snowden revelations, the drone programs, the CIA and NSA programs are all indicative of a new way of fighting a new type of enemy.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Elfforkusu said:
Nah, people are just ignorant of how bad the World Wars were.

The 100th anniversary of Verdun is next year.
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Yeah. As horrible as events as today's attacks are, the entire "war on terror" over the last decade absolutely pales in comparison to WW1 and WW2; it even pales in comparison to a single bad day during these wars. We are happy not to live in these times.
 
C

cartoon_soldier

Member
Do you guys think France will invoke Article 5 of NATO?

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is a military alliance that is chiefly defensive in nature. Under Article 5 of NATO's Washington Treaty, an attack on one member of the alliance is seen as an attack on all of the others as well.

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all," the treaty says. Former NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen put it this way: "It's all for one and one for all."
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It was invoked after 9/11 and more recently by Turkey (to no clear result since there was no large scale attack) after a jet was downed by Syria.
 
M

M.Bluth

Member
Yesterday was Beirut, a month before several Shia gatherings around the world, before that an endless list of terror attacks. Whatever happens next will probably just result in even more of it all. I'm sick of seeing this shit happen over and over again. Fuck this world.
 
U

Undead

Member
Madness said:
Radical/Extremist Islam needs to be wiped off the face of the earth, not just ISIS. ISIS, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, Al-Nusra front, Al-Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Taiba, they're just the many faces of the same body. It's high time either there is reformation and the moderates lead, or eventually you're going to create such a backlash that it amounts of almost outlawing of religious customs.

Additionally, it's time that the US cracks down on Saudi Arabia, the #1 sponsor of terrorism and main source of funding for ISIS and other Sunni terrorist groups. How the fuck this happens after Charlie Hebdo, after that stopped train attack I don't know. The fuck is wrong with Hollande and France? Hundreds butchered today.
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No western country in their right mind would even dare touch Saudi Arabia, they control too much of the world's oil and could easily fuck up the global economy, so yeah, the Saudi's will continue to get away with all their crimes at least until their oil runs out (but then of course they have a huge army and shit tons of weaponry that western countries have sold them)
 
Z

zsynqx

Member
Tagyhag said:
Lol the good old days when more than 30,000 people died every day.

Things are shit now, but trust me they were a lot worse back then.
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I know I was being cheeky.

Before today I have rarely posted in the off topic side of the forum, but right now I am struggling to care about videogames. Been up all night (is now 8am where I live).
 
U

UnluckyKate

Member
cartoon_soldier said:
Do you guys think France will invoke Article 5 of NATO?



It was invoked after 9/11 and more recently by Turkey (to no clear result since there was no large scale attack) after a jet was downed by Syria.
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what is the enemy to fight here ? islamic extremism ? How to find it ? Be harsh on muslim ? invade syria irak again ?

Fighting crazy dudes who aren't afraid to die, who can spread terror with just one rifle is hard. It's hard to anticipate, hard to prevent, hard to fight back... This is why terrorism is such a tricky and fear inducing problem. It's just very efficient at what it does sadly
 
W

Wellscha

Member
Undead said:
No western country in their right mind would even dare touch Saudi Arabia, they control too much of the world's oil and could easily fuck up the global economy, so yeah, the Saudi's will continue to get away with all their crimes at least until their oil runs out (but then of course they have a huge army and shit tons of weaponry that western countries have sold them)
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Trust me, Saudi Arabia will collapse once oil has run out.
 
G

GoldenEye 007

Member
Nobody has said WW2 are the good old days. Nobody wants a war like that. Nor is it a fantasy. While I was not alive for WWI or WWII, I understand that it is an ugly, inhuman war. Nobody wants this or is excited by that.

The issue is that this situation puts a lot of people at a loss. What are we supposed to do? What is the best course of action. Because clearly the status quo isn't doing it. And stuff like this cannot continue. So doing nothing very likely just isn't an option.
 
E

Elfforkusu

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
Well, if you follow the counter terrorism measures that have been put into place since 2001 you're right. The Snowden revelations, the drone programs, the CIA and NSA programs are all indicative of a new way of fighting a new type of enemy.
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The type of enemy isn't new, though. World War 1 was started by what we might describe as a state funded terrorist organization.

What has changed is the global nature of the terrorist groups. It used to be that they were out for things like independence. Now it's out of religious zeal. It's a more global threat, since theoretically anyone can be recruited.
 
B

Buba Big Guns

Banned
zsynqx said:
These really are dire times when people are describing WW2 as the good old days for warfare. :(
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Anyone who believes that doesn't have any idea what theyre talking about. Those wars resulted in tens of millions dead, a number we cant even fathom in today's world. It was a different era and different mentality. You cannot compare that generation and ideology to today's world and geopolitical situation.

These attacks are fucked up in every way possible. Everyone needs to remember though as far as we know it was 8 demented brainwashed people who did it. Painting a broad brush on what happened and who's responsible and what course of action should be taken won't solve anything.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
I mean, I basically addressed that in that first paragraph? I even explicitly stated I completely understand that the Japanese empire is different from ISIS. But the similarity was that fact that the cultures were foreign to western powers like the US. So.. going further, the vastly different nature of Japanese culture being foreign to the US didn't prevent the ultimate rebuilding of that nation. But of course things are additionally complicated as ISIS isn't a traditional nation, like I have already said.

It's why I also said that a full-blown conflict would cost an indeterminate amount of lives as any military operation would probably sweep through multiple countries within the middle east.

I further said that I fully understand that the political will does not and will not exist for such a move - unless attacks like these continue. However, something has to be done as this is not sustainable. I even asked you what do you think would be a good course of action as I'm not an expert.
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Since everyone agrees Japan isn't the middle east, maybe we should move on to asking how you think the solution should be different from Japan.

Let's say we have a full force invasion wherever you want it to be, what's the obtainable goal, and how do you get there? In japan, it was to take over the government, but there's not really a government you can take over to solve these types of problems.
 
V

Vegito

Banned
This is kinda freaky.

1447469259954.jpg
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
Nobody has said WW2 are the good old days. Nobody wants a war like that. Nor is it a fantasy. While I was not alive for WWI or WWII, I understand that it is an ugly, inhuman war. Nobody wants this or is excited by that.

The issue is that this situation puts a lot of people at a loss. What are we supposed to do? What is the best course of action. Because clearly the status quo isn't doing it. And stuff like this cannot continue. So doing nothing very likely just isn't an option.
Click to expand...

You're talking about a region that has known conflict for thousands of years. What are you talking about this status quo cannot continue? No shit it can't but that's life. Given how long this has been going on for, it might be wise to learn to live with it because it's VERY unlikely it will be solved in your lifetime.

You'd have to achieve peace in Israel/Palestine. You'd have to bridge sectarian conflicts between Sunni vs. Shiite. It'd be easier to colonize Mars than solve that shit.
 
W

Wellscha

Member
thepotatoman said:
Since everyone agrees Japan isn't the middle east, maybe we should move on to asking how you think the solution should be different from Japan.

Let's say we have a full force invasion wherever you want it to be, what's the obtainable goal, and how do you get there? In japan, it was to take over the government, but there's not really a government you can take over to solve these types of problems.
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We dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, not to mention the firebombings, plus changing their religion forever.

Would you do the same to them?
 
T

thefro

Member
MisterFalcon said:
What exactly should this crackdown look like ? There are tens of millions of Wahabists in Saudi Arabia who are dedicated to their religion and will fight any attempt to seize from them their lands or wealth. You can't simply stop buying their oil, the global economy still relies too much on it.
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Freezing the assets of anyone funding a Wahabist cleric would be a good start.
 
K

Kisaya

Member
Wellscha said:
We dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, not to mention the firebombings, plus changing their religion forever.

Would you do the same to them?
Click to expand...

No, absolutely not. Because where the terrorists are based involves a significant number of innocent people just trying to live life that doesn't involve the harm of other innocent people.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Wellscha said:
We dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, not to mention the firebombings, plus changing their religion forever.

Would you do the same to the terrorists?
Click to expand...

How does that work here? Do we keep nuking random cities in the middle east until everyone starts behaving?
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
Wellscha said:
We dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, not to mention the firebombings, plus changing their religion forever.

Would you do the same to them?
Click to expand...

You gonna nuke an ideology that spans across nearly ever continent? What about the extremists in our own countries? You gonna nuke them too?

It's like hearing foreign policy from people who learned how to deal with shit playing Call of Duty.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
Kisaya said:
No, absolutely not. Because where the terrorists are based involves a significant number of innocent people just trying to live life that doesn't involve the harm of other innocent people.
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I would argue the same was the case for the Japanese cities that were destroyed by either fire bombing or nuclear bombing. Not that it makes carpetbombing IS territory (or any territory) a good plan.
 
E

empyrean

Member
Really sad day and my thoughts do go out to those affected by this. My hope though is that politicians (particularly in the U.K. Where I am) don't use this to push through more draconian legislation furnish civil liberties all in the name of "keeping us safe"
 
C

Cryxo93

Banned
krang said:
And what's upsetting is the western world is largely unmoved by that compared with what just happened in Paris. That's the heart of the problem, I guess.
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That's not to make what has happened insignificant, which it is not, but I was thinking this myself last night. You can't be surprised by Extremism when the West continuously interferes with peoples' lives halfway across of the other side of the planet, and has done so for hundreds of years. You can't be surprised that it breeds hatred about the West. Just imagine if it were the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if it bred extremist ideologies in the West if it were so.

It's terrible. But unsurprising... Which is the worst thing of all...
 
K

Kabouter

Member
Cryxo93 said:
That's not to make what has happened insiginigicant, which it is not, but I was thinking this myself last night. You can't be surprised by Extremism when the West continuously interferes with peoples' lives halfway across of the other side of the planet, and has done so for hundreds of years. It's terrible. But unsurprising... Which is the worst thing of all...
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As if this bullshit is the West's fault.
 
K

Kisaya

Member
Kabouter said:
I would argue the same was the case for the Japanese cities that were destroyed by either fire bombing or nuclear bombing. Not that it makes carpetbombing IS territory (or any territory) a good plan.
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It doesn't make it a good plan at all, and I don't support what they did to Japan at all. What happened there should set a precedent of how not to damage human life.
 
D

dabig2

Member
Wellscha said:
No, the point is we've done more harm to Japan than the Middle East. Yet, you see terrorist from the middle East than Japan who had more atrocities done against them.
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I'm sorry and I know this is a pile-on, but this is almost infant level of reasoning. You know what makes Japan different? Japan was a fully industrialized nation with a future to worry about. You bomb some random villages in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, (yeah, you're going to have to kill a lot of people in different countries) - what you're doing is just cultivating more terrorists in a people with nothing to lose. Japanese and Germans had something to lose. Poor, impoverished, and uneducated don't.
 
G

GoldenEye 007

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
I mean, I basically addressed that in that first paragraph? I even explicitly stated I completely understand that the Japanese empire is different from ISIS. But the similarity was that fact that the cultures were foreign to western powers like the US. So.. going further, the vastly different nature of Japanese culture being foreign to the US didn't prevent the ultimate rebuilding of that nation. But of course things are additionally complicated as ISIS isn't a traditional nation, like I have already said.

It's why I also said that a full-blown conflict would cost an indeterminate amount of lives as any military operation would probably sweep through multiple countries within the middle east.

I further said that I fully understand that the political will does not and will not exist for such a move - unless attacks like these continue. However, something has to be done as this is not sustainable. I even asked you what do you think would be a good course of action as I'm not an expert.
Click to expand...

thepotatoman said:
Since everyone agrees Japan isn't the middle east, maybe we should move on to asking how you think the solution should be different from Japan.

Let's say we have a full force invasion wherever you want it to be, what's the obtainable goal, and how do you get there? In japan, it was to take over the government, but there's not really a government you can take over to solve these types of problems.
Click to expand...
I mean, I mentioned that question in my post? It's right there. I was asking for other solutions.

As for the total war thing. I'm somber in saying that. It's not something I'm celebrating. I'm acknowledging that especially because ISIS is not a sovereign nation with defined borders, it will require an extensive sweep and action in sovereign nations that are either incapable or unwilling to address ISIS and other similar organizations within their borders.

It would cost an immeasurable amount of lives. It would be ugly. It would be time-consuming. It would require unprecedented support. It would turn out to be WW3. It would then require an unprecedented level of occupation, rebuilding, government establishment, investment, and expense until these areas can reasonably resist extremist movements.

Now like I've said a million times now that nobody is reading, I also acknowledge that the political will for this does not exist (unless attacks like this continue). So yes, how else to address this? Doing nothing and just "living with the reality" isn't an option and I think we all know that.
 
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