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[Doctor_Thomas]

Firstly, it's hilarious the lengths people will go to defend this knowing the history of the organisers

Secondly, calling it a "safe area" sounds closer to "this is a room where you can be a freak" rather than any meaningful way of talking about diversity, based on the first point.

I just have a hard time believing this is a legitimate attempt at trying to bring discussion or any sort of understanding and not an attempt for Mike to be all "LOOK, I'M A MODERN GUY AND I DON'T JUDGE!" before he makes a dick of himself on Twitter again.

 

[Shingro]

Sorry if I've missed it, but have they specifically stated how you can be a part of these lounges (beyond just visiting them)? Do you just go? Or are they looking for people to connect with who might be able to help out?

We're looking to do our sixth trans-focused panel at the next PAX East, so I'm definitely interested in what this is going to be about. I'm not going to say it was a bad idea until I see it was a bad idea. For me, if it's more of a chance to answer questions and help people understand the trans community, that's a good thing.

Wait, really? That's a lot of panels for a place that's supposed to be some sort of Mount Doom for tolerance.

In your experience has it been an awful convention in terms of tolerance (attendees etc.)or not? I'd value a first hand perspective.

 

[Animal]

I am all for their equal rights but I can't help but wonder if this is a good idea. The details of its implementation are unclear to me right now.

I don't understand why we need to single them out and have an area for them. I want them to just be other people like me walking around and enjoying PAX.

On the other hand I am all for the awareness agenda but I'm not sure a lounge is the best method.

 

[Funchameleon]

Penny Arcade are striving hard to increase their terrible awful shit quotient year over year in the most left-field ways possible.

 

[mollipen]

I really don't think this is a good idea.

Via my panel, I have, at most, 50 minutes to talk about trans-related issues, and to hopefully educate people on them. And that's one moment in time when people might be busy with other things, might be at other panels, might not have a badge for that day, etc.

If I can then spend time at a part of the event where people know they can go to specifically learn about that and other LGBT-related topics, isn't that a good thing? This isn't segregation—it's offering up a known and concrete space where people can go to either meet other people like them, or to learn more about people not like them.

Isn't that a good thing?

Wait, really? That's a lot of panels for a place that's supposed to be some sort of Mount Doom for tolerance.

In your experience has it been an awful convention in terms of tolerance (attendees etc.)or not? I'd value a first hand perspective.

In my experience PAX has been pretty wonderful. The first panel we did, the room was packed, and a number of people came up to us afterward to thank us for what we did. Since then, we haven't quite had the same room-filling crowds—I wish we did—but we've still had people come to our panels either because they're glad we're talking about such issues, or because they want to know more about those issues.

I've heard from a few people who have run into issues, but they're the kinds of things you expect when you've got that many people coming together in one place. No matter what, you're going to have some bad apples. On the most part, PAX seems to be very friendly towards LGBT gamers, and most of the time people seem to be able to walk around without being harassed or singled out or anything like that.

Of course, I can only talk about my own experiences, and what I've heard from others.

 

[sleepykyo]

Sweet, ghettos for those who dare question the dickwolves.

Safe space sounds better.

 

[tbm24]

What's actually sad is people running free damage control for a transphobe. Mike should be paying you. As some people have suggested, you should simply just ask him about paying you.

Reading your responses in this thread, I really do question what it is you want because it doesn't seem like an apology would even matter to you since you're so keen on emphasizing how much of a transphobe/bigot he is based on one event. I just find getting upset at the fact that an individual who was ignorant of an issue because seemingly he has never been presented with it, was ignorant of it.

In any case, this is a PAX event. This is something new PAX is trying to do. Mike is NOT PAX. He is not the embodiment of what PAX is about and projecting your distaste of MIKE, which by all means hate the guy if you want, on the decisions and events PAX runs is rather silly.

You seem to want other individuals who are seemingly ignorant of this matter to understand it and stop being ignorant, but so far a event that proposes to create a space to learn/understand/become part of this discussion is being trashed.

 

[reptilescorpio]

Definition of misguided >_<

 

[Mechazawa]

It's funny because when I read this, I couldn't stop thinking about a scenario like /v/ getting butthurt over their perception that Penny Arcade would be catering a specific part of their convention to highlighting "feminazi social issues" or something.

And then I read this thread and people are blowing their fucking lids over the exact opposite reason.

 

[SilentRacoon]

Its a goddamn CONVENTION, every single thing there is "separated" so topics and discussions can actually have a focus.

Except this is not dividing or separating the topics, it's splitting the attendants into two groups for other reasons than trying to cater a variety of topics of interest to the audience attending the event. This is segregation at it's finest, just terrible, but it goes in line with the attitude they have had in the past.

 

[tbm24]

I am all for their equal rights but I can't help but wonder if this is a good idea. The details of its implementation are unclear to me right now.

I don't understand why we need to single them out and have an area for them. I want them to just be other people like me walking around and enjoying PAX.

On the other hand I am all for the awareness agenda but I'm not sure a lounge is the best method.

Because why not have an area dedicated to these issues? At most there have only been panels that run for X amount of time. Once that panel is done, then it's done. PAX is a multi-day event. Having a section that encourages discussion and socialization of a social issue is a good thing. Why many in this thread seem to think PAX is asking anyone who diverse to go hang out under a tent while "normals" go about their day around PAX is being ignorant for the sake of being ignorant.

 

[Solid Samus]

Firstly, it's hilarious the lengths people will go to defend this knowing the history of the organisers

Secondly, calling it a "safe area" sounds closer to "this is a room where you can be a freak" rather than any meaningful way of talking about diversity, based on the first point.

I just have a hard time believing this is a legitimate attempt at trying to bring discussion or any sort of understanding and not an attempt for Mike to be all "LOOK, I'M A MODERN GUY AND I DON'T JUDGE!" before he makes a dick of himself on Twitter again.

And I mean as long as you continue basing your opinion of it on superficial connotations instead of the content of the proposal and what it entails within the context of the expo's structure that will likely remain so. you could be on point though, but consider reading it and checking out a few videos/schedules/floorplan images to get an idea of how PAX is structured.

Sadly we're not in the utopian zone y'all think we're in where you can walk up to any old bonehead and expect positive, constructive, engaging, informed discourse on any particular subject. It'd be great if that was what PAX or anywhere else in the known universe was but there's panels and time and effort allotted to making people aware and informed outside of this area and now there's someplace where people can engage constructively easily over these subjects

 

[Squire]

Via my panel, I have, at most, 50 minutes to talk about trans-related issues, and to hopefully educate people on them. And that's one moment in time when people might be busy with other things, might be at other panels, might not have a badge for that day, etc.

If I can then spend time at a part of the event where people know they can go to specifically learn about that and other LGBT-related topics, isn't that a good thing? This isn't segregation—it's offering up a known and concrete space where people can go to either meet other people like them, or to learn more about people not like them.

Isn't that a good thing?

That a designated space is necessary at all indicates a major error in the general tone and atmosphere of PAX. They should be working to make it so you can comfortably meet people and have these discussions anywhere on the convention floor.

This feels like, "God, fine, give those weirdos a space to call their own. Anything to get then to shut up and leave us privelaged folk alone."

 

[Solid Samus]

Definition of misguided >_<

ikr,

Spoiler

what a thread

 

[Animal]

Because why not have an area dedicated to these issues? At most there have only been panels that run for X amount of time. Once that panel is done, then it's done. PAX is a multi-day event. Having a section that encourages discussion and socialization of a social issue is a good thing. Why many in this thread seem to think PAX is asking anyone who diverse to go hang out under a tent while "normals" go about their day around PAX is being ignorant for the sake of being ignorant.

Naturally the "diverse" will converge there as it is being described as a "safe space". I think the use of "safe space" to describe it is what sets off my alarms. All of PAX should be a safe space. The entire universe should be a safe space.

Information area? Sure. Activities? Sure. Panels? Sure. Contests? Sure. Q&A? Sure. Anything you can think of? Sure. But a "safe space" I think betrays their intentions.

 

[Lucario]

Is this segregation?

If panels with progressive/diverse perspectives on gaming were being moved to one area: yes, it would be.

If LGBT attendees were asked to hide their sexuality/gender identity outside of the designated lounge, yes.

If enforcers with "safe space" training were only removing attendees for bullying if it occurred inside of the diversity lounge, then yes.


None of that is happening.


I'm not the biggest fan of pigs & bald, but this seems like it's well-intentioned and completely harmless. Reading the press release, this isn't even a safe space -- it's a safe information desk. The con will not stop enforcing anti-bullying policies simply because of the diversity lounge.

 

[Mesoian]

That a designated space is necessary at all indicates a major error in the general tone and atmosphere of PAX. They should be working to make it so you can comfortably meet people and have these discussions anywhere on the convention floor.

This feels like, "God, fine, give those weirdos a space to call their own. Anything to get then to shut up and leave us privelaged folk alone."

Or, more rationally, it's a place where people can actively meet up without weeks of preplanning and sifting through LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE to try and find people interested in the conversation.

Jesus people, come on.

 

[Funchameleon]

heads up if you use the word "cis" save yourself some time and stick to the "diversity lounge"

 

[Shingro]

In my experience PAX has been pretty wonderful. The first panel we did, the room was packed, and a number of people came up to us afterward to thank us for what we did. Since then, we haven't quite had the same room-filling crowds—I wish we did—but we've still had people come to our panels either because they're glad we're talking about such issues, or because they want to know more about those issues.

I've heard from a few people who have run into issues, but they're the kinds of things you expect when you've got that many people coming together in one place. No matter what, you're going to have some bad apples. On the most part, PAX seems to be very friendly towards LGBT gamers, and most of the time people seem to be able to walk around without being harassed or singled out or anything like that.

Of course, I can only talk about my own experiences, and what I've heard from others.

Indeed, well thank you for your candor. I think I'm going to file the PA guys under "honestly trying" and PAX as a good place regardless of the strange responses they seem to engender.

 

[Goby]

Good that will mean that crazy PC issues will all be located in one central area and therefore can be safely ignored there.

Then maybe games can actually take place outside instead of overblown social issues.

 

[Rafterman]

Wait, really? That's a lot of panels for a place that's supposed to be some sort of Mount Doom for tolerance.

In your experience has it been an awful convention in terms of tolerance (attendees etc.)or not? I'd value a first hand perspective.

People like to ignore the fact that, in reality, PAX is one of the most inclusive and safe convention environments in the industry. There have been plenty of panels on things like transgender, females characters in gaming, exposing harassment, sexism, etc. that people pretend don't happen or conveniently ignore whenever the annual "it's time to bitch about PA" thread comes around. It's amazing how a few comments have more weight with the haters than all the good that has come out of both these conventions and their charity.

Via my panel, I have, at most, 50 minutes to talk about trans-related issues, and to hopefully educate people on them. And that's one moment in time when people might be busy with other things, might be at other panels, might not have a badge for that day, etc.

If I can then spend time at a part of the event where people know they can go to specifically learn about that and other LGBT-related topics, isn't that a good thing? This isn't segregation—it's offering up a known and concrete space where people can go to either meet other people like them, or to learn more about people not like them.

Isn't that a good thing?


In my experience PAX has been pretty wonderful. The first panel we did, the room was packed, and a number of people came up to us afterward to thank us for what we did. Since then, we haven't quite had the same room-filling crowds—I wish we did—but we've still had people come to our panels either because they're glad we're talking about such issues, or because they want to know more about those issues.

I've heard from a few people who have run into issues, but they're the kinds of things you expect when you've got that many people coming together in one place. No matter what, you're going to have some bad apples. On the most part, PAX seems to be very friendly towards LGBT gamers, and most of the time people seem to be able to walk around without being harassed or singled out or anything like that.

Of course, I can only talk about my own experiences, and what I've heard from others.

People should read this! Of course it's a good thing. This is what PAX is in reality, not the fantasy that people in this thread have made it and PA out to be.

 

[Funchameleon]

Good that will mean that crazy PC issues will all be located in one central area and therefore can be safely ignored there.

This is one of the major issues with the proposal, yes

 

[tbm24]

That a designated space is necessary at all indicates a major error in the general tone and atmosphere of PAX. They should be working to make it so you can comfortably meet people and have these discussions anywhere on the convention floor.

This feels like, "God, fine, give those weirdos a space to call their own. Anything to get then to shut up and leave us privelaged folk alone."

Whose to say people aren't just discussing this all around the convention floor? That's a huge assumption.

It's clear PAX can't win with people. PAX is trying something new/different and attempting to spotlight an issue/communities they feel deserve a dedicated spotlight, get accused of promoting segregation. Rough crowd out there.

 

[Solid Samus]

That a designated space is necessary at all indicates a major error in the general tone and atmosphere of PAX. They should be working to make it so you can comfortably meet people and have these discussions anywhere on the convention floor.

do you skip over posts that address that?

the general tone and atmosphere at PAX itself is improving and as of late has been more divorced from what you'd think given the controversy regarding two men among hundreds of men and women involved.

We don't even know that it'll be a 'separate room' yet but it's not a 'separate room for diversity' regardless. again, again, this shit is brought up all around pax. if anything it's a room pertaining to diversity dialogue and discussion for those interested or vested enough in the topics to explore them further. I mean, seriously, what the fuck do you expect? And don't handwave me some bullshit 'and questions like that are why this shit gets by etc.', give me a straight answer. Even despite PA's bullshit, why is, in addition to dialogue being promoted elsewhere within the expo, there being a resource capable of linking minds and opinions to further articulate interested parties and minds within the industry a 'bad thing'? You think they can wave a magic wand and make every douchebag that might show up into a better person who will instantly know better? Fuck no. PAX isn't some place where there's one big main theater and panels are mandatory attendance. The most the expo planners can do is try to promote a more understanding and informed outlook among as many people as they can (which they've been making attempts at doing, including with aforementioned panels n shit as well as utilizing a volunteer watch force and as of late decreasing their 'this shit will fly' threshold beyond most expos), because general perception doesn't shift overnight. This is a step forward in the regard that both developers and consumer minds capable of influencing other minds over time now have a concerted place in which to have their questions answered and have someone who might be dealing with the same issues or someone who might be looking into the same issues a place to quickly connect.

 

[Cartman86]

Oh I thought it was just an information initiative. They are considering it a safe space thing? I don't think that is wise for PAX. That might work on its own but marking a clear line at this convention in particular with seperatly trained security? Gross.

 

[gogosox8]

I really don't see what people are so upset about. They aren't corralling them into one place and saying "if you wanna talk about this stuff, do it here not on the convention floor where the important topics and news is being discussed." It sounds more like an information hub/center where anyone can stop by a learn about issues that minorities face in the gaming industry. I don't see why there's anything wrong with that.

 

[tbm24]

Naturally the "diverse" will converge there as it is being described as a "safe space". I think the use of "safe space" to describe it is what sets off my alarms. All of PAX should be a safe space. The entire universe should be a safe space.

Information area? Sure. Activities? Sure. Panels? Sure. Contests? Sure. Q&A? Sure. Anything you can think of? Sure. But a "safe space" I think betrays their intentions.

The entire universe should be a safe space. I completely agree with that. That is simply not the case however, and until it is(which won't happen through magic mind you) then it is something to highlight that anyone who otherwise would feel uncomfortable discussing such things or about themselves publicly can feel less societal pressure while there.

 

[Mesoian]

Oh I thought it was just an information initiative. They are considering it a safe space thing? I don't think that is wise for PAX. That might work on its own but marking a clear line at the convention with seperatly trained security? Gross.

...no dude. What? Where are people even getting this?

 

[Solid Samus]

Good that will mean that crazy PC issues will all be located in one central area and therefore can be safely ignored there.

This is one of the major issues with the proposal, yes

no it's not though

i mean god damn does anyone read the thread or even know anything about pax like at all

 

[tbm24]

...no dude. What? Where are people even getting this?

Presumably from what they are sitting on.

 

[Lucario]

The entire universe should be a safe space. I completely agree with that. That is simply not the case however, and until it is(which won't happen through magic mind you) then it is something to highlight that anyone who otherwise would feel uncomfortable discussing such things or about themselves publicly can feel less societal pressure while there.

The entire convention -- at least PAX east -- is a pretty safe space.

If someone shouts a slur at you or implies you don't belong at the convention, talk to an enforcer and they will make sure it doesn't happen again. Absolutely no harassment is tolerated at PAX.

I'm not claiming it doesn't happen (it absolutely does), but enforcers are prepared to eject people for making others feel uncomfortable about gender/race/sexuality.

That's why a lot of people are worried, I think. The implication of a safe space inside the safe space is making everyone jump to conclusions, assuming it'd become okay to shout 'faggot' at people who are beating you in TF2.

Don't get me wrong -- Gabe is a complete shithead.

The people who staff his convention, however, are extremely dedicated and understanding.

 

[Animal]

The entire universe should be a safe space. I completely agree with that. That is simply not the case however, and until it is(which won't happen through magic mind you) then it is something to highlight that anyone who otherwise would feel uncomfortable discussing such things or about themselves publicly can feel less societal pressure while there.

All for it. But if PAX was really serious about it, it would be enforced on the entire PAX event and printed on the tickets, magazines and posters.

 

[Squire]

Whose to say people aren't just discussing this all around the convention floor? That's a huge assumption.

It's clear PAX can't win with people. PAX is trying something new/different and attempting to spotlight an issue/communities they feel deserve a dedicated spotlight, get accused of promoting segregation. Rough crowd out there.

Oh, yeah. Rough.

Real rough.

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

I don't think this is actually entirely for 'diverse' people... I think a bit of it is for blatantly uneducated people like Mike.

Let's say I'm a semi-clueless GAF junior (Hey, that was easy). I've read a few threads, seen the term 'cis' thrown around, but I'm unclear with what, precisely, it means, and how it relates to the trans community that uses it. I'm also not clear on what designates a Trans person, and I heard this term 'genderqueer' the other day that melts my brain a bit.

(I know how to use google. I've educated myself on all these. But once upon a time, I felt these confusions)

Who better to talk to about it then the people stumping for education and awareness? I would know exactly where to go to see if anyone would open my mind a bit.

 

[FargoDog]

Um, it's nothing like that. It's completely optional and meant to be a way you can meet other people that you can identify on a certain level with.

Jim Crow laws were NOT optional and certainly not meant to promote strength among minorities.

So you can only identify with your own race, gender and sexuality?

Jesus Christ.

 

[blamite]

Also (and this is maybe a little off-topic) is it really fair to call Mike transphobic? I'm asking this genuinely, as I'm not sure how that whole incident ended up, but from what I could gather at the time he just came off as someone who didn't really understand a thing and as he was having the thing explained to him and finding out more about it he was just reacting to it in a way that wasn't ideal but also wasn't totally against it and was part of a process of hopefully coming to a better understanding of it.

I could be totally wrong I guess and I might have missed some tweets or whatever that would have colored my opinion differently but I don't think he really came off as a bad person? I don't know.

 

[Funchameleon]

no it's not though

*nods sagely* excellent point. It's absolutely fine that this initiative empowers the folks that scream "TUMBLR SJW UGH" in response to any gender/minority issues in gaming to take a wide birth of it *leans back in chair* yes maybe there can be warning signs and caution tape on the floor

 

[Grakl]

This proposal seems like it exists to educate people about minorities. That's fine with me.

 

[watershed]

Just reading the OP, this seems like nothing short of segregation.

 

[Solid Samus]

All for it. But if PAX was really serious about it, it would be enforced on the entire PAX event and printed on the tickets, magazines and posters.

it is enforced on the entire event and guests are made aware of the rules and guidelines. as well as the floorplan and the panel schedule which would both include go ahead guess

 

[tbm24]

Oh, yeah. Rough.

Real rough.

I don't see how that somehow makes the comments in this very thread disappear.

 

[-COOLIO-]

the first page of replies is disappointing, yet expected.

 

[Dio]

I don't think this is actually entirely for 'diverse' people... I think a bit of it is for blatantly uneducated people like Mike.

Yeah, education is a big thing. There's quite a bit of people who see 'I'm a nu-trans fourth trimester transsensual Angst Profile ZETA-8 genderqueer pseudo-dyke reformed lesbiophilic heteromollusc' whenever anything like this is brought up and it'd be cool to clear people's confusion.

 

[Mesoian]

*nods sagely* excellent point. It's absolutely fine that this initiative empowers the folks that scream "TUMBLR SJW UGH" in response to any gender/minority issues in gaming can take a wide birth of it *leans back in chair* yes maybe there can be warning signs and caution tape on the floor

And this is, and always will be, the general tone of this thread and any thread that even mentions Penny Arcade, whether it's 2 Billion dollars given to charity or Mike hitting a cat in the street with his car.

I'm out of here, there's no actual discussion to be had.

 

[Cartman86]

...no dude. What? Where are people even getting this?

They have their own information on diverse spaces and talks within and without the expo hall for the duration of the convention, their own security teams specially trained in “Safe Zone Training” (whatever that is), and generally appear to be an area where people of diverse backgrounds can chill out while non-diverse attendees can go to learn about people who aren’t like them in a tolerant space.

?

 

[tbm24]

All for it. But if PAX was really serious about it, it would be enforced on the entire PAX event and printed on the tickets, magazines and posters.

I'd find it hard to believe it wouldn't/isn't enforced all around the show floor.

 

[Goby]

This is one of the major issues with the proposal, yes

What's wrong with keeping that stuff in one place?

 

[El_Mau]

The entire universe should be a safe space. I completely agree with that. That is simply not the case however, and until it is(which won't happen through magic mind you) then it is something to highlight that anyone who otherwise would feel uncomfortable discussing such things or about themselves publicly can feel less societal pressure while there.

But using the term "safe place" gives you the wrong idea that the rest of PAX is not safe, people would assume that PAX is not a welcoming place for the LGBT community.

 

[Animal]

it is enforced on the entire event and guests are made aware of the rules and guidelines. as well as the floorplan and the panel schedule which would both include go ahead guess

I'd find it hard to believe it wouldn't/isn't enforced all around the show floor.

So that's great. Attendees are aware and informed. Tolerance is enforced. So I guess the issue I have is with their wording: "safe space".

 

[Solid Samus]

*nods sagely* excellent point. It's absolutely fine that this initiative empowers the folks that scream "TUMBLR SJW UGH" in response to any gender/minority issues in gaming can take a wide birth of it *leans back in chair* yes maybe there can be warning signs and caution tape on the floor

don't mistake my weariness for addressing the exact same thing over and over to a bunch of broken record ass thread drifters up in here (including the implications in your post right here), for thinking that this 'segregation' is even a thing given even a cursory understanding of how expos work, what this is in the context of that, and how much other content and discussion on the subject is available all over the place at PAX.

just read the thread man. and if you still want to think that that's what this is then I'm entitled to ignore your posts moving forward