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[AppleMIX]

I've learned a long time ago to separate what someone creates from who someone is.

I'm sure any convention will have someone running it with vastly different political views than I do whether it is transphobia, racism, sexism etc...

Sure, I think it could be argued with merit that they are transphobic. However, that has nothing to do with PAX in my opinion and everything to do with that specific individual.

 

[IrishNinja]

okay yeah some of this is getting hyperbolic

Explain to me the goal of a post that says "Wow Penny Arcade is full of disgusting morons."

well there's not much to work with there, i should've specified that i was looking at the first one you quoted (which i did too) as a valid possible take after reading the info at the OP's link...not a take you agree with, clearly, but not one i thought warranted reading comprehension/conclusion problem shots either

that's completely understandable but it's not fair to make no effort to understand this proposal within the context of PAX's current structure, letting the history of two men involved in the convention justify completely overlooking any potential positives or redeeming factors

fair enough, and while i think most here would understand PA/PAX is obviously much larger than 2 men & requires the efforts of a great many more people, for better or worse they are it's figureheads. when gabe says ignorant/bigoted stuff, that reflects on the brand; its just kinda how it works.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I'd be more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he say, actually wrote an adult apology for his intolerance and bigotry.

What's the worst that could happen if you reached out to him and asked him? Have you?

 

[Mushroomer25]

It isn't being singled out? There's a separate room for diversity. That's the definition of being singled out.

So indie games are unwelcome at PAX? Because they're "singled out" as well.

 

[neither]

I love threads like these... great for letting me know who on Gaf to set to Ignore.

This.
I'm watching y'all...

 

[Pixels]

hyperbole hyperbolic insert neogaf buzword of the week

 

[Bobs Big Boy]

PAX already has a central rule of "Don't be a D-Bag". It's not like the convention has turned into a live-action forum, where people shout racial expletives with pride. The convention as it is, is a fun gathering place for like-minded gamers.
That doesn't mean it's a great place for discussion though. Sure you have panels & spots to hang out - but I see the appeal in having a designated spot for people to meet up & talk about a common issue. Someplace quiet, far away enough from the hectic part of the show floor so it feels more calm.
You're confusing the realities of planning & running a convention with censorship.

Have a good time at Prime, it's the most open-minded convention I've been to and I do think this is a start. Do see that having one area for a kind of discussion is potentially limiting for what is being discussed although also do not think it will limit people from talking about the issues generally. Would hope it'd get a necessary conversation started and spark a wider conversation throughout.

 

[Valtýr]

It isn't being singled out? There's a separate room for diversity. That's the definition of being singled out.

If it was being singled out it would be the only such occurrence of a subject being allotted a room for discussion and information. But it's not.

Again, it seems you lack the basic understanding of how this convention operates. The main floor is for video games and video game booths. Along the sides of the center are meeting rooms which are assigned to various companies or given a specific purpose. Some are for playing classic games, others are for promoting products or games. One such room is being allotted so information and discussion regarding this topic can occurr. How is this bad? They aren't hiding it in a corner in the basement. It's given the same opportunity and space as every single other topic.

 

[Fantastical]

I'm sure you know this, but it's still worth pointing out that it's not even necessarily *for* minorities, because that would imply it's exclusionary. It's *for* everyone interested in those issues.

Yes, that's a very good point.

 

[Mushroomer25]

Have a good time at Prime, it's the most open-minded convention I've been to and I do think this is a start. Do see that having one area for a kind of discussion is potentially limiting for what is being discussed although also do not think it will limit people from talking about the issues generally. Would hope it'd get a necessary conversation started and spark a wider conversation throughout.

I think it's a necessary evil. Yes, focusing discussion to one area means that discussion might not occur elsewhere. But at the same time, I don't think that discussion would happen at all if it weren't for those spaces. If people who want to talk about this don't have a specific place to gather, they're not going to.

 

[Fantastical]

It isn't being singled out? There's a separate room for diversity. That's the definition of being singled out.

There is not a "separate room for diversity." There is another room for diversity, one in which is solely committed to discussing diversity, minority representation, and networking, but it is not the sole room for this.

EDIT: As stated in another post, "room" may be incorrect.

What are opinions on gay clubs and committees in universities and high schools? Shouldn't every committee be fostering this discussion which makes this segregation?

 

[SketchTheArtist]

Could the OP add the press release info so that we may have a less hostile thread?

It'd be cool to discuss the actual details of this rather than have a mob talk about a thread title and some half-truths.

 

[Pastry]

So indie games are unwelcome at PAX? Because they're "singled out" as well.

I can't believe you're comparing indie games to systemic racism in America (and the world at large).

Again, it seems you lack the basic understanding of how this convention operates. The main floor is for video games and video game booths. Along the sides of the center are meeting rooms which are assigned to various companies or given a specific purpose. Some are for playing classic games, others are for promoting products or games. One such room is being allotted so information and discussion regarding this topic can occurr. How is this bad? They aren't hiding it in a corner in the basement. It's given the same opportunity and space as every single other topic.

The issue is that this shouldn't be relegated to a floor or room.

 

[Mesoian]

Why not just rooms for people? You know, people?

Because then people would complain that they DON'T cater to people who don't consider themselves "normal".

I swear, they just can't win with some of you people. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

[Solid Samus]

It isn't being singled out? There's a separate room for diversity. That's the definition of being singled out.

We don't even know that it'll be a 'separate room' yet but it's not a 'separate room for diversity' regardless. again, again, this shit is brought up all around pax. if anything it's a room pertaining to diversity dialogue and discussion for those interested or vested enough in the topics to explore them further. I mean, seriously, what the fuck do you expect? And don't handwave me some bullshit 'and questions like that are why this shit gets by etc.', give me a straight answer. Even despite PA's bullshit, why is, in addition to dialogue being promoted elsewhere within the expo, there being a resource capable of linking minds and opinions to further articulate interested parties and minds within the industry a 'bad thing'? You think they can wave a magic wand and make every douchebag that might show up into a better person who will instantly know better? Fuck no. PAX isn't some place where there's one big main theater and panels are mandatory attendance. The most the expo planners can do is try to promote a more understanding and informed outlook among as many people as they can (which they've been making attempts at doing, including with aforementioned panels n shit as well as utilizing a volunteer watch force and as of late decreasing their 'this shit will fly' threshold beyond most expos), because general perception doesn't shift overnight. This is a step forward in the regard that both developers and consumer minds capable of influencing other minds over time now have a concerted place in which to have their questions answered and have someone who might be dealing with the same issues or someone who might be looking into the same issues a place to quickly connect.

The issue is that this shouldn't be relegated to a floor or room.

The actual issues aren't relegated to a floor or a room, and are often presented through sectioned off panels and booths and 'segregated' to the same degree as everything else at PAX - meaning it's all public and to your own discretion, and in this case, now as opposed to any other time or anywhere else if you find yourself interested in the issue at hand presented elsewhere at pax there's a place to discuss and network - and this bears repeating ten thousand fold, apparently

Its a goddamn CONVENTION, every single thing there is "separated" so topics and discussions can actually have a focus.

Bolded for flavor

 

[Marcel]

What's the worst that could happen if you reached out to him and asked him? Have you?

Why should I have to coddle a public figure into recanting his public stupidity? Is he actually a child who needs to be prodded into saying sorry? Why is it singularly my responsibility?

 

[Mesoian]

Why should I have to coddle a public figure into recanting his public stupidity? Is he actually a child who needs to be prodded into saying sorry? Why is it singularly my responsibility?

Because you're complaining about it. You want someone else to complain for you?

 

[nStruct]

The thread title makes this sound much worse than it actually is. The Penny Arcade guys do some dumb things, but this isn't one of them.

 

[mollipen]

Sorry if I've missed it, but have they specifically stated how you can be a part of these lounges (beyond just visiting them)? Do you just go? Or are they looking for people to connect with who might be able to help out?

We're looking to do our sixth trans-focused panel at the next PAX East, so I'm definitely interested in what this is going to be about. I'm not going to say it was a bad idea until I see it was a bad idea. For me, if it's more of a chance to answer questions and help people understand the trans community, that's a good thing.

 

[Mushroomer25]

I can't believe you're comparing indie games to systemic racism in America (and the world at large).

I can't believe that you're comparing convention organization to Nazi Germany.

 

[blamite]

Uuuuugh I keep going back and forth in my mind about whether this is a terrible idea or not. I think it really depends on ow they're presented and what they're used for? I think the intent is obviously good, but it'll be so easy for this to turn into a PR disaster and based on how this thread has gone so far that seems ell underway, which maybe isn't totally fair.

I don't know, I really don't think anybody at Penny Arcade has bad intentions but when they're so visible it's really easy for them to get in a ton of trouble just by saying things... I don't know, it's kind of a rough situation for everyone.

 

[Valtýr]

The issue is that this shouldn't be relegated to a floor or room.

Alright then. Why?

 

[robot]

hmmmm...a lounge focused on an old wooden ship. not sure I understand.

 

[Nome]

The issue is that this shouldn't be relegated to a floor or room.

I disagree. I think by creating a nexus for dialogue, they're putting the spotlight on the issue.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Why should I have to coddle a public figure into recanting his public stupidity? Is he actually a child who needs to be prodded into saying sorry? Why is it singularly my responsibility?

It isn't all on your shoulders, but it's a path that's still open to you if you're honest about wanting an apology. Mike's said a lot of stupid, thoughtless shit in the last several years but if the desire is for him to become enlightened a strict disengagement from him and the things his organization attempts to mend the fences is not the most productive way to go about it.

 

[Mesoian]

Sorry if I've missed it, but have they specifically stated how you can be a part of these lounges (beyond just visiting them)? Do you just go? Or are they looking for people to connect with who might be able to help out?

We're looking to do our sixth trans-focused panel at the next PAX East, so I'm definitely interested in what this is going to be about. I'm not going to say it was a bad idea until I see it was a bad idea. For me, if it's more of a chance to answer questions and help people understand the trans community, that's a good thing.

Careful now, least you be accused of wrangling up all the people who don't fit the status quo in order to separate them from the rest of the people who operate on a traditional everyday sense of privilege, or at least, that's what quite a few people in this thread would have you believe.

It's amazing how toxic the mere concept of discussing such topics is around here. Try to organize something where an actual discussion can be held, and you're a biggot. Foster panels that allow educated people to discuss very real problems with race or sexuality in society, and you're a biggot. Actively ignore all of these things, and you're a biggot.

The issue is that this shouldn't be relegated to a floor or room.

Then where are you supposed to have the discussion?

 

[JLS213]

Because then people would complain that they DON'T cater to people who don't consider themselves "normal".

I swear, they just can't win with some of you people. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

pretty much this.

 

[unknownstranger]

Yes separate a gaming convention by the colors of peoples skins and genders instead of, you, know, GAMES.

Is it really that crazy to instead separate PAX into sections like indies, kid-friendly, mature rated, publishers, etc?

I've never been to PAX so I'm not sure if they do this already.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Not sure if bringing attention to people deviating from the norm is such a good idea.
Yes, it might highlight their struggles and situation, and help the norm better empathize with them, but it can just as likely serve to focus bigotry and hate by providing clear targets.

 

[Marcel]

Because you're complaining about it. You want someone else to complain for you?

Yeah because me not writing to Transphobe Mike of Penny Arcade totally dismisses everything I had to say. Puh-lease.

 

[grandjedi6]

It isn't being singled out? There's a separate room for diversity. That's the definition of being singled out.

It's a convention. The ENTIRE POINT is to promote and single out various topics in designated rooms and booths. That's how it works.

Would you rather they hold this in the hallway next to the bathroom?

 

[Mesoian]

Edit: Vitriol. Wasn't fair. This thread is bad and we should all feel bad.

 

[JLS213]

Why should I have to coddle a public figure into recanting his public stupidity? Is he actually a child who needs to be prodded into saying sorry? Why is it singularly my responsibility?

hey, one person can change the world you know. what if it's you? you'll never know if you don't try. this truly is the entitlement generation it seems...

 

[BennyBlanco]

i liked PAX the time i went but i can't support this buffoonery

mike krahulik is just so incredibly unpleasant

 

[The Silver]

I can't believe you're comparing indie games to systemic racism in America (and the world at large).



The issue is that this shouldn't be relegated to a floor or room.

Its a goddamn CONVENTION, every single thing there is "separated" so topics and discussions can actually have a focus.

 

[Marcel]

So...you do want someone else to complain for you?

So you are attempting to dismiss my dislike of an actual transphobic person because I haven't written to him? This cyclical gotcha shit is really going places.

 

[SteveWinwood]

oh my god some of you people cant read at all

 

[Rafterman]

Why are people attacking this and comparing it to segregation.

Oh they just read the headline.

Carry on..

..but nothing wrong with this. At least they are trying, and they have in the past. Mike's done some stupid shit, sure.. but he seems to be growing from it. The community would be better trying to educate someone like that instead of constantly attack.

It wouldn't matter what they did or didn't do at this point, or what they called it. The usual suspects would just use it as an excuse to fling shit at PA. People around here seem to think one man's idiotic statements outweigh the tons of good that PA have done over the years .

 

[Mushroomer25]

So you are attempting to dismiss my dislike of an actual transphobic person because I haven't written to him? This cyclical gotcha shit is really going places.

I think the point is that if you want an apology, perhaps you should ask for it.

 

[JLS213]

It wouldn't matter what they did or didn't do at this point, or what they called it. The usual suspects would just use it as an excuse to fling shit at PA. People around here seem to think one man's idiotic statements outweigh the tons of good that PA have done over the years .

agreed. the proof is all in this thread already. it's sad actually

 

[rocketskates]

Wait what's a dickwolf. Like Nightlight?

 

[Dead Man]

Massively missing the point here.

Big time.

Yeah, all they have to do is being fuckwits. None of this diversity lounge rubbish. Just don't be fuckwits.

 

[Mesoian]

So you are attempting to dismiss my dislike of an actual transphobic person because I haven't written to him? This cyclical gotcha shit is really going places.

No, I was, unjustly so, projecting my frustrations with this thread upon you because so many people seem hellbent on presenting the mere topic of this thread with snark and drive by posts opposed to actually taking 1 second to read the OP and realize what it's talking about. I mean shit dude, we have people in this thread saying that a FLOOR isn't enough space to have a meaningful discussion about minorities of any type in gaming or otherwise.

I edited my post and apologize for the comment. But people in this thread aren't even trying and it's bumming me out because, regardless of what you think of Mike from Penny Arcade, someone who probably won't even be at this part of the show due to time constraints, people have already pegged this as a bad idea because "that guy said some dumb shit once so I guess nothing good can come out of that organization ever again! Let's go burn some more effigies!"

 

[Marcel]

agreed. the proof is all in this thread already. it's sad actually

What's actually sad is people running free damage control for a transphobe. Mike should be paying you. As some people have suggested, you should simply just ask him about paying you.

 

[MC_Hify]

We doing this again? Okay.

Come on guys pile on! Those knees don't jerk themselves!

Whatever you do don't actually read the document to get any actual context.

 

[Cartman86]

Don't know what to think. Mixed feelings mainly because of PA and gaming's history.

 

[Solid Samus]

What's actually sad is people running free damage control for a transphobe. Mike should be paying you. As some people have suggested, you should simply just ask him about paying you.

You wanna talk about gotcha shit but you're more than ready and willing to pretend the entirety of the discussion here amounts to nothing but 'free damage control'. Shit. I don't even like these fucks and I don't think I've ever supported them directly in any fashion, I'm just using some reason here. Your standpoint is understandable because no matter how you look at, giving the two in charge the benefit of the doubt does play a part into how you'll perceive this. I'm not necessarily giving them a free pass but that doesn't mean I'm not going to let reductive bullshit fly because a lot of the logic opposing this proposal is flat out, demonstrably flawed.

 

[Tablo]

I really don't think this is a good idea.

 

[Clefargle]

Is this segregation?

 

[Rafterman]

What's actually sad is people running free damage control for a transphobe. Mike should be paying you. As some people have suggested, you should simply just ask him about paying you.

People aren't running damage control for anyone. We are in a discussion about plans for PAX, you're the ones that are trying to use past transgressions as an excuse to shit on these current ideas. Mike != PAX, and it's sad that you can't see past your own nose to see that their tackling these issues might actually be a good thing. But, yeah, go ahead and keep complaining that you haven't gotten an apology and that because of that they are incapable of doing anything right.