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[ElTorro]

Who is this hypothetical "we" that you talked about?

We in the West who believe in liberal values and the freedom to discuss and criticize ideas publicly. An achievement that liberal Muslim reformers sadly do not enjoy in respect to discussing and criticizing Islam in many majority-Muslim countries. If even we in the West self-censor ourselves by saying that any discussion of the connection between Islam, Islamism, and terrorism only supports bigotry against innocent Muslims, or only supports the Islamists narrative of the war against the West, then we are stabbing Muslim reformers in the back. Which is what Islamists want, because they do not want to reform their conservative version of Islam. They want to impose it on others.

"We believe a racist when he says..." "We don't believe an Islamist..." Who are they?

All sorts of public commentators, especially in big media outlets, and especially in the self-identified liberal/progressive side of the discussion. Which I as a self-identified liberal and progressive find counter-productive to the liberal cause of spreading liberal values through conversation.

Because plenty of people actually believed that, like I am sure the person that burned that mosque in Canada do, like I am sure many people in the US and Europe and elsewhere do, like many people in GAF do (not that I am not equating people who believed that as mosque-burning maniacs).

I am confused. Believe what? That Islamists believe that they are acting in the name of Islam? Your statement in your other post said that Islam only "may" have an impact, and thus certainly implied that if it has an impact, it is a secondary cause. I claim its a primary cause. Which does not exclude other causes.

I am just finding it a bit irksome that you are treating Islam as some sort of a "darling" of these kinds of discussions when we have so many examples of how people actually thinking otherwise and how it can--and have--caused innocent Muslims around the world suffering as a result.

I don't understand what you want to convey with this paragraph.

 

[woen]

Ayy, Victim blaming is the new in eh?
Edit: Talking about the last part of your post.

As far as I know he's not victim, he thinks he potentially could be a victim if he goes at a certain place at a certain time. I think beginning to think like that is one Daech symbolic victory over our lives.

Then why are all the non-muslims in the same social/political/economical situation not blowing themselves up, joining extremists groups and attacking random civilians?

Journalists who've talked for three years to jihadists report that most of them were not muslim first (they converted to Islam later when adhering to jihadism) or were non-religious muslims (born and raised in families with little religion despite having a muslim culture). In other words, despite what far-right activists are saying, this is another proof that Islam is not the core problem here.

Also, the way you problematize the issue won't help you finding answers to it. You definitely lack of perspective.

This attack was retaliation to the French airstrikes - straight from the horses mouth.

Don't forget to extract yourself from Dacha's propaganda. Since september 2014 they massively targeted France and Europe in general, saying the problem was the airstrikes. While what they say may be true re-contextualised, we can't say they wouldn't have stroke if France wasn't doing airstrikes.

French polemist Michel Onfray* is actually being translated in arabic among jihadists internet sphere because he actually re-tells exactly Dacha's propaganda on airstrikes and how things would have been different if there haven't been airstrikes.

*who is, for those who don't know him, someone accused of being islamophobic, who thinks that Islam in itself has a problem in France and that refugees are definitely not welcome.

 

[Stereogatari]

It's not Islam that plays a part. It's Wahabbi/Salafist Islam. Nobody following traditional ethnicity Islam X or traditional ethnicity Islam Y will be motivated to pick up a gun and start killing innocent people before blowing themselves up. They're about as close to doing that as a Christian or Atheist.

Those who have had their brains, behaviour and everything thoroughly washed and shaped by Wahabbi and Salafi idealogy are the ones who find it easy to kill. Every single Mosque in the West should be audited and every single one preaching Wahabbi filth shut down. Germany does it for Neo-Nazi organisations.

 

[ElTorro]

It's not Islam that plays a part. It's Wahabbi/Salafist Islam.

This version of Islam is devoted to interpreting the most authentic sources of Islamic doctrine in the most direct and literal way. While I don't want to claim that this is how every Muslim should see Islam, it is still a problem for Islam as a whole when attempts to understand it as directly as possible can lead to something as Wahhabism. And from my reading of the Quran and the tiny bit of knowledge I have about the Sunna, it is not really that hard to infer Wahhabism, or at least substantial parts of Wahhabism, from these sources.

Which is a problem that Muslims have to discuss internally. And we do not support that process by denying that it is a problem that Islam has and has to face. We need convincing Islamic counter-narratives to combat radicalized young Muslims in a war of ideas. And to be honest, the theological attempts I have seen so far—while laudable—are not really convincing to me.

 

[TheStruggler]

Random shootings aren't terrorism. Terrorism is using force, spreading fear, in order to achieve your goal. Some kid shooting up some place because #YOLO isn't terrorism by any definition of the word.

the definition of terrorism has always bothered me because a shooter of any type is using force and spreading fear to achieve their goal (which the definition of goal could also be anything) which would be to kill as many people as possible..

 

[Auctopus]

Just reading that Washington Post article about how the son and Mother escaped the Bataclan is crazy. Unbelievably lucky.

 

[patapuf]

It's not Islam that plays a part. It's Wahabbi/Salafist Islam. Nobody following traditional ethnicity Islam X or traditional ethnicity Islam Y will be motivated to pick up a gun and start killing innocent people before blowing themselves up. They're about as close to doing that as a Christian or Atheist.

Those who have had their brains, behaviour and everything thoroughly washed and shaped by Wahabbi and Salafi idealogy are the ones who find it easy to kill. Every single Mosque in the West should be audited and every single one preaching Wahabbi filth shut down. Germany does it for Neo-Nazi organisations.

I think it would help to be more specific when critising islamic sects rather than all of them at once. It's still a generalisation, but i think it would make it easier to include muslims in the discussion rather than demonising them all.

That said, looking at what is going on in the middle east/northern africa, pretending that there isn't a big problem with islamic extremism/Wahabism is burrying the head in the sand. It's not the only reason stuff is happening (there are always multiple reasons) but it's the ideology these people have subcribed to.

 

[MisterFalcon]

It's not Islam that plays a part. It's Wahabbi/Salafist Islam. Nobody following traditional ethnicity Islam X or traditional ethnicity Islam Y will be motivated to pick up a gun and start killing innocent people before blowing themselves up. They're about as close to doing that as a Christian or Atheist.

Is this in an alternate reality where Islamic terror is as rare as Christian/Atheist or is there a Christian/Atheist State there that is as actively murdering all over the world ?

Because the two are not at all comparable.

 

[Stereogatari]

This version of Islam is devoted to interpreting the most authentic sources of Islamic doctrine in the most direct and literal way. While I don't want to claim that this is how every Muslim should see Islam, it is still a problem for Islam as a whole when attempts to understand it as directly as possible can lead to something as Wahhabism. And from my reading of the Quran and the tiny bit of knowledge I have about the Sunna, it is not really that hard to infer Wahhabism, or at least substantial parts of Wahhabism, from these sources.

Which is a problem that Muslims have to discuss internally. And we do not support that process by denying that it is a problem that Islam has and has to face. We need convincing Islamic counter-narratives to combat radicalized young Muslims in a war of ideas. And to be honest, the theological attempts I have seen so far—while laudable—are not really convincing to me.

Islamic doctrine is definitely full of shit. But when we say "Islam has a problem it needs to solve" who do we include within this remit? Are Secular people who are Muslim in name only included? Are religious people like Erdoğan and the Turkish government and their most avid supporters included, despite their Islam not having any of the aforementioned Wahabbi and Salafi tendencies. South Asia has religious movements that are unique to its own sphere of the World etc.

I think "the talk" within Islam should be focused on the Arab World. The core of Islamist terrorism originates from this sphere, as do the majority of the terrorists themselves (in UK terror is more likely to come from Pakistani origin people looking at past incidents, but the idealogy that influences them is the same Wahabbi/Salafi stuff).

Islamist attacks in France are nearly all (if not all) perpetrated by North African descended Muslims. So something is clearly going wrong somewhere deep within this community in particular. Some of their ancestors fought a Secular war to free their homeland of French rule and now they're in the streets of Paris shooting up people in the name of Islam. This clearly isn't their cultural background causing this. There's a virus in the middle. Certain rogue mosques etc. that are preaching Islamist Supremacy and priming these guys up for killing. I doubt the village mosque back in Algeria or Morocco would approve.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Is this in an alternate reality where Islamic terror is as rare as Christian/Atheist or is there a Christian/Atheist State there that is as actively murdering all over the world ?

Because the two are not at all comparable.

Well, there was.

 

[Nullabe]

BFM reports five people arrested and rocket launcher seized in #Lyon during police raids after #ParisAttacks http://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/666158706455937024/photo/1

this shit is scary, i live in Lyon... What a bad week-end !

 

[Stereogatari]

Is this in an alternate reality where Islamic terror is as rare as Christian/Atheist or is there a Christian/Atheist State there that is as actively murdering all over the world ?

Because the two are not at all comparable.

Let me use myself as an example to explain what I meant.

I am from a Turkish background. I'm Atheist but let's pretend I'm Muslim. My Islam comes from my grandparents (and to a lesser extent my parents who are not that religious, indeed my grandparents didn't become religious until they became elderly) who got it from their ancestors for many generations in the Turkish countryside. Another source is from the mosques of my ethnicity (which are controlled by the Turkish State, even those abroad and whose sermons are authorised by the State). If I follow Islam like this there is as much chance of me becoming a terrorist as a Christian or Atheist.

But if I break this ancestral chain and go to a different mosque, a mosque where Wahabbis and Salafis have taken root, then who knows where I'll end up.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Man hearing that Jews and Muslims held a joint prayer in France for Peace really fills my heart with warmth and hope for Humanity.

 

[ElTorro]

Islamic doctrine is definitely full of shit. But when we say "Islam has a problem it needs to solve" who do we include within this remit? Are Secular people who are Muslim in name only included? Are religious people like Erdoğan and the Turkish government and their most avid supporters included, despite their Islam not having any of the aforementioned Wahabbi and Salafi tendencies. South Asia has religious movements that are unique to its own sphere of the World etc.

In the broadest sense, everybody who is affected by the consequences of these versions of Islam. Which includes almost everybody on the planet. But in a practical sense, I think that it should be focused on the community of all Muslims, because conservative Muslims will probably not give a damn about what Westerners have to say about Islam. Still, given that talking about Islam in a reformist way can easily get you into big trouble in many Muslim-majority countries, the West should support reformers by discussing and spreading their ideas.

By the way, it is also important to note that Muslims who are not Wahhabis/Salafists are not automatically moderate Muslims. Many commonly accepted ideas in conservative Islam, like a disdain for the "blasphemer" and the apostate, are also part of the wider problem. See Charlie Hebdo.

Man hearing that Jews and Muslims held a joint prayer in France for Peace really fills my heart with warmth and hope for Humanity.

Must humans are luckily much better than their religions, who tell them that the non-believers are full of shit and doomed. Which is what these Jews and Muslims admirably ignore.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Man hearing that Jews and Muslims held a joint prayer in France for Peace really fills my heart with warmth and hope for Humanity.

After Charlie Hebdo in January there was also this:

 

[chadskin]

AP: BREAKING: French official identifies suspected mastermind of Paris attacks as Belgian Abdelhamid Abaaoud.

AP: BREAKING: French official says suspected attacks mastermind linked to thwarted train and church attacks.

https://twitter.com/ap/

 

[The Sum of Zero]

BREAKING: French official identifies suspected mastermind of Paris attacks as Belgian Abdelhamid Abaaoud.
3:48am - 16 Nov 15

BREAKING: French official says suspected attacks mastermind linked to thwarted train and church attacks.
3:52am - 16 Nov 15

Source: http://twitter.com/AP

EDIT: Beaten.

 

[Stereogatari]

By the way, it is also important to note that Muslims who are not Wahhabis/Salafists are not automatically moderate Muslims. Many commonly accepted ideas in conservative Islam, like a disdain for the "blasphemer" and the apostate, are also part of the wider problem. See Charlie Hebdo.



Must humans are luckily much better than their religions, who tell them that the non-believers are full of shit and doomed. Which is what these Jews and Muslims admirably ignore.

Oh sure. The Conservatism as a whole is a different beast. But in terms of the Islamist terror, that is be all and end all the Wahabbis.

So true. Most Muslims I know are not even Muslims. I tell them to their face haha. My girlfriend is a believer and often gets into arguments with me about my Atheism. She's never read the Quran of course, which I have! Also she has tattoos, drinks, doesn't cover her hair and is going out with me before marriage. But then again that's Turkish people for you. Thank Allah most Muslims I know are like this ^_^. Neither of us eat pork though, so there's that haha.

 

[ElTorro]

https://twitter.com/ap/

I googled this name and came across interesting stories from 2013. Apparently, he was already jailed in 2013 as part of a raid against an organization that wanted to recruit people for Syria, overthrow the Belgium government, and establish an Islamic state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i39dZCXlZC4

 

[Jack The Nipper]

A rocket launcher? Those aren't very smart weapons honestly.. Unless they planned to shoot a bus or something?

So these attacks were suppose to happen together? Weekly? Monthly? Or we just have no idea I assume.

I haven't heard much of what french officials have said? Well, I hope you guys can find some kind of normal life who live around the areas impacted it's really bad that people can't care for one another in such a simple way.

 

[Funky Papa]

That's easy to explain, one group is protected by the left the other is not and is seen as their direct opposition.

No one ever mentions the imams as the main culprit but they're the ones who can and have the power and will to directly influence the minds of these men.

Not really.

The left may be more vocal, but at the end of the day they make very little effort to address the situation in any other way than obfuscating the debate. At the same time, the right doesn't even want to address it, either out of fear to be called racists or because, well, they don't give a fuck. At best, they may blow a few dog whistles for electoral purposes and that's it.

As a result, the only parties willing to talk about the radicalization of Islam are the far right wackjobs, who are way too fringe to care about political correctness and end up monopolizing the public debate.

 

[ICKE]

https://twitter.com/ap/

They need to oust all of them and this is why European integration is important.

The Finnish security officials stated that there are apparently 300 people who are being monitored at the moment within just this country. This is not just a French problem but a situation all Member States have to deal with - together.

 

[FloatingDivider]

I googled this name and came across interesting stories from 2013. Apparently, he was already jailed in 2013 as part of a raid against an organization that wanted to recruit people for Syria, overthrow the Belgium government, and establish an Islamic state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i39dZCXlZC4

Yes! I'm baffled because I knew about this fucker because he had made threats previously and I remember it being news that we had imprisoned him. Did we let him go? Wtf Belgium? He was supposed to be jailed for 20 years and somehow he's in Greece orchestrating plans to fuck shit up? How does that work?

 

[MisterFalcon]

Well, there was.

Were there Soviet attacks on Paris by suicide commandos ?

 

[Lender]

Yes! I'm baffled because I knew about this fucker because he had made threats previously and I remember it being news that we had imprisoned him. Did we let him go? Wtf Belgium? He was supposed to be jailed for 20 years and somehow he's in Greece orchestrating plans to fuck shit up? How does that work?

 

[woen]

That's easy to explain, one group is protected by the left the other is not and is seen as their direct opposition.

No one ever mentions the imams as the main culprit but they're the ones who can and have the power and will to directly influence the minds of these men.

That's the most stupid explanation I've ever read.

Also "No one ever mentions" counts for almost every public speech of the Security minister in France since 2013, or the last public media appearance of the French PM yesterday ? Please. Try and read people who really worked on the subjects and rely less on your basic instincts or your far-right agenda.

 

[MrBigBoy]

Livestream from the arrest in Belgium: http://nieuws.vtm.be/video?page=1&aid=11602

The streets are full of police

 

[Ozium]

Must humans are luckily much better than their religions, who tell them that the non-believers are full of shit and doomed. Which is what these Jews and Muslims admirably ignore.

Judaism does nothing of the sort.

 

[Joni]

Yes! I'm baffled because I knew about this fucker because he had made threats previously and I remember it being news that we had imprisoned him. Did we let him go? Wtf Belgium? He was supposed to be jailed for 20 years and somehow he's in Greece orchestrating plans to fuck shit up? How does that work?

http://i.imgur.com/8w4kOFL.jpg

He was convicted in absence... He was already in Syria at that point. We weren't as stupid to let him go after his conviction. For once. His brother is also the youngest Belgian to fight in Syria, at age 13.

 

[Jindrax]

Holy shit, is it one of the guys from Paris?

 

[MrBigBoy]

Holy shit, is it one of the guys from Paris?

Yes, they just said there are more people hiding in the building.

 

[Joni]

Oh look, it is Molenbeek again. I wonder if I would hear explosions at this distance.

 

[Jindrax]

Oh look, it is Molenbeek again. I wonder if I would hear explosions at this distance.

Yeah I'm in Ganshoren, just two communes away. Didn't hear anything all morning

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Holy shit, is it one of the guys from Paris?

Wait what is going on?

 

[MrBigBoy]

Wait what is going on?

They just arrested a guy, and more people are hiding in a building. Probably people that have ssome relation with the attacks.

On the livestream they are now saying a bomb-car has been found in the Wetstraat in Brussels.

http://nieuws.vtm.be/video?page=1&aid=11602

 

[Joni]

Bomb alert in 'Wetstraat' Brussels due to suspect car found. That is the hart of Brussels, including home of the prime minister. If that explodes, I'll certainly hear it. Less than 2 kilometers.

Wait what is going on?

They have one of the suspects cornered in his house in Molenbeek. He is not alone and it is to be assumed he has enough weapons.

 

[marc^o^]

Holy shit, is it one of the guys from Paris?

Can't watch the stream. Did they say he's in the building?

 

[FloatingDivider]

Wait what is going on?

They located some possible affiliates of the daeshbags that attacked Paris in Molenbeek in Belgium. They're staging a raid to hopefully arrest them.

 

[chadskin]

Suspect taken away by police at #Molenbeek raid, in Brussels.

https://twitter.com/eurosandor/status/666194939705991169

 

[Lender]

Bomb alert in 'Wetstraat' Brussels due to suspect car found. That is the hart of Brussels, including home of the prime minister. If that explodes, I'll certainly hear it. Less than 2 kilometers.

Probably just another false alarm like it almost always is.

 

[MrBigBoy]

I can hear shooting on the livestream.

 

[Nyx]

According to VTM it's Salah Abdeslam they caught.

 

[Joni]

Probably just another false alarm like it almost always is.

Yes, but it is also not the kind of street where you can leave a car parked depending on the point where it is found.

 

[ElTorro]

Judaism does nothing of the sort.

In Jewish eschatology, you are doomed regarding the world to come if you are not "righteous" and do not follow the seven laws of Noah.

 

[chadskin]

According to VTM it's Salah Abdeslam they caught.

RTL Belgium reports the same: http://www.rtl.be/info/regions/brux...-salah-abdeslam-aurait-ete-arrete-771224.aspx

 

[ManUnkindH]

I can hear shooting on the livestream.

I can;t understand what the reporter is saying. Can someone update?

 

[Ozium]

I can hear shooting on the livestream.

what livestream?

 

[MrBigBoy]

what livestream?

http://nieuws.vtm.be/video?page=1&aid=11602

 

[Lender]

I can hear shooting on the livestream.

The VTM livestream? I heard no such thing.

 

[Joni]

France: 168 home searches, 23 arrests, 100+ people under house arrests, heavy weaponry found.

I can;t understand what the reporter is saying. Can someone update?

She is saying it looks very calm, like if the action is over. The troops on the roof are still there, so there is some strange juxtaposition.