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[Jag]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/w...onfronts-the-jihadist-danger-within.html?_r=0

This gives some more information. Molenbeek always been a problem zone for these kinds of things.

When Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the Belgian-born son of an immigrant shopkeeper from Morocco, went to Syria a year ago to wage jihad, nobody paid much attention.

Hopefully people will start paying more attention.

This incident has me attempting to re-consider this ISIS issue as a whole. Some have said it is the most dangerous warfare of our time... would you guys consider ISIS harder to defeat then, say, the Nazis or Japanese? Of course the aforementioned forces resulted in a full on war, but combating ISIS requires something different then simple explosions and overwhelming through numbers.

ISIS is based on an ideology. It's not a beachhead you can storm. The problem with fighting the ideology is it is based on things in Islamic culture that many people believe in, even though they are against violence. So yes, I think it is much harder than just beating a country into submission. Humans are pretty good at that.

An Arab GAFfer put it well earlier, if you try to speak out against the ideology, you risk being labeled a "kafir" an unbeliever.

 

[iMax]

I mean, if you were a suicide bomber, wouldn't it be?

Surely that's the first thing they learn at suicide bomber school.

If 24 has taught me anything, they use cellphone triggers too. Best thing they could do would be to suspend all GSM transmissions in the local area.

 

[Jonm1010]

That's start up imperialism.

Absolutely. Not just start-up, imperialism on a level we have pretty much never seen in our lifetimes. Actively trying to change every fabric of a society at gun point. And not just one society, all of the Middle East.

 

[Shuggananas]

Is that standard practice with these types of bombs?

Probably not but can't take the risk

This sad event makes people go nuts and say the stupidest things though.

 

[TheRealTalker]

Nope. I'm saying go to those countries and make them like Turkey (ideally without a brown equivalent of Erdoğan). I want every Muslim country to be as economically and socially "Westernised" (brackets emphasised) as Turkey. I don't see any other way to do it except by hitting the Islamist Militants hard. That's how we solved the Nazis isn't it?

or you just attack key places the provide such groups with money like ISIS owned oil wells or cracking down on ISIS trade routes, embargoes, etc....

 

[LeBart]

Awful. My condolences.

Thank you.

 

[UnObtainium17]

http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-pa...-explosait-dans-mon-bras_4809665_4809495.html

An interesting video here of people escaping the Bataclan (concert hall). Warning it might be shocking for some of you.

Aw shit I wasn't ready.... Damn imagine dragging a dying friend to safety

 

[xir]

not to be that guy, but this isn't the eiffel tower.

In January we went to Europe for two weeks, and the day we landed, met up with a friend and ate at that Cambodian restaurant. It sits like maybe 20 people. This all insane.

 

[DXLelouch153]

No tolerance. Instant death penalty - immediately shoot them in the head? Obviously that's very extreme. I don't know either.

um i meant incase theres a deadman switch
a headshot wont fix that problem

 

[Joni]

Hopefully people will start paying more attention.

The article is stupid. People in Belgium pay attention. We hope to see them bombed in Syria. Our intelligence service is tracking tens to hundreds Syria fighters.

 

[Shuggananas]

not to be that guy, but this isn't the eiffel tower.

Uh... what ?

 

[Klyka]

not to be that guy, but this isn't the eiffel tower.

In January we went to Europe for two weeks, and the day we landed, met up with a friend and ate at that Cambodian restaurant. It sits like maybe 20 people. This all insane.

What isn't the eiffel tower?

 

[weekev]

This incident has me attempting to re-consider this ISIS issue as a whole. Some have said it is the most dangerous warfare of our time... would you guys consider ISIS harder to defeat then, say, the Nazis or Japanese? Of course the aforementioned forces resulted in a full on war, but combating ISIS requires something different then simple explosions and overwhelming through numbers.

I think the main problem is actually figuring out how to beat them. Any strike on ISIS makes them stronger as it gives more people a reason to join their "cause". Failing to take action allows them control of the territory they are occupying.

Diplomacy wont work with a group of people who are convinced the war against infidels will result in glorious rewards in the afterlife.

Killing those that preach this mesdage causes 3 more to take their place.

 

[FyreWulff]

If 24 has taught me anything, they use cellphone triggers too. Best thing they could do would be to suspend all GSM transmissions in the local area.

And when the bomb detects no tower signal it goes off as a failsafe.

that's why suicide bombs are so scary, because you can't really do anything other than make them detonate BEFORE they get near a bunch of people.

 

[DXLelouch153]

or you just attack key places the provide such groups with money like ISIS owned oil wells or cracking down on ISIS trade routes, embargoes, etc....

this
guerilla tactics
ISIS cant do shit if their resources are taken away

 

[Kabouter]

Nope. I'm saying go to those countries and make them like Turkey (ideally without a brown equivalent of Erdoğan). I want every Muslim country to be as economically and socially "Westernised" (brackets emphasised) as Turkey. I don't see any other way to do it except by hitting the Islamist Militants hard. That's how we solved the Nazis isn't it?

I don't see how this is realistic. Modernism worked better in Turkey than in most places because it had been oriented towards Europe for centuries, and would have been affected by certain superior values. Plus, its drive towards modernism was an internal revolution. I doubt very much Turkey would be where it is today had the West decided to impose its values on it. Either way, clearly the conditions are not similar for the Arab Muslim world.

My girlfriend's brother lost two friends at the attack on rue de Charonne. She also was a regular at La Belle Équipe before I met her and knew some of the staff there.

This is incredily hard.

Sorry to hear that, my condolences.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

This incident has me attempting to re-consider this ISIS issue as a whole. Some have said it is the most dangerous warfare of our time... would you guys consider ISIS harder to defeat then, say, the Nazis or Japanese? Of course the aforementioned forces resulted in a full on war, but combating ISIS requires something different then simple explosions and overwhelming through numbers.

Yes because you don't know who they are or where.

 

[Always-honest]

I've had enough of these god damned terror attacks. That's the long and short of it. I've never felt as sad over a terror attack as I do for this one. Even the recent bombings in Turkey didn't leave me this upset and reactionary.

Same here but come on.

Edit: well, reading that Putin is sending 150.000 soldiers...

 

[BlazingDarkness]

I think the main problem is actually figuring out how to beat them. Any strike on ISIS makes them stronger as it gives more people a reason to join their "cause". Failing to take action allows them control of the territory they are occupying.

Diplomacy wont work with a group of people who are convinced the war against infidels will result in glorious rewards in the afterlife.

Killing those that preach this mesdage causes 3 more to take their place.

Yeah, diplomacy won't work with ISIS because they believe political engagement undermines Gods complete authority, so they consider it an act of apostasy. This is the problem we have facing ISIS, their ideology is on a medieval level, they can't be engaged like a modern enemy, and they can't be educated.

 

[Drifters]

My girlfriend's brother lost two friends at the attack on rue de Charonne. She also was a regular at La Belle Équipe before I met her and knew some of the staff there.

This is incredily hard.

Prayers for you my friend.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

In some hope for good news, 20 foreign ministers happen to be meeting in Vienna to discuss what to do in Syria and this attack seems to be have pressed them to be be more likely to cooperate with each other. Just judging by the public statement from Kerry and Lavrov, this could be a breakthrough moment.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Yes because you don't know who they are or where.

They have infrastructure and free to perform guerilla warfare. That's as much as we know. If anything, even if you somehow sever a group, since they all have the same kind of beliefs, it's easy for that branch to be cut off (even if it's the head) and just resume like business is usual.

It's all got to be shut down at the same time, which takes a huge co-operative effort, especially from neighbouring governments in the vicinity whose role will be to prevent another extremist faction from growing again (and hopefully not in oppressive means as that will just cause it to happen again).

 

[Jonm1010]

As bad as the Iraq invasion turned out, it wasnt inherently doomed to fail:if the Americans had secured the borders and been more moderate in their application of "deBaathification" (which alienated the Sunni minority) they may have prevented the carnage that broke out.

And occupying the ISIS "caliphate" wouldnt be about "forcing western values" on the population, it would be about putting an end to a regime that promotes sexual slavery, commits mass executions, threatens ethnic minorities with genocide and exports a fanatic terrorist ideology to rest of the world.

Well what you are calling for is a different strategy then the one the person I was speaking to is arguing.

You are advocating temporary occupation with the specific goal of eradicating the structural network of Isis, placing a new government in place where it is required and then handing the reigns back over to the locals. Letting the chips fall where they might. At least that is what I gather?

A different strategy for sure. With its own inherent problems some of which are shared with the earlier suggestion of full scale cultural imperialism.

One of the biggest problems in Syria for instance is that there are no good alternatives. You have Assad, you have Isis and you have a bunch of weak splinter groups that as far as I know are not really ideal to support for one reason or another. You also have the problem all occupiers have when they put in charge their favored group: blowback against the occupiers and the leadership for being a puppet government. Which they wouldn't exactly be wrong for. Any wrong that new leadership does also becomes a reflection of the westerners who installed it in the minds of those who fall victim to it.

That's also before mentioning Russia's support of Assad and the can of worms that can open up.

 

[xir]

What isn't the eiffel tower?

just how it feels more personal, than if a major landmark had been attacked, where millions of people have been. It really does make you think it could be anywhere. Probably didn't help I was mugged last Sunday at 7pm on a busy street that a cop car was parked on. Nowhere is truly safe

 

[DXLelouch153]

just how it feels more personal, than if a major landmark had been attacked, where millions of people have been. It really does make you think it could be anywhere. Probably didn't help I was mugged last Sunday at 7pm on a busy street that a cop car was parked on. Nowhere is truly safe

sorry to hear that
was the cop sleeping?

 

[FlyingSaucer]

I don't see how this is realistic. Modernism worked better in Turkey than in most places because it had been oriented towards Europe for centuries, and would have been affected by certain superior values. Plus, its drive towards modernism was an internal revolution. I doubt very much Turkey would be where it is today had the West decided to impose its values on it. Either way, clearly the conditions are not similar for the Arab Muslim world.

People speak of religion, but negligate the importance of culture : Turkey, or Iran/Persia for that matter, have known a culture of the state for centuries. Modernization work poorly in countries where tribal logics are still in full effect.

 

[TheJLC]

And when the bomb detects no tower signal it goes off as a failsafe.

that's why suicide bombs are so scary, because you can't really do anything other than make them detonate BEFORE they get near a bunch of people.

You watch too many movies. Most bombs are crude and don't have failsafes. If anything blocking all signals from cellphone, radio, gps, etc from a location is the most common way of temporarily rendering a ied inert while a robot or bomb tech renders a device safe.

In Iraq and Afghanistan, most convoys have signal blocking/jamming to block trigger signals. LE around the world now have similar devices to block signals to a bomb.

 

[theignoramus]

ISIS is based on an ideology. It's not a beachhead you can storm. .

Actually it is, sort of. The fact that they control and govern physical territory theyve declared their own nation-state is giving their ideology greater legitimacy and moral authority in the eyes of their supporters. Apparently a pre-requisite to realizing their apocalyptic ideals is actually governing a nation state.

 

[acrid]

I heard that the Deftones were in the crowd last night and were supposed to launch a tour at Bataclan tonight.

 

[Jacksinthe]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...tacks-isil-suspects-arrests-victims-live.html



My god...

Reading this feels like someone took a blender to the inside of my skull.

I can't honestly describe how it makes me feel. I don't believe there are words appropriate for the sadness, rage and utter uselessness I'm feeling right now.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

And you think trying to forcibly convert people to a new culture (and religion, I assume) would make things better and not worse. Okay.

Well, hey, it worked for _______________________*



























*insert any civilization in the history of ever where this actually worked

 

[JordanN]

The NATO "Crusade" (I guess Turks are also heathens according to ISIS) needs to happen. Iraq and Syria should be under forceful Western rule. We should force them into Western culture, roads, buildings, mindset like they force Sharia on the population.

3rd time's the charm!

 

[RoyalFool]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

 

[GoldenEye 007]

3rd time's the charm!

Was there really ever a plan for Iraq? That situation was entered into over lies and the Bush administration's hardon for taking out Saddam at whatever cost. I feel like the aftermath wasn't really planned that well and it was grossly underestimated of what it would really take to establish stability.

 

[segasonic]

I heard that the Deftones were in the crowd last night and were supposed to launch a tour at Bataclan tonight.

omg, are they ok?

 

[Square2015]

Has this been posted yet? One of the attackers looks to have been a Syrian refugee:

From Yahoo News

A Syrian passport found on the body of one of the attackers belonged to someone who had crossed into the European Union as a refugee, through the Greek island of Leros, in October, a Greek official told ABC News.

In a statement on the Ministry’s website, Citizen Protection Minister Nikos Toskas said, "The passport holder had passed from Leros on Oct. 3. where he was identified based on EU rules. ... We do not know if the passport was checked by other countries through which the holder likely passed."

The passport was found at the Stade de France stadium, one of the six attacked sites.

Eight attackers are dead, and seven died detonating suicide vests, according to Agence France-Presse, citing police. A Syrian passport was found on the body of an attacker near one of the attack sites, the Stade de France stadium, police told ABC News. At least one of the gunmen has been identified, a French government official told ABC News.

 

[Ganhyun]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

The most denouncement I've seen is basically the equivalent of a twitter post or facebook post and things continue on as they are now.

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

Why don't western countries fly Iraq/Syria/Lebanon/Pakistan/Yemen/Afghanistan flags every time a terrorist attack occurs there?

 

[theignoramus]

Well what you are calling for is a different strategy then the one the person I was speaking to is arguing.

You are advocating temporary occupation with the specific goal of eradicating the structural network of Isis, placing a new government in place where it is required and then handing the reigns back over to the locals. Letting the chips fall where they might. At least that is what I gather?

A different strategy for sure. With its own inherent problems some of which are shared with the earlier suggestion of full scale cultural imperialism.

I believe it to be the least bad of all the less than ideal options we have.

 

[Empty]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

 

[FyreWulff]

You watch too many movies. Most bombs are crude and don't have failsafes. If anything blocking all signals from cellphone, radio, gps, etc from a location is the most common way of temporarily rendering a ied inert while a robot or bomb tech renders a device safe.

In Iraq and Afghanistan, most convoys have signal blocking/jamming to block trigger signals. LE around the world now have similar devices to block signals to a bomb.

I barely watch movies. Detecting signal strength is a basic function of the Android API. If you already are capable of setting up cell phone detonation, it would take you all of five minutes to set up the signal strength failsafe.

 

[Jonm1010]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

I mean many did and are:

http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/

But more importantly do you think all Christians needed to come out and denounce Timothy McVeigh? Or every action of the Lords Resistence Army?

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Why don't western countries fly Iraq/Syria/Lebanon/Pakistan/Yemen/Afghanistan flags every time a terrorist attack occurs there?

Presumably he's talking about Muslims in Western countries, I.e French mosques

 

[justjohn]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

Why should they? When that white dude killed the black churchgoers in South Carolina how many white people came out to apologize? They weren't responsible for the shooting then and neither are the 1.6b Muslims now.

 

[orochi91]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

Here you go, denouncement following the Charlie Hebdo attack:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/07/charlie-hebdo-killings-arab-states-jihadi-extremist-sympathisers-isis

Even now Muslim authorities are denouncing the attacks in Paris.

Next time do some research before posting bullshit.

 

[Shuggananas]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

They do, it's not mediatized

 

[Coins]

I heard that the Deftones were in the crowd last night and were supposed to launch a tour at Bataclan tonight.

There were a couple members in the crowd but left 15 minutes before the shooting started. They are all safe.

 

[Jonm1010]

I believe it to be the least bad of all the less than ideal options we have.

A likely quagmire with a potential for blowback that rivals Iraq and possible war with Russia in addition to a two front war against Assad and Isis is the best option you see?

Are you gonna be signing up to help?

 

[BlazingDarkness]

They do, it's not mediatized

Yeah I think this is the reason, it gets less exposure in the media

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Does anyone else feel ISIS just elected Donald Trump? I have no skin in the game...just wondering if that's been discussed or if anyone else has thought it.