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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.

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The social media guilt going around right now is quite sickening. Our empathy extends globally but we are more likely to feel more the closer to ourselves a tragedy is. From my personal circle of friends I can tell who is just leveraging a sympathy competition in the hopes of making people feel guilty when they already are fuelled with emotion.
 
Diablos said:
Really just goes to show you how scared everyone is. :(
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Yeah, even here in Canada, I heard firecrackers late at night while doing some schoolwork and my mind automatically went to the worst possible scenario, like I spent a good 20 minutes looking outside my window...
 
OG_Original Gamer said:
ISIS is like a roach infestation that you keep trying to kill, but fail because you refuse to clean house.
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By clean house, do you mean blow up the house along with the family, kids, and dog inside? I mean, we already do that. Been doing that for decades.

If you're talking something along the lines of ethnic cleansing, then no thanks. The roaches will survive and procreate and spread like a virus.
 
Valar Morghulis said:
I don't think that's a fair thing to say. I lived there for a couple years and in general the people were great, this could happen anywhere, in fact it's happened in a lot of places across Canada in the past.
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As a visible minority who grew up there...I'm not surprised at all.

Though it has gotten a lot better since I was a kid.
 
It's pretty annoying that whenever someone is questioning Islamic doctrine, immediately there's the straw man "You want to ban Islam?" "You want to kill Muslims?" "Racism!"

Just calm the fuck down. Islam is a set of beliefs. Just like Mormonism, socialism and African animism. Ideas can be criticized, and done right, minds can be changed.

No person is beyond dignity, and no idea is beyond scrutiny. By all means, we should never be hostile against PEOPLE, or groups thereof. But unless we can talk about IDEAS, we'll get nowhere. Fast.
 
raphier said:
Mass panic hit France, caused by false alarm during tributes to victims.. . Apparently the restaurants are evacuating quite regularly because of firecrackers
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h5M05DM.jpg
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some people...
 
Well apparently anonymous has declared war on ISIS now, and that brings me to a point about inaction. If all western countries of the world including anon spent resources on targeting these websites (taking and keeping them offline) along with LEO handling their respective areas that could be yet another option.

This has to be dealt with by more than just bombs and bullets. The internet campaign these guys have is pretty impressive and it fosters recruitment and sympathy.
 
EmSeta said:
It's pretty annoying that whenever someone is questioning Islamic doctrine, immediately there's the straw man "You want to ban Islam?" "You want to kill Muslims?" "Racism!"

Just calm the fuck down. Islam is a set of beliefs. Just like Mormonism, socialism and African animism. Ideas can be criticized, and done right, minds can be changed.

No person is beyond dignity, and no idea is beyond scrutiny. By all means, we should never be hostile against PEOPLE, or groups thereof. But unless we can talk about IDEAS, we'll get nowhere. Fast.
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You don't understand the criticism that such talk gets. It's about simplifying complex issues with the blaming of the mainstream religion. This does not mean that Islam needs no revisionism or whatever but that it is no political solution.

It is about confusing pseudo sociological theories with real phenomenons. Instability, poverty, oppression and war itself promotes radicalization. These things are far more researched and practical than forcing fastened revisionism of the whole religion in general. A new revision of mainstream Islam will happen no matter what, is already happening and lack there of is not the main cause of the current situation.

If everytime we want to talk about economic integration for example people bring up Islam then you should not be surprised that you get scoffed at because you are then acting like a 12 year old.
 
Condom said:
You don't understand the criticism that such talk gets. It's about simplifying complex issues with the blaming of the mainstream religion. This does not mean that Islam needs no revisionism or whatever but that it is no political solution.

It is about confusing pseudo sociological theories with real phenomenons. Instability, poverty, oppression and war itself promotes radicalization. These things are far more researched and practical than forcing fastened revisionism of the whole religion in general. A new revision of mainstream Islam will happen no matter what, is already happening and lack there of is not the main cause of the current situation.

If everytime we want to talk about economic integration for example people bring up Islam then you should not be surprised that you get scoffed at because you are then acting like a 12 year old.
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There's (unfortunately) no lack of underprivileged social groupings in Europe. If poverty was the main driving force of violence, the socially shunned and poor Roma folk would be coordinating attacks every week.

Every time there's been an economical downturn in Europe, we've seen the rise of neo nazis and fascism. But when I marched I the streets in the 90's protesting neo nazism, no one was making excuses for the ideology based on the economical situation and, telling me
I shouldn't criticize the neo nazis, because that could upset the poor "peaceful nationalists".

Violent terrorism is vastly overrepresented among adherents to Islam. Pedophiles are vastly overrepresented among Catholic priests. Let's try to find out WHY, instead of partaking in denialism.

I know it's not the PEOPLE themselves, because in essence, we're all the fucking same. All this grouping of people as "Muslims" or "Non-muslims" etc isn't helpful IMO, and it's just furthering the divide between us. There's people, and then there's ideas. They're not one and the same.
 
Cloud Strife said:
So the only mosque in my hometown was set on fire.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mosque-peterborough-fire-1.3320013

Fucking hell.

Edit: Ah, just saw that it was posted.
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Definitely a hate crime in response to the attack in France, seeing it is in Canada. Fuckin' racist bigots need to be found and arrested. Shame these idiots can't even think for a second about what they are doing.



Can we post quotes from articles in here? If I can't, I'll remove it.

NSFW I guess:
Washington Post: Sheridan wrote that Wilson said the attackers had deliberately singled out handicapped concert-goers for execution.

“They corralled the wheelchair spectators on the first floor balcony and shot them each individually,” Sheridan wrote

This stood out to me because I remember this exact thing happening in a fucking Tom Clancy book. Real life is imitating fiction once again, sigh.

I think this is also common tactics by terrorists? I think this also happened in the Mall attack with the gunmen, can't remember the name of the incident. Can't even give them the dignity of dying with the others.
Edit:Link
 
As horrible as it gets... It goes without saying that every terror attack is horrible.

It got me seriously re-thinking going to Euro 2016 next year in France. I live pretty close, so it would be fun trip for me and friends but I have no desire to relive 90's.
 
spwolf said:
As horrible as it gets... It goes without saying that every terror attack is horrible.

It got me seriously re-thinking going to Euro 2016 next year in France. I live pretty close, so it would be fun trip for me and friends but I have no desire to relive 90's.
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There won't ever be a 0% risk, so if you have to just stop living because you have a really small chance of being hit by a terrorist attack...well just stay at home and barricade yourself, and Daech will thank you.
 
SkyNewsBreak: Update - French prime minister confirms raids have been carried out by police searching for suspected Islamists across France #ParisAttacks
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SkyNewsBreak: French prime minister says the government knew attacks were being prepared and more are still being prepared in #France and across Europe
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https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/

Valls also reiterated what Hollande said previously, that the attack was planned in Syria with complicity in France, in addition to calling it an act of war as well. I strongly assume they're both preparing to invoke NATO's article 5 as soon as the investigation is concluded.
 
woen said:
There won't ever be a 0% risk, so if you have to just stop living because you have a really small chance of being hit by a terrorist attack...well just stay at home and barricade yourself, and Daech will thank you.
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Ayy, Victim blaming is the new in eh?
Edit: Talking about the last part of your post.
 
EmSeta said:
There's (unfortunately) no lack of underprivileged social groupings in Europe. If poverty was the main driving force of violence, the socially shunned and poor Roma folk would be coordinating attacks every week.

Every time there's been an economical downturn in Europe, we've seen the rise of neo nazis and fascism. But when I marched I the streets in the 90's protesting neo nazism, no one was making excuses for the ideology based on the economical situation and, telling me
I shouldn't criticize the neo nazis, because that could upset the poor "peaceful nationalists".

Violent terrorism is vastly overrepresented among adherents to Islam. Pedophiles are vastly overrepresented among Catholic priests. Let's try to find out WHY, instead of partaking in denialism.

I know it's not the PEOPLE themselves, because in essence, we're all the fucking same. All this grouping of people as "Muslims" or "Non-muslims" etc isn't helpful IMO, and it's just furthering the divide between us. There's people, and then there's ideas. They're not one and the same.
Click to expand...

I can agree with most of this... before we figure out the underlying causes of these issues, all we do is treating symptoms at best.
 
EmSeta said:
There's (unfortunately) no lack of underprivileged social groupings in Europe. If poverty was the main driving force of violence, the socially shunned and poor Roma folk would be coordinating attacks every week.

Every time there's been an economical downturn in Europe, we've seen the rise of neo nazis and fascism. But when I marched I the streets in the 90's protesting neo nazism, no one was making excuses for the ideology based on the economical situation and, telling me I shouldn't criticize the neo nazis, because that could upset the poor "peaceful nationalists".

Violent terrorism is vastly overrepresented among adherents to Islam. Pedophiles are vastly overrepresented among Catholic priests. Let's try to find out WHY, instead of partaking in denialism.

I know it's not the PEOPLE themselves, because in essence, we're all the fucking same. All this grouping of people as "Muslims" or "Non-muslims" etc isn't helpful IMO, and it's just furthering the divide between us. There's people, and then there's ideas. They're not one and the same.
Click to expand...

I fully agree.

For some reason, when Islamists commit crimes in the name of their religion, their self-declared motivations are doubted and a larger, more complex context summoned as the real and prime explanation. Nobody ever does that for racists, homophobes, or other perpetrators of bigoted violence. We believe a racist when he says that he did what he did out of racism, but we don't believe an Islamist when he says that he did what he did because he thinks its his divine calling to fight for Islamic supremacy against the infidel and his corrupting culture.
 
Lol one Muslim Brotherhood member is condemning Arabic Gulf States for expressing condolences to France and lighting up their buildings with the French flag.

Again if you want to find the root of extremism in the Middle East look at who is mixing religion with politics.
 
chadskin said:
https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/

Valls also reiterated what Hollande said previously, that the attack was planned in Syria with complicity in France, in addition to calling it an act of war as well. I strongly assume they're both preparing to invoke NATO's article 5 as soon as the investigation is concluded.
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Would this mean that NATO allies would be committed to war in Syria/Iraq (again)? Or could member states refuse to participate? And if they did, could this mean that NATO alliance would in effect change as we know if?
 
ElTorro said:
I fully agree.

For some reason, when Islamists commit crimes in the name of their religion, their self-declared motivations are doubted and a larger, more complex context summoned as the real and prime explanation. Nobody ever does that for racists, homophobes, or other perpetrators of bigoted violence. We believe a racist when he says that he did what he did out of racism, but we don't believe an Islamist when he says that he did what he did because he thinks its his divine calling to fight for Islamic supremacy against the infidel and his corrupting culture.
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Nobody ever does that, huh?
 
Laughing Banana said:
Nobody ever does that, huh?
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Do you have prominent examples where a racist murdered people, claimed to have done so driven by his racist conviction, and people subsequently claimed that he is not really acting as a racist, he is only expressing his identity politics grievances? Because that is what happens every single time Islamists attack Western targets.
 
ElTorro said:
Do you have prominent examples where a racist murdered people, claimed to have done so driven by his racist conviction, and people subsequently claimed that he is not really acting as a racist, he is only expressing his identity politics grievances?
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Islam as a religion/belief may play a part in what drives the terrorist did what they did like in this case, but to suggest that the social/political/economical situation didn't play a part--a significant part--in why these tragedies are happening is very ignorant. In fact, all it does is to create a scary boogeyman that drives unthinking people to commit acts like mosque burning in Canada someone posted in here earlier.
 
Laughing Banana said:
Islam as a religion/belief may play a part in what drives the terrorist did what they did like in this case, but to suggest that the social/political/economical situation didn't play a part--a significant part--in why these tragedies are happening is very ignorant. In fact, all it does is to create a scary boogeyman that drives unthinking people to commit acts like mosque burning in Canada someone posted in here earlier.
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This is not what I said (see quote with bolded parts), and you didn't answer my question.

For some reason, when Islamists commit crimes in the name of their religion, their self-declared motivations are doubted and a larger, more complex context summoned as the real and prime explanation. Nobody ever does that for racists, homophobes, or other perpetrators of bigoted violence. We believe a racist when he says that he did what he did out of racism, but we don't believe an Islamist when he says that he did what he did because he thinks its his divine calling to fight for Islamic supremacy against the infidel and his corrupting culture.
Click to expand...

And just because some people are afraid of any hypothetical consequences of talking about the connection of Islam and Islamism and terror attacks by Islamists, we should not deny the connections or be silent about them. Which would be indeed using a scarecrow to influence the debate. The fact that you only concede that Islam "may" play a part of it is indeed incredibly ignorant. And it's also the tactic that the Islamist movement employs to turn our Western awareness of minorities and identity politics against us to silence the discussion.
 
Laughing Banana said:
Islam as a religion/belief may play a part in what drives the terrorist did what they did like in this case, but to suggest that the social/political/economical situation didn't play a part--a significant part--in why these tragedies are happening is very ignorant. In fact, all it does is to create a scary boogeyman that drives unthinking people to commit acts like mosque burning in Canada someone posted in here earlier.
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Then why are all the non-muslims in the same social/political/economical situation not blowing themselves up, joining extremists groups and attacking random civilians?
 
spwolf said:
As horrible as it gets... It goes without saying that every terror attack is horrible.

It got me seriously re-thinking going to Euro 2016 next year in France. I live pretty close, so it would be fun trip for me and friends but I have no desire to relive 90's.
Click to expand...

You are more likely to get killed walking or driving to work.
 
Shuggananas said:
Breivik says hi.
An exception yes, but it happens.
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Yes, and Breivik did what he did because of social-econimic and geopolitical issues, not because he was a believing white supremacist. And all commentators recognized and stressed that fact.

Oh, wait...
 
SpaceBridge said:
Would this mean that NATO allies would be committed to war in Syria/Iraq (again)? Or could member states refuse to participate? And if they did, could this mean that NATO alliance would in effect change as we know if?
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Article 5 has only been invoked once, by the the US after 9/11. Then, indeed all NATO members participated in various military missions in Afghanistan and later as part of the ISAF.

That said, a member state is not legally bound to participate, there are no sanctions or the like and, in light of the Russian aggression in Ukraine, some NATO members like the Baltics fear not all NATO members would come to their defense should Russia make a move into the Baltics, out of fear to start a third World War over "some small countries".

With ISIS though, NATO will certainly seek to show unity and have all member states participate.

Archer's link has a good timeline of events that would/should happen, in case France indeed decides to invoke article 5:

Archer said:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/14/natos-turn-to-attack-paris-terrorist-isis/
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ElTorro said:
I fully agree.

For some reason, when Islamists commit crimes in the name of their religion, their self-declared motivations are doubted and a larger, more complex context summoned as the real and prime explanation. Nobody ever does that for racists, homophobes, or other perpetrators of bigoted violence. We believe a racist when he says that he did what he did out of racism, but we don't believe an Islamist when he says that he did what he did because he thinks its his divine calling to fight for Islamic supremacy against the infidel and his corrupting culture.
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This attack was retaliation to the French airstrikes - straight from the horses mouth.
 
ElTorro said:
This is not what I said (see quote with bolded parts), and you didn't answer my question.



And just because some people are afraid of any hypothetical consequences of talking about the connection of Islam and Islamism and terror attacks by Islamists, we should not deny the connections or be silent about them. Which would be indeed using a scarecrow to influence the debate. The fact that you only concede that Islam "may" play a part of it is indeed incredibly ignorant. And it's also the tactic that the Islamist movement employs to turn our Western awareness of minorities and identity politics against us to silence the discussion.
Click to expand...

Who is this hypothetical "we" that you talked about? "We believe a racist when he says..." "We don't believe an Islamist..." Who are they? Because plenty of people actually believed that, like I am sure the person that burned that mosque in Canada do, like I am sure many people in the US and Europe and elsewhere do, like many people in GAF do (not that I am not equating people who believed that as mosque-burning maniacs). I am just finding it a bit irksome that you are treating Islam as some sort of a "darling" of these kinds of discussions when we have so many examples of how people actually thinking otherwise and how it can--and have--caused innocent Muslims around the world suffering as a result.

And sure, "may" could be an understatement, I concede, though I did not do that deliberately.

And yes, just like velociraptor stated above me, the attack was explicitly stated by the perps as a retaliation to the French actions in Syria.

neorej said:
Then why are all the non-muslims in the same social/political/economical situation not blowing themselves up, joining extremists groups and attacking random civilians?
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Well, the recent story of radical Buddhist in Myanmar/Burma beating up and killing Muslim over an alleged incident of that Muslim eating a cow--which was later disproven--or the incidents of Rohingya Muslims, came to mind.
 
neorej said:
Then why are all the non-muslims in the same social/political/economical situation not blowing themselves up, joining extremists groups and attacking random civilians?
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I'm pretty sure here in the USA most terrorist attacks are performed by Christian extremist.
 
velociraptor said:
This attack was retaliation to the French airstrikes - straight from the horses mouth.
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It was conducted by people who fight to install a state that wants to install a society under Wahhabi Islam. These people don't care about their deaths, or the deaths of their fellow innocent Muslims. They didn't attack France to deter it from attacking again. They attacked France to lure it into even more war, as well as to rile up the West against innocent Muslim refugees. Because they want war. And they want war, because they are crazy apocalyptic Wahhabis who believe in the supremacy of the people of Islam over the others and the corrupt Western culture, and because of that they want to provoke an all out war in the name of their faith.

And we now know that the perpetrators of these attacks are traced back to Wahhabi communities in Belgium where they surely—like always—recruited and radicalized people with common grievances through the narrative of their version of Islam and Islamic supremacy.

Yes, this is all motivated by their version of Islam.
 
JoseLopez said:
I'm pretty sure here in the USA most terrorist attacks are performed by Christian extremist.
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Random shootings aren't terrorism. Terrorism is using force, spreading fear, in order to achieve your goal. Some kid shooting up some place because #YOLO isn't terrorism by any definition of the word.
 
SpaceBridge said:
Would this mean that NATO allies would be committed to war in Syria/Iraq (again)? Or could member states refuse to participate? And if they did, could this mean that NATO alliance would in effect change as we know if?
Click to expand...

Every member must offer support, up to and including military support. So there is wiggle room.
 
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