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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.

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ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
The vast majority of suicide attacks pre 2001 were motivated by nationalistic reasons.

Which attacks are you referring to specifically? Things like burning yourself in political protest? Do you have numbers about the frequency of suicide attacks in the past?

It is only after 2001 has there been a huge increase in religiously motivated attacks. I don't see how you can argue that thousands of years old religions are the reason.

I didn't argue that religion is the sole reason why we observe a spike in suicidal attacks specifically. I claim that the expectation of paradise significantly contributes to making suicide attacks attractive.
 

acrid

Banned
http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-pa...-explosait-dans-mon-bras_4809665_4809495.html

An interesting video here of people escaping the Bataclan (concert hall). Warning it might be shocking for some of you.

I hear shouting in between the gunshots... to me it sounds like 'on the ground' but I have a feeling it's something else not in English (I don't speak any other languages). Does anyone know?

This is fucking horrible...

Are those .. dead bodies on the ground?
Jesus Christ.
Christ, also noticed people hanging out of the windows.
 

Raist

Banned
At least one guy was lucky because of his phone. Video and more images in the link.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/paris-a...-outside-stade-de-france-20151114-gkz3ok.html





wtmBp1f.png

I really doubt a phone can stop a bullet.
Lucky guy, either way.
 
BBC News - Greece claiming one of the Syrian suspects passed through a Greek island earlier this year.

I really hope this password thing ends up being an intentional deception, otherwise the refugee crisis is about to get a lot worse.
yeah, this is shit news/information to come out. my facebook feed is going to get ugly.
 

Apathy

Member
Which attacks are you referring to specifically? Things like burning yourself in political protest? Do you have numbers about the frequency of suicide attacks in the past?



I didn't argue that religion is the sole reason why we observe a spike in suicidal attacks specifically. I claim that the expectation of paradise significantly contributes to making suicide attacks attractive.


He might mean something like the Tamil tigers
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
I really doubt a phone can stop a bullet.
Lucky guy, either way.

If that was indeed a bullet, it probably hit the phone at an angle and was deflected by it. In that case, it probably saved him only from a grazing shot.
 

azyless

Member
The guy in the Le Monde video who keeps shouting “WHAT'S HAPPENING?” to the people running on the street is embarrassing.
Embarassing really ? People are getting gunned down right outside his window I think he's earned the right to be a little panicked.
fyi he also got injured while he was in the street helping out people. Embarassing, indeed.
 

Kraftwerk

Member
Preface : This might come off as a "first world problems" in regards to the tragedy in Paris, but its the best example I can use to convey my point.

-----

I was talking to a friend about computer parts since I am in need of a hard-drive. he told me to wait for the sale coming in a few weeks so I get a better deal. He said there is a sale on Friday and the Monday after. I started browsing different tech forums to see what deal people are talking about, and one topic was popping up a few times;

People were hesitant to call the Friday sale "Black Friday" anymore. Just saying it and I get this uneasy feeling in my stomach. It just doesn't feel right, as if I have committed a sacrilege.

That's the whole point of these terror attacks though. This is why they go for big body count numbers. Its not because they are 'killing more infidels' or that 'god would be proud of them', its merely more numbers to them which just multiplies the fear factor. I feel sick because as soon as I heard they had taken hostages, I knew it was done for most of them. Because what would their demands be? it was never a hostage situation. it was a slaughter form the start.

If you think back and analyse the past decade, every time a terror attack has happened, they chip away at people psychologically. It creates a sense of dread in the environment. People don't trust each other, they don't say certain things, don't remember certain things, trauma etc...This is how they get to us and try to 'win'.

I don't know what the solution is, but it really needs to stop. Its just going to get worse. What a lot of people need to realize is that ISIS is not like Al-Qaeda/Taliban. One of their core beliefs is that they will bring on the end of the world and cleanse everything. How do you even fight that?

one more thing,

To all the people who keep posting and sharing all these links about how "X number of people died in Beirut" or some other country, and that we should be praying for them instead, or how people in the western countries don't care about death unless it affects them;

How about instead of using this tragedy to convey your ridiculous point, you instead say something such as "Hey Paris, we stand with you and your tragedy, we know how you feel as we go through this on a daily basis. So lets work together to make sure this doesn't happen to either of us again"


sorry about ranting, had to get that off my chest. as someone from the middle east whenever something like this happens i get sick.
 
This is all a truly horrible situation :(
My Grand-Aunts would tell me the horrors of living in Syria (luckily they're now residing in Cyprus!) after having no water, electricity or communication for weeks. Staying always on alert because of the constant bombing and shootings... Their beautiful home now reduced to rubble :(
They're in Cyprus with family so its safe but to think that this is the constant fear the refugee's had to live with every day... I just can't believe that people like ISIS exist...
 

coleco

Member
There's going to be a necessary evil of having to screen/monitor/keep tabs on asylum seekers. I'd rather have that than not letting them in at all.

It's proper asylum process, nothing new. It doesn't mean refugees will be left out, it's simply not being completely naive about circumstances and following protocol. There's a country taken by terrorist factions of all kinds so it shouldn't be surprising that if ~800k refugees make it to the EU a few bad apples with a plan will take the opportunity to infiltrate.

Also, if people look at a map see where Syria is they will find out there are plenty of countries midway without war problems where the refugees can set up and wait until their asylum petition is processed. All this has been managed in horrible and irresponsible fashion.

Petitioning for asylum is not some immediate carte blanche and many get refused daily for plenty of motives. I really don't know where everybody got this idea that it was some instant magic process that can't be turned down.
 

GYODX

Member
Yup.

Detractors have got their excuse now.
Yeah we should just sit around and wait until we have a couple hundred more deaths' worth of an excuse.

Precisely what the opponents of unbridled immigration have said would happen, happened. Leftists, however, will continue to brand their political opponents as racist and deny that their concerns are legitimate. UKIP and other right-wing parties will consequently enjoy a surge in support and popularity.
 

orochi91

Member
Yeah we should just sit around and wait until we have a couple hundred more deaths' worth of an excuse.

Precisely what the opponents of unbridled immigration have said would happen, happened. Leftists, however, will continue to brand their political opponents as racist and deny that their concerns are legitimate. UKIP and other right-wing parties will consequently enjoy a surge in support and popularity.

My thoughts on the matter mirror this:

There's going to be a necessary evil of having to screen/monitor/keep tabs on asylum seekers. I'd rather have that than not letting them in at all.

Saying people should be just let in and damn the consequences is reckless and is going to galvanize detractors when the odd terrorist invariably goes through. That's not the answer.

Sad situation all around.

If refugees are turned back, ISIS wins. Plain and simple.
 

Xando

Member
Wow

PARIS—At least one of the attackers outside France’s national soccer stadium had a ticket to the game and attempted to enter the 80,000-person venue, according to a Stade de France security guard who was on duty and French police.

The guard—who asked to be identified only by his first name, Zouheir—said the attacker was discovered wearing an explosives vest when he was frisked at the entrance to the stadium about 15 minutes into the game. France was playing an exhibition against Germany inside.

While attempting to back away from security, Zouheir said, the attacker detonated the vest. Zouheir, who was stationed by the players’ tunnel, said he was briefed on the sequence by the security frisking team at the gate.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/attacker-tried-to-enter-paris-stadium-but-was-turned-away-1447520571
 
You say Assad is the best solution but he and his government are the ones that escalated the violence. The protests in Daraa wouldn't have even happened if his crony's first reaction to kids saying things against the government were to rip off their fingernails. Furthermore Baathist parties like to pretend they are secular when in reality they are sectarian, with Assad's government having a heavy shiite bent.

I agree, Assad is no saint. But the situation got out of control in Syria once the situation exploded in Iraq (taking down Saddam and putting a pro Iran Shiia as Prime Minister) and Libya (Taking down Gaddafi), this people weren't saints but they had the situation under control thanks to actually understanding the ethnicity and religious divisions in their own country and region.

Currently the situation can't be solved by invading ISIS and installing a puppet government like in Iraq. The Syrian situation is now the same as Iraq 10 years ago. How are you going to back in this conflict? How do you solve it? How do you keep in check Sunni extremist? America is being really naive (again) or deliberately trying to completely destabilize the region (again).

Yeah lest take down Assad and Iran and then put some Shiia puppet governments that with democracy, unicorns and rainbows will establish a lasting peaceful democratic society without understanding that Sunni Kurds may revolt against them or that Sunnis are a majority in Syria and the most extremist will revolt just like in Iraq. Also the lost of Iran wouldn't come so easily and unscratched in the region as the majority of Shia Iranians will see the rise of new Sunni insurrections all over the place and may want to start their own rebellions as a method of self defense after the fall of the biggest Shia state in the region.

There is no clear answer into what would happen if you let Assad fall. But if he is in place you can at least stop worrying about Syria for a while and start to fight ISIS and the Kurds in Iraq, Lebannon and Lybia.

Later you could see how you could top down Assad or worrying about the the cold war between the Saudis and Iran.
 

Mentat

Banned
Just what exactly does ISIS want to achieve? I swear there's still a question mark over it no?

No, there's no question at all. It's Islamism. Imposing Islamic law throughout the world, through political or violent means. It's no secret, they've said it loudly and repeatedly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Goals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Ideology_and_beliefs

http://www.blueforcetracker.com/article/Ten-revealing-quotes-from-ISIS
 

Kinyou

Member
There's going to be a necessary evil of having to screen/monitor/keep tabs on asylum seekers. I'd rather have that than not letting them in at all.

Saying people should be just let in and damn the consequences is reckless and is going to galvanize detractors when the odd terrorist invariably goes through. That's not the answer.

Sad situation all around.

If refugees are turned back, ISIS wins. Plain and simple.
The question is how feasible that is, but it's definitely the preferred solution.
 

azyless

Member
One of the Bataclan guys confirmed to be french apparently (source). The other one probably is as well, given what some witnesses have said. Unsurprising but sad.
 

C0unter

Member
Which attacks are you referring to specifically? Things like burning yourself in political protest? Do you have numbers about the frequency of suicide attacks in the past?

The Tamil tigers, the Chinese dare to die corps, the IRA during the troubles. Probably more I cant remember.

As for frequency over time, there's this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Afghanistan_suicide_bomb_attacks_incl_non-detonated_2002-2008_UNAMA_red.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Suicide-attacks-cpost-bigger-font.JPG

I didn't argue that religion is the sole reason why we observe a spike in suicidal attacks specifically. I claim that the expectation of paradise significantly contributes to making suicide attacks attractive.

Yea, I agree with you. Radical interpretation of religious texts is used to motivate and justify these barbaric acts.
 
yeah we figured this much, that is why the vest went off outside, killing only their bombers. It could have been worse if the 2 vest made it to the stadium or waited for the exit in the subway station

1 person other than the terrorists died in St-Denis. Dunno if it's one of the guards or someone in the streets.
 

Dynedom

Member
The question is how feasible that is, but it's definitely the preferred solution.

It has to be made feasible, somehow. It won't be cheap and will involve more resources than detractors would like (which in a way is anything greater than $0 so who cares) but it's vital imho.

Making refugees feel isolated and alone is exactly what ISIS wants. if you have no options but to join or die, you don't really have options.
 

Crosseyes

Banned
The question is how feasible that is, but it's definitely the preferred solution.
The process coming in has to be difficult for screening. Lot of people coming with nothing. Most work will have to be done after theyre let in, profiling and surveiling them for a long time post-entry. They just cant be trusted with the same civil liberties after entering. Its not worth the risk.
 
People should see it and not hide their eyes from this. People need to see the horror.

Agreed, just like how people didn't really seem overly bothered about the migrant crisis until they saw the photo of the dead boy on the beach.

An image can be more powerful to many people than any headline or paragraph.
 
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