Support NeoGAF

[BaronLundi]

Managed to get a little bit of sleep.

My twitter timeline seems to be entirely made of pictures of missing persons. Almost entirely men and women in their 20s or early 30s.

There's still an eerie silence in the city this morning. For anyone who has never been to Paris, this is not what it looks like on a saturday morning:

 

[mehrmantrout]

Source?

Me, I lived there and worked solely for a very wealthy Libyan for 10+ years

Qatar And Turkey where the main backers for Libya's islamist opposition

Edit one day i'll write it all down but I saw, heard and did some crazy stuff

 

[Koren]

Thanks. Keeping tabs on 5000 potential criminals probably involves violating the privacy of many innocent people too.

Keeping tabs is not spying on them. For most, it's trying to know where they live, etc. Mostly public data.

DGSE (french internal secret services) has far more data on individuals, you'll be on a file just because you know someone working on a nuclear site, e. g. I'm pretty sure they have data on me.

As far as those 5000 are concerned, they have little powers in terms of spying them. A judge has to approve in advance anything the police wants to do, and they require a reason. Just them beeing on those S files isn't sufficient.

That makes trying to follow the couple dozen most dangerous ones a nearly impossible task. For this reason, a recent law suggested that you could get broaders powers in some case, meaning that you could in very specific cases put microphones in houses or tracker on cars without a judge authorization, provided those decision would be scrutinized afterwards.

I don't think there's much issues with innocent people privacy. A lot of the most dangerous of those 5000 have had legal troubles, spend years in jail, spend years in Syria or tried to, tried propaganda, etc. After some time, even if you're 'innocent', you expect the police to keep an eye on you...

 

[C4Lukins]

I know for a fact in Libya that Qatar bought all the Toyota's for ISIS/Brotherhood

Not that Qatar is beyond human rites abuses, but what in the world do they have to gain from that? A super rich government funding an end of days Islamic fundamentalist group on the eve of the World Cup? That is truther levels of nutz.

 

[zsynqx]

The IndependentVerified account ‏@Independent 6m6 minutes ago
North Terminal at Gatwick Airport is being evacuated

https://twitter.com/Independent/status/665475082358284288

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I have a Turkish coworker whose cousin works as a border guard on the Turkish/Syrian border.
He says the amounts of oil trucks coming through each day is staggering.
Just huge, mostly unmarked oil trucks all day.

And when Turkey "acts" against ISIS it usually involves killing Kurds. What a world.

 

[Shiggy]

I think ISIS fears a secular, moderate, educated muslim more than any western bombs. Failed integration is their goal, fueling the hate of xenophobic bigots is their mission. They are trying to make it as hard as possible for muslims in the western world to coexist, because they know that mistreatment and discrimination is one sure way to push people over to fundamentalism. It's extremely cold and calculated.

How can we make sure to integrate them? In Germany, lots of them are simply completely unwilling to integrate or to even learn the language, even though they are the third or fourth generation here. It can hardly be only blamed on discrimination as there are also examples of those who are well integrated.

And then we also have Germans who convert to Islam and join IS.

At the same time there are other groups who aren't well integrated. Asians, Russians. Yet I fail to remember a comparable terror attack by those groups in Europe in the past decades.

So just blaming it on integration does not seem fully plausible. We have examples of terrorists who were described to be well integrated after all. It's a problem with their mindset and ideology.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Not that Qatar is beyond human rites abuses, but what in the world do they have to gain from that? A super rich government funding an end of days Islamic fundamentalist group on the eve of the World Cup? That is truther levels of nutz.

In the last few years they've been trying to establish a global presence.

 

[lednerg]

Australia showing support for our French brothers and sisters.

Absolutely gorgeous.

 

[Apt101]

Don't watch that video of victims fleeing the theater. Not if you want to sleep. It's heartbreaking and I wish I'd never clicked on the link.

 

[mehrmantrout]

Not that Qatar is beyond human rites abuses, but what in the world do they have to gain from that? A super rich government funding an end of days Islamic fundamentalist group on the eve of the World Cup? That is truther levels of nutz.

Influence/Power. A lot of it is dressed up as respectable investment (buying up Harrods etc) in other places (Greece where they've quietly been buying up as much as possible) theres nefarious intentions. Libya could potentially be one of the greatest countries in the world it has literally everything it needs

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Regarding the fire in the Calais refugee camp, it is now confirmed by the sub-prefect that it was an accidental fire caused by "a candle or a stove". It is totally unrelated to Paris events.

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/m...endie-detruit-pres-de-2-500-m2-ia33b0n3159950

 

[zsynqx]

Pictures from Gatwick

Hopefully just them being cautious and there is not real threat.

 

[Koren]

And then we also have Germans who convert to Islam and join IS.

Some of the more radical and dangerous often followed this path :/

 

[Jumeira]

Some things for you to think about / address (I you care to):
1) A lot of Westerners joining ISIS are well-educated and well off (same think applies to 9/11 hijackers btw. - at least those from KSA)
2) You come from a gulf country afair. Some of the gulf countries practically hold people as slaves, yet there is zero radicalization from them.
3) What is the mistreatment you speak of exactly? In most of Europe Muslims can practice their religion more freely than in some predominantly Muslim countries.

1) They have grievances with current wars and unwavering support for Israel. They are warped individuals that are chastised by regular Muslims, and are isolated from them. It's not scripture but current affairs that corrupt them.
2) ?
3) Hate crime against muslims have increased 10 fold, in UK for instance police have created a new category for hate crime known has anti Muslim, which will be treated the same as anti-semitic
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/13/police-must-record-anti-muslim-hate-crimes

 

[Klyka]

Regarding the fire in the Calais refugee camp, it is now confirmed by the sub-prefect that it was an accidental fire caused by "a candle or a stove". It is totally unrelated to Paris events.

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/m...endie-detruit-pres-de-2-500-m2-ia33b0n3159950

Good to know, still horrible timing for that to happen.

 

[jelly]

I didn't mean the refugees speaking out. I mean the muslims who are 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation in the UK, France, Germany etc.

Lots of conservative views pop up there and that's something I don't understand. They mostly speak the language and hold the citizenship of the country they are in, yet still have some weird views.

Possibly a problem. If you're values are submit to Islam and not being very open minded, that isn't good integration. That goes for other religions as well but Islam seems to have an overly secluded and conservative view that doesn't mix, our way or nothing. Even being peaceful, it's not a good thing.

 

[caleb1915]

Source?

http://www.counterextremism.com/sites/default/files/ceptoyota.pdf

They're a big proponent, but Daash has been acquiring thousands more Toyotas after the company started importing them en masse over Daash occupied countries for the past year making a pretty hefty profit on them, after all the terrorist demand is so high they've been selling vehicles over market value after prices "have risen by 45% over the last six months.”

It's pretty disgusting seeing their response is basically, "LOL NO WAY?! *starts flipping through stacks of money*".

They also don't seem to want to cooperate or acknowledge the GPS tracking capabilities that they could easily provide which would give us a huge intelligence edge with coordinating attacks on their convoys, supply lines, and high-value targets in some cases.

 

[Frodo]

Regarding the fire in the Calais refugee camp, it is now confirmed by the sub-prefect that it was an accidental fire caused by "a candle or a stove". It is totally unrelated to Paris events.

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/region/m...endie-detruit-pres-de-2-500-m2-ia33b0n3159950

Oh! That brings a little bit of peace to my heart at least.

We must not let this create a backslash against Muslins and refugees.

 

[2San]

How can we make sure to integrate them? In Germany, lots of them are simply completely unwilling to integrate or to even learn the language, even though they are the third or fourth generation here. It can hardly be only blamed on discrimination as there are also examples of those who are well integrated.

What are you basing that on? The third generation that still exists mostly consists of little kids and the fourth generation barely exists. Stat in the Netherlands show that with each generation ingratiation improves a lot.

 

[Kuldar]

DGSE (french internal secret services) has far more data on individuals, you'll be on a file just because you know someone working on a nuclear site, e. g. I'm pretty sure they have data on me.

Just a little rectification, DGSE is the external secret service, it's DGSI the internal secret service.

 

[SolidusDave]

Well for one most islamic countries are not democracies or stable. Nor have they been for most or all of their history. Something that is also kinda important to remember. Cultural growth is not exactly easy in the face of never ending oppression. Large parts of Africa would be another prime example of the damage instability over the long term can have on progressive cultural thought.

Then you have the millions upon millions of Muslims in western countries that seem to be getting along just fine. Not going around trying to behead atheists or Christians.

I see you point, but still you have democratic countries with HUGE populations like Pakistan among them. Another thing that irks me is that even the West indirectly supports this radical mindset by happily making business with these countries (but let's send official condolences for Charlie Hebdo even though our business partner would have executed them on the spot...).
The idea of doing terrorist acts (or any atrocities) for Allah should be as ridiculous as current Christian extremists going on crusades. But it's still not, for too many people in the world while other people quietly tolerate it.

 

[SomTervo]

Y'all do know France has already bombed ISIS, yeah? They even bombed them less than a week ago.

Also do keep in mind we don't even know if this was ISIS yet. It could be AQ. It could be a cell of people who sympathise with ISIS or AQ.

Slow down.

Somebody ages ago and said ISIS claimed it, but they never gave a source.

 

[Palette Swap]

Managed to get a little bit of sleep.

My twitter timeline seems to be entirely made of pictures of missing persons. Almost entirely men and women in their 20s or early 30s.

There's still an eerie silence in the city this morning. For anyone who has never been to Paris, this is not what it looks like on a saturday morning:

Dude, Les Halles five minutes ago :

On a Saturday at 11:30 AM.

Glad to see you're safe.

 

[GC|Simon]

My god. In went to bed with the news that around 16 people were dead, now it almost tripled. I'm literaly sobbing. I have no words. Stay strong my French brothers and sisters.
Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité - no one will ever break it.

 

[Shiggy]

What are you basing that on? The third generation that still exists mostly consists of little kids and the fourth generation doesn't even exist.

What?! Are you serious? Have you ever been to Germany? Just go out on the street and take a look around. Based on what you are saying, you should not see any elderly Turkish men or women, which is ridiculous.

And I come close from Bremen, where we have huge issues with criminal Arab clans. You may want to visit some 'Hauptschule' (does that still exist or was it merged with 'Realschule'?) to actually see what it's like.

 

[Saiyan-Rox]

Pictures from Gatwick

Hopefully just them being cautious and there is not real threat.

so far i've heard a guy had a Grenade and or a gun and was tackled by armed police

But that was from Twitter so mega grain of salt and all.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

I think ISIS fears a secular, moderate, educated muslim more than any western bombs. Failed integration is their goal, fueling the hate of xenophobic bigots is their mission. They are trying to make it as hard as possible for muslims in the western world to coexist, because they know that mistreatment and discrimination is one sure way to push people over to fundamentalism. It's extremely cold and calculated.

Pretty much nailed it. Western civilisation needs to keep its cool, its hard of course when your enemy is citing a book that is followed by over a billion people worldwide, but the worst thing that can be done right now is basically push more muslims towards the ISIS agenda, basically doing what ISIS wants them to do.

European muslims must do their part too. If there is any sort of fundametalist or extremist ideas among muslim communities in europe they must work with the authorities to erradicate these ideas and banish these people from getting near to potential recruits.

 

[Lutherian]

1) They have grievances with current wars and unwavering support for Israel. They are warped individuals that are chastised by regular Muslims, and are isolated from them. It's not scripture but current affairs that corrupt them.
2) ?
3) Hate crime against muslims have increased 10 fold, in UK for instance police have created a new category for hate crime known has anti Muslim, which will be treated the same as anti-semitic
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/13/police-must-record-anti-muslim-hate-crimes

Just after Charlie Hebdo events in January, some fools throw grenades in a almost ten (or more...) Mosques. But the info wasn't relayed by a lot of the press. I'm afraid of what will happen now.

I have African, Morrocan and Algerian friends and one of my ex is a muslim and I fear for them.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

So how likely is it that France will send in ground troops into Syria and Iraq?

 

[zsynqx]

so far i've heard a guy had a Grenade and or a gun and was tackled by armed police

But that was from Twitter so mega grain of salt and all.

Yer didn't want to post stuff like that until we get official confirmation. The News sites I follow all said more to come so things should become clearer soon.

 

[Majukun]

I didn't mean the refugees speaking out. I mean the muslims who are 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation in the UK, France, Germany etc.

Lots of conservative views pop up there and that's something I don't understand. They mostly speak the language and hold the citizenship of the country they are in, yet still have some weird views.

well,conservative view are not that strange..hell here in europe in many countries gay marriage is still illegal because some guy interprets literally what the bible says...the "problem" with ISIS is exactly that...,they interpret the koran/quran to the letter,so while the majority of muslims don't like them,they can't say they are 100% wrong without going against his own religion and beliefs

jut like with christians and the bible there are an infinite numbers of different interpretations of the koran/quran and the religion that stems from it..so many can be conservative,but still not totally fucking insane like the isis guys..although even calling them crazy it might be a mistake too..some of them are totallu lucid..just exceedingly "militant"

even though,i the end,i can't shake the feeling that in the end,someone is doin this for money and power before religion

 

[2San]

What?! Are you serious? Have you ever been to Germany? Just go out on the street and take a look around. Based on what you are saying, you should not see any elderly Turkish men or women, which is ridiculous.

The elderly Turkish are the first generation. You where talking about the third and fourth generation.

 

[Iriscomeback]

So how likely is it that France will send in ground troops into Syria and Iraq?

Not without NATO support.

 

[ecosse_011172]

I read it as sarcasm.

It doesn't make a lot of sense as sarcasm, it makes far more sense read as is.

 

[typist]

Keeping tabs is not spying on them. For most, it's trying to know where they live, etc. Mostly public data.

DGSE (french internal secret services) has far more data on individuals, you'll be on a file just because you know someone working on a nuclear site, e. g. I'm pretty sure they have data on me.

As far as those 5000 are concerned, they have little powers in terms of spying them. A judge has to approve in advance anything the police wants to do, and they require a reason. Just them beeing on those S files isn't sufficient.

That makes trying to follow the couple dozen most dangerous ones a nearly impossible task. For this reason, a recent law suggested that you could get broaders powers in some case, meaning that you could in very specific cases put microphones in houses or tracker on cars without a judge authorization, provided those decision would be scrutinized afterwards.

I don't think there's much issues with innocent people privacy. A lot of the most dangerous of those 5000 have had legal troubles, spend years in jail, spend years in Syria or tried to, tried propaganda, etc. After some time, even if you're 'innocent', you expect the police to keep an eye on you...

Ah, my bad, thanks for the clarification. Glad to know France doesn't violate privacy as casually as others.

 

[Saiyan-Rox]

Yer didn't want to post stuff like that until we get official confirmation. The News sites I follow. all said more to come so things should become clearer soon.

Yeah lets hope it's nothing and just precaution

 

[Koren]

What?! Are you serious? Have you ever been to Germany? Just go out on the street and take a look around. Based on what you are saying, you should not see any elderly Turkish men or women, which is ridiculous.

For people of fourth generation to be grown-ups, you need their ancestors to come before the second world war.

I have no idea of the german situation, but most people coming from countries outside Europe here in large numbers came after WW2, I'd say.

 

[hipsterpants]

I feel so awful being relieved that it's only 120 and not the 150 that I saw earlier. This fucking world man...

 

[Jonm1010]

I see you point, but still you have democratic countries with HUGE populations like Pakistan among them. Another thing that irks me is that even the West indirectly supports this radical mindset by happily making business with these countries (but let's send official condolences for Charlie Hebdo even though our business partner would have executed them on the spot...).
The idea of doing terrorist acts (or any atrocities) for Allah should be as ridiculous as current Christian extremists going on crusades. But it's still not, for too many people in the world while other people quietly tolerate it.

I wouldn't exactly call Pakistan a functioning democracy:

"Until 2013, Pakistan did not experience even one democratic transfer of power from one democratically elected government that had completed its tenure to another. All of its previous democratic transitions have been aborted by military coup ."

 

[Shiggy]

The elderly Turkish are the first generation. You where talking about the third and fourth generation.

Yes? You were saying the fourth didn't exist and the third generation are just young kids. Don't think your logic works, right?

Friends of mine (20-30) have kids (4. generation), their parents are 50-60 (2. generation), with their grandparents being around 80 (1. generation).

Maybe that makes it clearer.

 

[Wellscha]

The elderly Turkish are the first generation. You where talking about the third and fourth generation.

They're the least integrated.

 

[C4Lukins]

Influence/Power. A lot of it is dressed up as respectable investment (buying up Harrods etc) in other places (Greece where they've quietly been buying up as much as possible) theres nefarious intentions. Libya could potentially be one of the greatest countries in the world it has literally everything it needs

So they win the World Cup, and then they finance attacks on the Western world? That is the plot of a bad James Bond film.

Even in that scenario, they would wait until the World Cup to engage their masterplan. And even then what does it accomplish. A war between Islam and the West, essentially no trade and a blockade of money into the country. They go from an emerging power to a essentially modern Iraq overnight. It is not sensible at any level.

Edit: I apologize. I lost myself for a moment there. This tragedy is bigger then a bunch of nonsensical conspiracy bullshit.

 

[Koren]

Ah, my bad, thanks for the clarification. Glad to know France doesn't violate privacy as casually as others.

The law that grants extended powers to the police in specific cases has been a hot debate, even after the january attacks.

 

[Klyka]

What?! Are you serious? Have you ever been to Germany? Just go out on the street and take a look around. Based on what you are saying, you should not see any elderly Turkish men or women, which is ridiculous.

And I come close from Bremen, where we have huge issues with criminal Arab clans. You may want to visit some 'Hauptschule' (does that still exist or was it merged with 'Realschule'?) to actually see what it's like.

I'm from Bremen too, I actually deal with "Miris" every day at my job. Shake hands and all.
Kinda surreal sometimes but they've never been anything but friendly with me.

 

[Pterion]

But not every country ever bombed to hell (and there are quite a few) later turned to be a haven of fundamentalism of some flavour. So there must be more to it than "the West".

Seriously. There are plenty of dirt-poor, systemically-abused ethnic groups in the world who aren't resorting to this level of violence to solve their issues.

 

[BaronLundi]

NOTE TO PARIS/FRANCE GAF

Most hospitals cannot deal with influx of blood donors right now (but check your local center to be sure). On the other hand they will need a lot of blood donations during the coming week in order to restock.

Dude, Les Halles five minutes ago :

On a Saturday at 11:30 AM.

Glad to see you're safe.

From where I am the city feels like an especially quiet January 1st.

And likewise : )

 

[Shiggy]

For people of fourth generation to be grown-ups, you need their ancestors to come before the second world war.

I have no idea of the german situation, but most people coming from countries outside Europe here in large numbers came after WW2, I'd say.

I never said the fourth generation were grown ups. I also don't say the first generation started their lives in Germany or that the second generation was born in Germany. That was not the case.

But I guess I should reference some study:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik...-jeder-fuenfte-kann-kaum-deutsch/3415072.html

Says integration mostly going well, only big issues with Turkish population where every 5th speaks German badly.

Edit: sorry for going off topic, I'm out for now.

 

[Foffy]

Damn, worst fears realized. If this turns out to be France's/Europe's equivalent of 9/11 I do hope whatever response is done with the utmost wisdom; we don't need a repeat of having the anger and sadness of those that suffered to be exploited.

Human beings seldom act in reason, so I unfortunately wish to remind you to assume the worst, here.

 

[Sijil]

So how likely is it that France will send in ground troops into Syria and Iraq?

Beyond specops team to support Peshmerga units, I don't think we'll be seeing the French army or Foreign Legion in the Levant en masse any time soon unless they can reach some sort of detente with the Russians, Syrians and Iranians since they have to go through them in order to operate effectively in Syria and Iraq.