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[Future PhaZe]

The kill one, three take their place thing is imo overrating their recruiting efforts by quite a bit.

A boots on the ground, focused, overwhelming ground force without remorse would destabilize the groups hierarchy, result in infighting, and potentially result in sections of the group to splinter off into competing organizations.

The problem is that I'm not sure that this is possible without unprecedented levels of collateral damage.

 

[Violet_0]

we can do something about ISIS - and I suspect a military operation backed by ground troops in Syria and Iraq is likely now - it's just that they don't necessarily require territory to operate and plan more terror attacks, just on a smaller scale, and should ISIS fall there are many more groups that will attract the same type of people from Middle East and Western countries. Assad is untouchable as long as Russia is supporting him and Syria might not be able to stabilize while he's around, but that's another matter

 

[mmazurkiewicz]

Why should they? When that white dude killed the black churchgoers in South Carolina how many white people came out to apologize? They weren't responsible for the shooting then and neither are the 1.6b Muslims now.

because ISIS is using Islam as their reason for doing this and the shooter in South Carolina did not?

I mean many did and are:

http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/

But more importantly do you think all Christians needed to come out and denounce Timothy McVeigh? Or every action of the Lords Resistence Army?

How man Timothy McVeigh attacks have there been compared to the number of ISIS attacks?

 

[superdeluxe]

Former NATO Supreme commander says NATO needs to hit ISIS hard, France is within right to initiate Article 5

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/14/natos-turn-to-attack-paris-terrorist-isis/

 

[orochi91]

This whole "Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this?" line of dialogue should be bannable at this point because people never do basic fucking research on the topic before shooting their mouths off.

Every.Single.Time.

It always pops up when these type of attacks happen, like, what the fuck?

Do you want me to give you a written apology on behalf of a cunt who did something atrocious thousands of miles away?

How are any Muslims, other than the perpetrators, responsible for that?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yeah I think this is the reason, it gets less exposure in the media

It would be good of Arab leaders condemn these attacks and get the same podium to do so as other European leaders. Put a media plan in place to have that message broadcast on all major newspaper websites at least. For now, if you don't search for it actively, it seems like everybody just stays silent, which is taken as not caring.

Does anyone else feel ISIS just elected Donald Trump? I have no skin in the game...just wondering if that's been discussed or if anyone else has thought it.

This is nonsense. It is not about the US elections, which are a year away anyway.

 

[segasonic]

there is only one way of dealing with ISIS and that is to kill them all

sad but true

 

[theignoramus]

A likely quagmire with a potential for blowback that rivals Iraq and possible war with Russia is the best option you see?

Are you gonna be signing up to help?

I should specify, I dont believe it would work without Russian consent and some measure of Iranian participation.

 

[justjohn]

because ISIS is using Islam as their reason for doing this and the shooter in South Carolina did not?



How man Timothy McVeigh attacks have there been compared to the number of ISIS attacks?

You can't be this stupid. I hope this is sarcasm.

 

[……forgetit]

Well my Facebook is filled to the brim with racism right now, damnit can't we come together in the face of a tragedy without someone saying "kick out the Muslims."

 

[TheRealTalker]

there is only one way of dealing with ISIS and that is to kill them all

sad but true

how about the civilians they have under their control..... many hostages and people held against their own will

what about them? How will we go about our way bombing them to extinction without killing those people.

 

[LNBL]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

Why are we expected to actively distance ourselves from it? Is it completely impossible to think that we also think these attacks are terrible and horrible?

 

[nillah]

We continue to trade and operate with the Middle East, knowing we have alternatives to oil.

 

[Blader]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

They do. All the time. Just because you're not paying attention to it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Does anybody have a link to an updated and confirmed body count? Not for the sake of morbidity, but I'm seeing different numbers everywhere I look and I'd like some accuracy.

 

[hohoXD123]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

Anecdotal sure but most of the people whom I know denouncing this are Muslims. If we're talking about a large protest, why is it suddenly their responsibility to do so though? The majority of the Muslim population simply don't associate themselves with these extremists, and any sane enough person should know that, so at the end of the day why would they be marching? To lessen the impact of the inevitable growth in far right movements? James O'brien puts it across better imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LKQnFJzyGo

 

[Maninthemirror]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

You should ask those Muslims who you think don't denounce it if they also don't denounce it when most of the victims of terrorism in the world today are in fact


..

Wait for it

..


MUSLIMS!!!


Muslims do denounce in large numbers and they don't need to send you everyone's denouncement on a silver platter so you are personally satisfied and they also don't need to apologize to you for this

 

[nillah]

there is only one way of dealing with ISIS and that is to kill them all

sad but true

Countries have bit the bullet and went to war over smaller things

 

[mmazurkiewicz]

You can't be this stupid. I hope this is sarcasm.

oh i'm stupid?

won't be responding to children anymore.

 

[f@luS]

Having 5000 of friends on Facebook with maybe 90% living in Paris doesn't help. Afaik nobody I know personally but many are writing RIP xxx and a close friend had a school buddy that died as well which I met once. Sad

 

[SmackAttack]

Well my Facebook is filled to the brim with racism right now, damnit can't we come together in the face of a tragedy without someone saying "kick out the Muslims."

I have one friend who wrote, and I quote here, "What about Syria though? White people get killed and the whole world sends their support...Something isn't right here"

I just don't get it.

 

[zeroOman]

Just curious, but how is going to war profitable? The Iraq war cost United States a lot of money.

But made some ppl more rich....

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

This is nonsense. It is not about the US elections, which are a year away anyway.

I think you're ostrich-necking a bit if you don't think this gives people like Trump more credibility with the public.

 

[Blader]

Fucking LOL @ anyone who thinks the solution to defeating ISIS is to forcibly westernize the Middle East.

Not only does that play exactly into their hand, but there is a literally centuries-long history of colonialism depicting how disastrous this is for millions of people, present and future.

 

[KooopaKid]

Do we know who is buying ISIS oil?

 

[hohoXD123]

Well my Facebook is filled to the brim with racism right now, damnit can't we come together in the face of a tragedy without someone saying "kick out the Muslims."

At least now you know who to cull from your friends list.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I think you're ostrich-necking a bit if you don't think this gives people like Trump more credibility with the public.

Only fools will give trump more credibility.

 

[chrizzz09]

or you just attack key places the provide such groups with money like ISIS owned oil wells or cracking down on ISIS trade routes, embargoes, etc....

Or instead of attacking things...just bring our western economies to move to more efficient environmental friendly energy resources like solar energy, wind, etc.

Devalue oil and it will be worth nothing more than their sand.

All their financial income will collapse and even the funding of their supporter countries and states will collapse.

All without dropping a single bomb.

If they see that they can't rely on their "natural resources" for income, they need to find other ways to get to money. History and economics showed us that countries without natural resources as a given are more likely to innovate ( - like Japan for example).

More innovation -> better education -> people won't get so easily manipulated -> radicalism slows down


(Yeah i know this would probably bring up some other forms of problems, but at least it would be a possibility)

Do we know who is buying ISIS oil?

Turkey -> rest of western world

 

[IceCold]

From the Atlantic article, it seems that ISIS goal is to create a caliphate and fulfill the end of times prophecy in the Qur'an. Unlike al-qaeda, that means they have to control territory and act as a government and can't hide 'underground'. Once ISIS declared a caliph, a swarm of jihadists started to arrive to the middle east and Isis controlled areas due to their belief in the prophecy. Seems like the first course of action should be to gain back control of Isis controlled territories to invalidate their caliphate.

What's hard is that you are also fighting an ideology. Many people are in denial but Islam is playing a big part in this. These guys are following the Qur'an literally, a book that was written in a time of war and bloodshed. I'm sure that similar barbarian acts would happen if you followed the Bible (especially old testament) literally too. This is what happens when you apply medieval era thinking to the modern world.

 

[……forgetit]

At least now you know who to cull from your friends list.

This is true, but family is an issue.

 

[Jonm1010]

It would be good of Arab leaders condemn these attacks and get the same podium to do so as other European leaders. Put a media plan in place to have that message broadcast on all major newspaper websites at least. For now, if you don't search for it actively, it seems like everybody just stays silent, which is taken as not caring.

The Arab world is not a monolithic movement that controls what and how the western media presents their news.

Furthermore why are we operating on this underlying assumption that the Muslim world as a whole needs to go out of their way above what other nations and leaders do every time a radical Islamist commits an act of violence?

Do you expect the same of every Christian leader when an abortion clinic gets attacked or the Lords Resistance Army terrorizes?

To me this only has any traction because there is a deep down feeling that most in the Islamic world condone these actions or that the Islamic population has an obligation to push back against those prejudiced westerners who deep down think it.

 

[SporeCrawler]

This incident has me attempting to re-consider this ISIS issue as a whole. Some have said it is the most dangerous warfare of our time... would you guys consider ISIS harder to defeat then, say, the Nazis or Japanese? Of course the aforementioned forces resulted in a full on war, but combating ISIS requires something different then simple explosions and overwhelming through numbers.

I think much of the war against al Quaida or now the ISIS teminds me of the Partisan War that was mentioned by Carl Schmitt as a part of his theory of war. War according to Schmitt was, until the first world war, always an affair between states. Soldiers are part of the state and are excercising state power. Until the first world war, at least in europe, was always between states and thus between soldiers. This did lead into seeing enemy soldiers not as criminals but only as part of an opposing force or faction. Furthermore the development of nuclear weapons led nuclear powers to prevent total wars against each other.

Schmitt predicted that the future war will be fought by irregulars (meaning non-soldiers and not belonging to an official state) that have highly individual political motivations that are, due to their irregularity also have an exceptional mobility (unlike armies, they can strike everywhere). While such partisans in the past have been tellurian (meaning defending militias that only were fightig against invaders) the change of the meanjng of war from a state against state affair to a struggle of ideas, schmitt saw the danger of them becomming global revolutionaries. Now you have it: irregular, non-controlable, highly motivated by political ideas, mobile and not bound to their territory in regard to their enemies, the "industrial partisan".

 

[Future PhaZe]

we can do something about ISIS - and I suspect a military operation backed by ground troops in Syria and Iraq is likely now - it's just that they don't necessarily require territory to operate and plan more terror attacks, just on a smaller scale, and should ISIS fall there are many more groups that will attract the same type of people from Middle East and Western countries. Assad is untouchable as long as Russia is supporting him and Syria might not be able to stabilize while he's around, but that's another matter

Its human nature for people to turn on each other when the shit hits the fan. If their hierarchy is damaged, infighting and damages within their communications is inevitable, and that can only help to prevent further attacks in combination with stronger border patrol policies.

I'm not saying it's easy. But ISIS isn't ULTRON.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

there is only one way of dealing with ISIS and that is to kill them all

sad but true

I agree, but nobody wants the blood on their hands that would come with it, and I can't blame them. People forget that we have seen videos of children committing executions for Isis. We've seen women join Isis to be wives to the coward fighters.

Is the world willing to have the blood of not only the Isis men, but women and children that have been indoctrinated in their fucked up belief system?

We've seen more than a handful of times of Isis fighters coming from western countries. Are we ready to do what it takes to stop the indoctrination and recruitment of people in western countries?

It's a difficult situation that has no right answer.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I think you're ostrich-necking a bit if you don't think this gives people like Trump more credibility with the public.

For elections a year away in a country on the other side of the ocean? I doubt it.

For European right wing parties, it will have an effect.

The Arab world is not a monolithic movement that controls what and how the western media presents their news.

Furthermore why are we operating on this underlying assumption that the Muslim world as a whole needs to go out of their way above what other nations and leaders do every time a radical Islamist commits an act of violence?

Do you expect the same of every Christian leader when an abortion clinic gets attacked or the Lords Resistance Army terrorizes?

To me this only has any traction because there is a deep down feeling that most in the Islamic world condone these actions or that the Islamic population has an obligation to push back against those prejudiced westerners who deep down think it.

I mostly meant that the Western press should give more attention when Muslims worldwide do condemn these attacks. Because clearly they do, but it gets no attention, leading to the perception of some people in the West that they either don't care or even support it. Which is clearly wrong. But since that isn't happening at the moment, it would be good for European Muslim leaders to have some organisation in place to prevent people from blaming them like right wing parties here love to do.

 

[……forgetit]

I have one friend who wrote, and I quote here, "What about Syria though? White people get killed and the whole world sends their support...Something isn't right here"

I just don't get it.

I've gotten similar things, it's a whole different kind of stupid, but still stupid. I also got "Trumps wall doesn't look so bad now, does it?" Good Lord -_-

 

[Byakuya769]

Exactly. Just cause you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

[RoyalFool]

This whole "Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this?" line of dialogue should be bannable at this point because people never do basic fucking research on the topic before shooting their mouths off.

Every.Single.Time. ?

isn't ban begging already a bannable offence?

You are also completely missing my point, the majority of people don't do research. What I'm saying is from my viewpoint, which is probably the view point of a lot of people who just live off the front-page news - we get told about the opera house lights, we get told about the world leaders coming together to denounce it. But I never see any muslim protests, I never see any mosques flying flags, I never see any Muslims in a queue to give blood. I don't know if western media are just being shite, or if it's not happening. But damn, a bit of positive PR about Muslims would be good right about now and I'm surprised nobody is making it happen.

 

[Shuggananas]

ISIS aren't doing what they're doing "for islam", it's a pretext and a gateway for recruits, what they do has nothing to do with religion, it's just killing random people out of hate

 

[Maninthemirror]

From the Atlantic article, it seems that ISIS goal is to create a caliphate and fulfill the end of times prophecy in the Qur'an. Unlike al-qaeda, that means they have to control territory and act as a government and can't hide 'underground'. Once ISIS declared a caliph, a swarm of jihadists started to arrive to the middle east and Isis controlled areas due to their belief in the prophecy. Seems like the first course of action should be to gain back control of Isis controlled territories to invalidate their caliphate.

What's hard is that you are also fighting an ideology. Many people are in denial but Islam is playing a big part in this. These guys are following the Qur'an literally, a book that was written in a time of war and bloodshed. I'm sure that similar barbarian acts would happen if you followed the Bible (especially old testament) literally too. This is what happens when you apply medieval era thinking to the modern world.

These guys are following an interpretation of the Quran which has been lambasted by most Muslims who have a way different intepretation. Stop the it's in the Quran as if it is . It's NOT the way Isis views it is and the way you are projecting it. There are way more adherent Muslims who are moderate than there are adherent Muslims who are extremists, this is something which too many people skip over conveniently

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Going to get shot down for this, but what the hell.

Why don't the majority of peaceful Muslims do more to denounce this? They are killing using their religion as justification, causing a huge amount of (misguided) resentment towards all Muslims.

It's the absolute silence by the larger Muslim community which scares me the most, because when the fear-mongers start saying that x percentage of even peaceful Muslims agree with it, I can't think of a single event to use as a counter argument.

I guess the ones who do protest are the ones so well integrated you simply don't realize they are Muslims, or high-up Muslims are denouncing it and our media are just not making a big deal about it. Why don't they fly some french flags from a mosque or something like the rest of the western world is doing

You know who doesn't like ISIS?

Al-Queda. That's how bad it is.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

I was happy to hear this morning, that the 129 death toll is significantly lower than the 160 number I heard yesterday. I was worried it would shoot past 200 or so.
Hopefully, no one else dies. RIP to those who did.

 

[KooopaKid]

Turkey -> rest of western world

Then when are we going to do something about it? It's the most cost effective measure. Making sure no-one is buying their oil.

 

[Always-honest]

I agree, but nobody wants the blood on their hands that would come with it, and I can't blame them.

True. But aparently Putin is on the motherfucker.
Sending more troops

 

[LNBL]

I understand the whole idea behind FB adding the flag filter for profile pictures, but is it not just another example of selective grievance?

 

[orochi91]

The Arab world is not a monolithic movement that controls what and how the western media presents their news.

Furthermore why are we operating on this underlying assumption that the Muslim world as a whole needs to go out of their way above what other nations and leaders do every time a radical Islamist commits an act of violence?

Do you expect the same of every Christian leader when an abortion clinic gets attacked or the Lords Resistance Army terrorizes?

To me this only has any traction because there is a deep down feeling that most in the Islamic world condone these actions or that the Islamic population has an obligation to push back against those prejudiced westerners who deep down think it.

Apparently, Muslims need to apologize en masse on a regular basis to ease the minds of some Westerners.

 

[Klyka]

Then when are we going to do something about it? It's the most cost effective measure. Making sure no-one is buying their oil.

We are buying their oil.

 

[davepoobond]

True. But aparently Putin is on the motherfucker.
Sending more troops

Except he is bombing everyone but ISIS

 

[BlazingDarkness]

ISIS aren't doing what they're doing "for islam", it's a pretext and a gateway for recruits, what they do has nothing to do with religion, it's just killing random people out of hate

Nonsense.

 

[Alucrid]

Or instead of attacking things...just bring our western economies to move to more efficient environmental friendly energy resources like solar energy, wind, etc.

Devalue oil and it will be worth nothing more than their sand.

All their financial income will collapse and even the funding of their supporter countries and states will collapse.

All without dropping a single bomb.

If they see that they can't rely on their "natural resources" for income, they need to find other ways to get to money. History and economics showed us that countries without natural resources as a given are more likely to innovate ( - like Japan for example).

More innovation -> better education -> people won't get so easily manipulated -> radicalism slows down


(Yeah i know this would probably bring up some other forms of problems, but at least it would be a possibility)



Turkey -> rest of western world

Japan also had the major investments made by the allies post ww2 which accounts for a lot of their position in the modern economy