That dream died with Greece debt.
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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.
- Thread starter chadskin
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That dream died with Greece debt.
Palette Swap
Member
I agree with the general sentiment (minus children who are victims and should be helped / rehabilitated) but the logistics and legality of making people stateless are shaky.
It's kind of the same problem as what we do with these guys when they're caught. The (vaguely) humane thing to do is to throw them in our nails, except we don't want them proselytizing in prison either. Not to mention how do we evaluate when a co-conspirator should be released? Do we throw away the key and forget about them?
I'm mentioning all these issues because they expose the same fracture between our gut feeling (take all these fuckers out) and our western democracies' values and principles. I have honestly no idea what the right answer is but neither is entirely satisfying.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
My Facebook feed has been pretty tame. Just kind words, "prayers" and people reminding others not to let the far-right parties take advantage of the situation.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
some plebs put a banner over a bridge nearby from me with "Immigrants not welcome, Britain is full"
Some EDL movement bollocks, then idiots on my feed shared it :/
superdeluxe
Member
The Associated Press @AP
BREAKING: French President Hollande says victims in the Paris attacks are of 19 different nationalities.
BREAKING: French President Hollande says victims in the Paris attacks are of 19 different nationalities.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Hollande wants to modify our Constitution to have a better option to act in these kind of situations.
Resident_UA
Member
EdwardTivrusky
Member
To do what exactly? Remove liberties from average citizens? I hope the French people don't fall for that.
superdeluxe
Member
Paris attacks: France to extend state of emergency by three months live
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...s-isis-raqqa-syria-live?CMP=twt_gu?CMP=twt_gu
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...s-isis-raqqa-syria-live?CMP=twt_gu?CMP=twt_gu
Noooo... Please don't make the same stupid mistake that America made...
For now, he only talked about adding the possibility to revoke the french nationality to someone suspected/convinced (not sure which) of terrorism if said person has at least another nationality, and refuse entry in the territory to anyone having at least another nationality if there are strong suspicions.
Edit: oh yeah, and he didn't get into details, but he wants to reform the state of emergency, as it is no longer adapted to modern times.
superdeluxe
Member
Putting in controls for internal/external borders, is a fair response to this.
Resident_UA
Member
I'm OK with that... But if somebody is terrorist the least of their problems should be which nationality they have
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Probably to cover COP21 in December and some other summits early next year.
Alx
Member
Noooo... Please don't make the same stupid mistake that America made...
It depends on what he wants to change exactly. From what I understand from extracts of his speech, it's about including the "state of emergency" rules in it. Right now that procedure is not part of the Constitution, there is a "state of siege" but it seems made for old-fashioned wars, and transfers all authority from police force to the army (which is not really what we'd need to do in the current situation).
I suppose he wants to make it easier for the President to declare a state of emergency for a given duration, considering right now it requires the approbation of the government for the first few days, then of the Parliament for longer periods.
relevant quote :
SomedayTheFire
Member
I'm OK with that... But if somebody is terrorist the least of their problems should be which nationality they have
But you can't remove someone from the country if they are a national.
I'm OK with that... But if somebody is terrorist the least of their problems should be which nationality they have
Not really; if their second nationality isn't from the EU, they lose all aventages of having a nationality from the Shengen community.
I'm doubtful how useful this'll be, I'd guess most don't have double (or more) nationalities (at least not that France know of)... But well, you can't exactly make someone stateless.
BlazingDarkness
Member
These seem like good countermeasures IMO.
Going down that road is very dangerous. The definitions of what constitutes terrorism changes over the years. That's the problem with the words terrorism and terrorist. It can be interpreted very broadly.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Resident_UA
Member
If they start kicking out Muslims just because they feel that they might be terrorists this will cause more damage then help. And if they are suspected terrorists they should be watched no matter what their nationality is... I don't see the point of this specific provision.
Alx
Member
Yeah the law will have to be written very thoughtfully to not allow any kind of abuse in the future. Although French used to be called the "language of diplomacy" because we have people obsessive about the precise meaning of each word. Hopefully our law writers haven't lost the knack of it, but any change to the Constitution is usually scrutinized very closely.
Yes, especially if we manage to make it a joint European effort (one can dream...). It would be nice if we could have a common action without each country bickering, for a change.
This has nothing to do with being muslim. At all. You are completely out of the loop. This is about people associating themselves with terrorism.
It's not like french muslims go to syria every week on vacation to talk to isis leaders.
They are safe. It's targeted.
SomedayTheFire
Member
They are currently watched, but this allows the French government to remove any rights associated with being French (i.e. freedom of movement in europe etc.) if they're major suspects of terrorism.
There's also the fact that a country like Saudi Arabia has very little incentive to take refugees.
Some refugees from war-torn countries might be intellectuals who possess strong political opinions, which may not serve the installed autocraties well. The relative proximity of the border might also lead to massive droves of migrants which would be harder to keep under control.
Germany, on the other side, has been struggling with dwindling fertility rates for a long time. Aside from the fact that opening its doors to a huge amounts of Syrians makes Germany look generous and selfless in the eyes of the West, one might emit the hypothesis that declining birth rates were a factor that helped tilt the scales. At the rate of 3 children per woman, the initial figure of 800 000 Syrian migrants had the potential to bring up to 2 million new German citizens over the span of one single generation, assuming the parents took citizenship. The later figure of 1.5 million migrants could ideally turn into 3.75 million Germans. That would be, at least, the beginning of a quick fix to buffer the upcoming fall in population.
superdeluxe
Member
Not that difficult decision to make.
Resident_UA
Member
I said "IF". If that doesn't happen it's fine. I'm just saying that it could. I'm acknowledging that there's a lot higher chance that the terrorists could be Muslim. They need to be sure that there's a lot stronger evidence than that.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Edit: ignore, seems like garbage passed as real.
SliChillax
Member
Monsters. I wish they would rot in a rat hole until forever instead of dying. These monsters embrace death, they should be punished for life.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'd rather ignore it.
I checked the source a few times after posting it and it seems REALLY pesky. Unless I missed something big, I don't recall anything regarding a shootout such as the one depicted there* (and without speakers to check the sound, I'd rather delete that shit). Apologies.
*I've been following the situation from the TV due to a number of reasons and coverage has been surprisingly terrible so far when it comes to the timeline. Again, apologies for diseminating that video. I'm very sorry.
Edit: Lo and behold, that trash seemed to originate in Brazil. Could you please edit that it doesn't disseminate any more?
SliChillax
Member
Showed it to a friend of mine he told me it's an old video from Brazil.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Yeah, better unquote that shit so it doesn't spread through Google. I was on mobile and I fucked up.
Edit: Now that I'm on my computer, I feel even more embarrassed for falling for that shit. Ugh.
Edit 2: For the record, I only posted that video because this was sent to my by a friend working at a local newspaper (and not a small one). Which is harrowing by itself. Sigh.
Edit: Now that I'm on my computer, I feel even more embarrassed for falling for that shit. Ugh.
Edit 2: For the record, I only posted that video because this was sent to my by a friend working at a local newspaper (and not a small one). Which is harrowing by itself. Sigh.
SliChillax
Member
No big deal, don't worry about it so much.
Chronospherics
Member
I really don't understand the 'solidarity for Paris movement', at least not at an individual level. What does the mass changing of facebook profile pictures mean to the people that lost loved ones in this incident? It seems so arbitrary and meaningless.
Not trying to be offensive, I just feel that many people are so quick to jump to show 'support' when that support has no expense, and I don't just mean financial.
Not trying to be offensive, I just feel that many people are so quick to jump to show 'support' when that support has no expense, and I don't just mean financial.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I get where you're coming from, but it's mostly harmless and I suppose it can help raise awareness with people who may actually be able to help in a more concrete way.
It's their way of showing how much they care. Some might be sincere, others disingenuous. You can usually tell who's who by the frequency and target of their solidarity.
I'm sure they'll find some explanation as to why this wasn't the prophecized war, but the next war will be.
Do they actually know that there is no roman empire anymore?
Substitute "Western powers" for "Holy Roman Empire".
Chronospherics
Member
But the gesture is so small, how does it show anything?
Maybe if facebook didn't implement an automated feature, it might mean more, but as it is, you flip a switch for social approval. Indeed, there may be people that genuinely care within the people that use the feature, but I don't believe that using this feature is at all indicative of that, at all.
It's like, how quick emotes and chat acronyms mean less on the internet. Lol doesn't mean the person laughed, or even found what was said especially funny, but because of its accessibility and ease of use people use it for various alternative purposes that completely devalue, and detract from its meaning.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
NicoLeNano
Neo Member
Well, for a group that is said to take the Quran literally, that'd be a shame.
Their argument is that the Quran is the word of God, and therefore necessarly right, right? So it should say "ennemies of the west" or something like that, not roman empire.
/s, though I'd be interested to hear how ISIS supporters would get out of that one
Chronospherics
Member
I didn't say it was bad though, did I? I said it was meaningless. The second quote doesn't make much sense generically applying models of anxiety to this scenario without much thought. If you suspect someone that might be affected, you should SHOW that you care, not about France as a nation, but about them, and their well being.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I was at VT when the shooting happened in 2007. Seeing all of the support meant a lot, even little stuff like changing a profile picture to a commemorative ribbon. It creates a sense of community and togetherness instead of solitude, which is comforting in times like these.
Lan Dong Mik
And why would I want them?
Jesus, so the mastermind of these Paris attacks is still at large? Fucking terrifying
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