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[C0unter]

People also need to realize a major difference between isis and other terrorist groups like Al qaede. isis actually runs a pseudo state and controls major cities, its not like they operate from random caves, they can actually be "bombed".

Unfortunately there aren't many competent forces against them. Assad is just as terrible and has largely ignored them, focusing on other rebels, same with Russia. The iraqi goverment is incredibly incompetent, and other rebel groups have also avoided them.

Fortunately there is the kurdish peshmerga which are supported by the coalition and just yesterday they were able to take back Sinjar.

Youtube is doing the same with the coloring the word Tube in French flag colors.

Same with facebook, pretty nice to scroll past your feed and see the tricolor on peoples profile pics.

 

[RoyalFool]

This thinking drips into hate for religion dripping further into hate for the Muslim way of living which is Islam which itself feeds and grows into prejudice, paranoia and some vent into
Completely bigotry. The Muhammad wasn't a nice guy started with Christian missionaries in crusades, the same missionaries who you now rail against as causing mayhem in Middle Ages. Please learn history

Lets just forget Christian god drowned 99.99999% of the worlds population.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The amazon.fr homepage is fairly tasteful.

It's the same on UK too

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Saudi Arabia’s Syrian adventures may soon be over

The Saudi may be visiting Russia very soon

 

[gutter_trash]

This thinking drips into hate for religion dripping further into hate for the Muslim way of living which is Islam which itself feeds and grows into prejudice, paranoia and some vent into
Completely bigotry. The Muhammad wasn't a nice guy started with Christian missionaries in crusades, the same missionaries who you now rail against as causing mayhem in Middle Ages. Please learn history

He was not a general or a warlord he was their religious and social leader which meant they looked to him to lead them in defensive wars against Quraysh because they believed God would help them through Muhammad.


The harden view of Islam is that of wahabbism and maudoodism and the Hanbali school of thought while the majority are that of the hanafi school of thought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad

Muhammad's military record

 

[akira28]

Dude no, they are making huge gains against ISIS in Aleppo as we speak.

They did kind of need Putin to put his guiding hand over Bashar's shaky ones controlling the poisonous chainsaw to actually become effective against Daesh.

Bashie has been killing indiscriminately in 'certain' communities and every actual extremist killed just means extra points. It hasn't even been his dirty little secret, just a situation he's had locked up for a while because no one wanted to push hard enough to break him with Russia behind him.

Lets just forget Christian god drowned 99.99999% of the worlds population.

pretty sure the flood story is an allegory of an older retold legend, molded to fit Abrahamic tradititions, etc. At least that what the Catholics teach.

 

[SporeCrawler]

What is the capital of Paris you guys?

Must be versailles

 

[ibyea]

Dude no, they are making huge gains against ISIS in Aleppo as we speak.

Um, the huge gain in Aleppo is against the alliance of rebels in the northern front, not ISIS. The one part they are combating ISIS near Aleppo in is in trying to relieve siege on the Kweres base.

 

[chrizzz09]

The thing is that stuff aren't that simple

no one in the West and GCC especially the elite would want to change the oil game.... corruption and business is connected in a global scale

arms trade is also a problem and people/world leaders will forever want that


ISIS sells other things like Drugs and is also known for human trafficking... The Taliban survives off of opium trade and AlShabbab was charcoal and sugar


sadly instability causes quick and easy business for security companies and arm trade.... while doing investment via education, innovation and renewable energy is a long term investment has risks that the some of the wealthy invested in short term profits don't want to take.

Yeah you're right. I knew that those things weren't so simple. In fact, it would be quite possible this could bring about another economic crisis in our world.

But devaluing the worlds (current) most valuable natural resource has its upsides. ISIS doesn't make enough money with Drugs (relatively speaking) to support their cause.

But yeah, you're right about our western arms trade and corrupt (economic) elites.

Desperation will lead to more radicalised practices from ISIS if they don't have any money income, but desperation also means that they are on the verge of being purged completely.

 

[Maninthemirror]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad

Muhammad's military record

Wikipedia ? The go to defense for all things supposedly factual

Read this 300 page book

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Muhammad.pdf

Or martin lings book from Amazon

For facts which correct your wiki

 

[mAcOdIn]

Here in the UK the best I've seen so far is "Look at all this amazing unity from across the western world, oh and we found this one token muslim on twitter who denounced it" - it's terrible

^ (Post above) See, that's amazing - but I had to come on a forum and piss people off to find out about it, why isn't it trending or going viral, why don't the media cover it? Frustrating!

I also think the issue is deeper.

For one thing, we like to tell everyone that they're one of us, we're one voice, until someone from their identity group does something then all of a sudden they have to stand apart from us and tell us that they don't also believe it. Can't they just denounce it as a human being or at a rally surrounded with their fellow French(or whatever country we're discussing) citizens without having to segregate themselves into their own separate protest just so the rest of the people believe them? That's so disingenuous and really goes to show that no matter how well you integrate, how much you value your country, if you're a Muslim you're never really going to be one of them. And that's sad. if our countries were truly as inclusive as we say we wouldn't expect nor demand such a thing but here we are.

And how are Muslims supposed to take that? They're being reminded every time something happens that it's not really their country, they're different and they have to go out of their way to show the rest of us that they too are grieving and don't support random killing. Can you expect them to feel like they're valued and wanted members of a society that demands that from them?

It doesn't even surprise me that Muslims from the west join groups like Isis when this is their reality.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Would it make sense to just try to take out the whole Muslim - ISIS relationship in general? There's this huge rabbit hole to fall into when you start going after someone's faith when it's an extreme version of what many many others are following. It leads a lot of (ignorant) people into thinking this is a war on a religion instead of a group of fanatics.

I think the better way to spread propaganda to support strikes on ISIS is to simply say that we are fighting ISIS. They could be Christian or Muslim or Buddhist - that doesn't matter. What they are doing (i.e. killing civilians) is what we want to stop.

 

[Vibranium]

Just terrible, my heart goes out to everyone in France. This sucks.

My aunt is actually in Paris right now and is advised to just stay in the hotel.

 

[RoyalFool]

I also think the issue is deeper.

For one thing, we like to tell everyone that they're one of us, we're one voice, until someone from their identity group does something then all of a sudden they have to stand apart from us and tell us that they don't also believe it. Can't they just denounce it as a human being or at a rally surrounded with their fellow French(or whatever country we're discussing) citizens without having to segregate themselves into their own separate protest just so the rest of the people believe them? That's so disingenuous and really goes to show that no matter how well you integrate, how much you value your country, if you're a Muslim you're never really going to be one of them. And that's sad. if our countries were truly as inclusive as we say we wouldn't expect nor demand such a thing but here we are.

And how are Muslims supposed to take that? They're being reminded every time something happens that it's not really their country, they're different and they have to go out of their way to show the rest of us that they too are grieving and don't support random killing. Can you expect them to feel like they're valued and wanted members of a society that demands that from them?

It doesn't even surprise me that Muslims from the west join groups like Isis when this is their reality.

BBC just posted this article which sums up my point.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34822281

 

[gutter_trash]

Wikipedia ? The go to defense for all things supposedly factual

Read this 300 page book

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Muhammad.pdf

Or martin lings book from Amazon

For facts which correct your wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

List of expeditions of Muhammad

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Um, the huge gain in Aleppo is against the alliance of rebels in the northern front, not ISIS. The one part they are combating ISIS near Aleppo in is in trying to relieve siege on the Kweres base.

The kweiris air base siege was already lifted , and they just continue from there against ISIS, its true that they are also advancing against the rebels.

 

[Ovid]

What do you guys think France's response will be?

 

[Vilix]

There's an here irony that no one has brought up. And that is that Friday morning Obama said ISIS was contained. So much for that, huh?

 

[Diablos]

What do you guys think France's response will be?

Airstrikes and perhaps an aggressive pursuit of suspect French nationals and immigrants.

 

[Farooq]

This thinking drips into hate for religion dripping further into hate for the Muslim way of living which is Islam which itself feeds and grows into prejudice, paranoia and some vent into
Completely bigotry. The Muhammad wasn't a nice guy started with Christian missionaries in crusades, the same missionaries who you now rail against as causing mayhem in Middle Ages. Please learn history


The harden view of Islam is that of wahabbism and maudoodism and the Hanbali school of thought while the majority are that of the hanafi school of thought

Mohamed was a warlord. He was a dude that would have "revelations" of convenience. He was also a dude prone to epileptic seizures.

The fact the a billion people worship this man and emulate his behaviour is sickening. Frankly it seems you are deluded about your own religion.

 

[Snake]

The irony that no one has seemed to have brought up is that Friday morning Obama said ISIS was contained. So much for that, huh?

He said they were losing ground. Which is true from basically all fronts in Syria and Iraq.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

There's an here irony that no one has brought up. And that is that Friday morning Obama said ISIS was contained. So much for that, huh?

That was in relation to a question about their ground movement in Iraq and possibly Syria where they were no longer advancing but actually had just lost Sinjar to the Kurds.

 

[Silent Chief]

Say hello to fortress Europe and faster resurgence of right wing.

That's the whole point of the attack, isn't it?
You have to be careful when you evaluate the long term goals of people who kill themselves. They only care about their own brand of Islam are would like to depopulate the Middle East of everybody else, especially other Muslims. They like that Syria is emptying out, but they don't want those who leave to integrate into the western world.

 

[nillah]

What do you guys think France's response will be?

Russia has already agreed to assist in defeating any, and all evil threats

 

[RedSparrows]

Mohamed was a warlord. He was a dude that would have "revelations" of convenience. He was also a dude prone to epileptic seizures.

The fact the a billion people worship this man and emulate his behaviour is sickening. Frankly it seems you are deluded about your own religion.

A billion+ people don't emulate his warlording ways, though. Yes, rather simplistic and reductive, but the point still has power irrespective. It's all too easy forgotten when the world stamps its feet and damns all Muslims as the same.

 

[Arials]

There's a good chance they are standing in solidarity, but our news stations fail to report it.

The Telegraph had an intersting article on solidarity written by the leader of the French-Muslim "Enough with silence" campaign: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...re-defining-Islam.-We-Muslims-must-react.html

Spoiler:

Spoiler

zero Muslim leaders supported the campaign and the majority of French Muslims chose to attack or ridicule the campaign rather than support it.

The western media isn't lying to you. The streets aren't full of Muslims marching in solidarity while journalists cover their eyes.

 

[Jonm1010]

The irony that no one has seemed to have brought up is that Friday morning Obama said ISIS was contained. So much for that, huh?

I mean I don't know the context of that comment but I doubt it was literal in the sense that every Isis member is contained and accounted for.

Likely he means containment in a geographical and military sense.

 

[King Tubby]

The inevitable result seems to be a western force pacifying/occupying the region for an extended time.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

A billion+ people don't emulate his warlording ways, though. Yes, rather simplistic and reductive, but the point still has power irrespective. It's all too easy forgotten when the world stamps its feet and damns all Muslims as the same.

Which is exactly what ISIS wants to happen. More persecution means more potential recruits to spread their cause.

 

[Chakan]

https://twitter.com/BFMTV/status/665611631762808832

Attentats de Paris: "Nous sommes en guerre", déclare Valls

French Prime Minister said "we are at war".

 

[kruis]

Wikipedia ? The go to defense for all things supposedly factual

Read this 300 page book

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Muhammad.pdf

Or martin lings book from Amazon

For facts which correct your wiki

You're religious, you believe in an omnipotent all-knowing invisible being in the sky and you're defense against facts is a hagiography written by another muslim. Ehm.

 

[Diablos]

I believe Obama was talking about their presence in the Middle East. Still, horrible timing and it makes him look bad.

 

[ElTorro]

I wonder what the different people in Syria and Iraq would want the West to do if we could ask them. Start a new all-out war and obliterate ISIS' infrastructure and organization at the cost of unavoidable casualties, but with the prospect of renegotiating borders and governments? Or stay out of it?

Should we start a new war, I hope that it will involve other Arab countries as allies. Otherwise, it would be way to easy for propagandists to brand it as a new crusade.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

There's an here irony that no one has brought up. And that is that Friday morning Obama said ISIS was contained. So much for that, huh?

He's clearly talking about the active fighting and territorial gains in Syria/Iraq.

So no, not really all that ironic.

 

[Polari]

People with their quote memes and changing their profile pic on facebook can just fuck off

 

[segasonic]

The inevitable result seems to be a western force pacifying/occupying the region for an extended time.

not gonna happen

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

The full quote just in case anyone requires context.

“I don’t think they’re gaining strength,” Obama responded. “What is true is that from the start, our goal has been first to contain and we have contained them. They have not gained ground in Iraq, and in Syria they’ll come in, they’ll leave, but you don’t see this systemic march by ISIL across the terrain.”

“What we have not yet been able to do is to completely decapitate their command and control structures,” he admitted. “We’ve made some progress in trying to reduce the flow of foreign fighters and part our goal has to be to recruit more effective Sunni partners in Iraq to really go on offense rather than simply engage in defense.”

 

[entremet]

There's an here irony that no one has brought up. And that is that Friday morning Obama said ISIS was contained. So much for that, huh?

The Right has been slamming him for that today.

I think the criticism is a bit unfair due to the context of the question.

 

[nillah]

You can't contain ISIS when NAZI INFLUENCE has cast its beliefs and hatred over 500,000 in a brotherhood dating back to the 1920's.

Nazi influence is still prevalent in the middle east. If a country like Israel can thrive in that region why can't others?

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I wonder what the different people in Syria and Iraq would want the West to do if we could ask them. Start a new all-out war and obliterate ISIS' infrastructure and organization at the cost of unavoidable casualties, but with the prospect of renegotiating borders and governments? Or stay out of it?

Should we start a new war, I hope that it will involve other Arab countries as allies. Otherwise, it would be way to easy for propagandists to brand it as a new crusade.

the US has the biggest air force in the area right now, no one even comes close, if they could get the kurds and themselves cooperating with the syrian army and the russians this whole thing could be over in a year.

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

The inevitable result seems to be a western force pacifying/occupying the region for an extended time.

That will only create more Sunnis extremist or rather turn more Sunnis into extremist. The ME was "fine" before the US invaded Iraq, now with several dictators gone in the area the west has to be willing to destroy ISIS leave and be eventually ready to accept that some Islamic nations to vote for a radical Sunni leader that would rant about Zionist pigs and evil western nations than to talk about development, education or infrastructure.

 

[Jonm1010]

The Telegraph had an intersting article on solidarity written by the leader of the French-Muslim "Enough with silence" campaign: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...re-defining-Islam.-We-Muslims-must-react.html

Spoiler:

Spoiler

zero Muslim leaders supported the campaign and the majority of French Muslims chose to attack or ridicule the campaign rather than support it.

The western media isn't lying to you. The streets aren't full of Muslims marching in solidarity while journalists cover their eyes.

Well considering what numerous other posters have provided in terms of support and condemnation with the Hebdo attacks this guy seems to be operating on a false premise, similar to what you are operating on which is that the Muslim community stays silent when these events occur.

I sometimes question if my responses are even worth the effort when it is clear certain posters haven't even bothered to read the last couple pages of the thread they are jumping into.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Which is exactly what ISIS wants to happen. More persecution means more potential recruits to spread their cause.

They're going to make martyrs out of monsters.

 

[akira28]

There's an here irony that no one has brought up. And that is that Friday morning Obama said ISIS was contained. So much for that, huh?

you can't contain a liquid threat like embedded cells by fighting them with militaries so don't be facetious or even worse, insincere by suggesting that Obama was referring to the 'greater Jihad', which, unfortunately to these terrible followers of God, is not the evil within their own souls. They're not even fighting oppression, they're hurting innocents, with the justification that other innocents have been hurt. That's the irony. That people who talk wonderful circles will send more people like these to spread more pain.

You're religious, you believe in an omnipotent all-knowing invisible being in the sky and you're defense against facts is a hagiography written by another muslim. Ehm.

this kind of dismissive argument not only doesn't help, it allows for intellectual laziness that gets carried elsewhere and used as a false platform for other things. At least go into the pages, read their point of view so you can refute it with direct contradictions, not refutations based on 'ignorance by refusal' as a defense.

I think centering on the Prophet is a mistake when it's pretty clear things went off the rails after he died. I say this as someone who's ancestors ran clear across the African continent to escape Islam. With it ultimately catching up to us hundreds of years later. So all these arguments about those early battles, who started the fire, when human nature spread it. Instead of arguing history people need to be doing something a little less pointless and a little more helpful.

 

[gutter_trash]

I wonder what the different people in Syria and Iraq would want the West to do if we could ask them. Start a new all-out war and obliterate ISIS' infrastructure and organization at the cost of unavoidable casualties, but with the prospect of renegotiating borders and governments? Or stay out of it?

Should we start a new war, I hope that it will involve other Arab countries as allies. Otherwise, it would be way to easy for propagandists to brand it as a new crusade.

people in Syria are not unified.
people in Iraq are not unified.

having Western powers draw up imaginary borders that includes people of different ethnicity, different clans, different sects into on country did not work.

Since Kurds are doing most of the heavy lifting, I believe they deserve their own country (I don't care what Turkey thinks)

 

[ph1l0z0ph3r]

Well this just graced my wall



Wtf is wrong with people, at first an asshole just said it, now they're making pictures. I'm pretty much done with the internet today.

Wow just saw the same picture but instead it said Paris is a gun free zone. See how good that worked out for them. People that like are pure fucking imbeciles.

 

[TumblingHippo]

Remember how upset conservatives/republicans got when Obama talked about the Crusades being an example of harmful Christianity...

Yet Muslims are expected to apologize each and every time a terrorist group does something?

"Entire Group of People, make sure to remind the world that violence is bad or else we'll judge you just for your race, heritage, and religion."

It's disgusting.

 

[azyless]

I also think the issue is deeper.

For one thing, we like to tell everyone that they're one of us, we're one voice, until someone from their identity group does something then all of a sudden they have to stand apart from us and tell us that they don't also believe it. Can't they just denounce it as a human being or at a rally surrounded with their fellow French(or whatever country we're discussing) citizens without having to segregate themselves into their own separate protest just so the rest of the people believe them? That's so disingenuous and really goes to show that no matter how well you integrate, how much you value your country, if you're a Muslim you're never really going to be one of them. And that's sad. if our countries were truly as inclusive as we say we wouldn't expect nor demand such a thing but here we are.

And how are Muslims supposed to take that? They're being reminded every time something happens that it's not really their country, they're different and they have to go out of their way to show the rest of us that they too are grieving and don't support random killing. Can you expect them to feel like they're valued and wanted members of a society that demands that from them?

It doesn't even surprise me that Muslims from the west join groups like Isis when this is their reality.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. A lot of muslims now in France don't even think of themselves as french, specially the newer generations. My mom teaches in a heavily muslim school and I regularly hear about 10 year old kids, born in the same damn hospital room as I was and who have never gone out of the country, claiming they're "not french" and things like that. It goes with the growing radicalisation of muslims here, specially in the "banlieues".
I'm not trying to generalize, I know it's not the case for a lot (maybe most) of people, but I really don't think it's as simple as just saying "white people don't consider them french". There is crap from both sides imo.

 

[TheRealTalker]

Yeah you're right. I knew that those things weren't so simple. In fact, it would be quite possible this could bring about another economic crisis in our world.
But devaluing the worlds (current) most valuable natural resource has its upsides. ISIS doesn't make enough money with Drugs (relatively speaking) to support their cause.
But yeah, you're right about our western arms trade and corrupt (economic) elites.
Desperation will lead to more radicalised practices from ISIS if they don't have any money income, but desperation also means that they are on the verge of being purged completely.

What needs to be done first is to kick-start diplomatic talks between all major countries in the middle east (particularly Iran and Saudi Arabia)

Key things need to addressed and a coalition and understanding needs to be made between all countries.

Western involvement needs to be scraped and also one needs to sell the idea of economic benefits from such future peace.

Next would be to have tribes in those particularity dire situation to come to a common understanding.... A non western observing group needs to be made to monitor suitable
outcome and make sure corruption and tribal/sect politics are not forced.

This problem needs to be solved by people in the region.... having Western Nation just bombing something and funding something else just breeds chaos.... the common folk later fell betrayed by the invaders and wedged in between conflict of certain factions

When a common proposition is made for all parties.... maybe even a union in that region they can move forward in strategically taking care of the situation and later developing that area while making those civilians disarm and have a mentality of disliking war in order to have a better tomorrow.

What is needed is first diplomacy then sanctions on those terror groups, then monitoring and rebuilding and then economic trade collaboration for the whole region to become united thus making it harder for certain outlier groups to take hold and grow.

We need to think of this as a problem that those governments need to solve.... we need them to somehow toss away their differences... the international community needs to force big powers that hate each other to go into talks and cool relations.

 

[nillah]

There's a difference between a full-scale war, and sending in a platoon of soldiers