Support NeoGAF

[Dead Man]

He had views others did not like and did things others did not like but asserts himself despite them. Why should he apologize and what good does it do affect everyone at PAX overall?

That presumes that the company doesn't care about offending people, which it seems to do based on the response talked about in this thread. And if you were one of the offended ones, why would you give him any credit until he apologises? Why would you support his company while he maintains those beliefs and statements?

Nobody is saying he has to do anything, but if he wants people to not think he is a fuckwit, an apology, a sincere one, is what it will take.

Plenty of people argued previously that those offended should just not support the convention, and he should do what he wants. That would be fine, except apparently other people at the company want to attract that group of people. If you can't see how that works you are missing a very simple point.

He doesn't HAVE to do anything about it. If PAX/PA want it fixed, that is the way to do it.

 

[aspiegamer]

This is not a place to stick all the "weirdos" in, and they aren't even selling it like that.

Not trying to say they're using it as some deliberate way to filter or single out people. I'm not that that cynical about the matter. I'm assuming good faith on their part here in that the goal is for there to be no fuss or controversy but this is a rocky start for that effort.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I don't think it's really accurate to categorize this effort as creating a separation that didn't previously exist. There are kind of two basic justifications for the concept of safe spaces which I think are applicable here:

1. It creates a place where members of minority groups are not passively differentiated ("othered" if you want be academic about it) on the basis of their minority status. Any general admission convention such as PAX which attracts even a vaguely representative sample of the population will create an environment which reflects the broader majority-minority dynamics of the culture at large. It creates a situation where marked traits (that Wikipedia article is needlessly dense I mean damn) of minority individuals are readily observable even in the absence of overt prejudice, which can be discomfiting. A safe space, conceptually, does not necessarily reflect the demographics of the convention (and, by extension, society) at large, and so those marked traits are less readily apparent. It gives a reprieve from passive, omnipresent reminders of minority status.

To simplify that simplification down even further: safe spaces give minority peeps a place to chillax where they're not constantly reminded of their minority status through passive exposure to the raw reality of demographics.

2. It serves a pragmatic purpose in terms of giving minority individuals a clearly-defined avenue for redress. In general (and the leaked document concerning the PAX area addresses this) safe spaces are intended to have representatives of the organization responsible for the event who are specifically trained for dealing with issues of concern to minorities. If someone is harassed or discriminated against because of their minority status they have a specifically apportioned area with specifically trained staff to provide them assistance. There's no confusion about where to seek aid in the event of discriminatory behavior on the part of other convention-goers or even of convention staff, and clearly defined channels for reporting ill-treatment on the basis of innate traits and the advertisement of the existence of these channels creates an environment that is (hopefully) less conducive to abusive behavior in the first place.

To simplify that point down even further: safe spaces give a readily apparent way of reporting people for being dicks. They also serve as a warning to people inclined towards being dicks that they probably oughtta just cut that out already.

It's a remarkably conciliatory move.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not adverse (or unfamiliar) with the idea of safe spaces and what they're good for. I'm mostly just a little concerned as to how it'll work in the context of PAX as a gaming show, as I hope it doesn't sideline queer developers who previously had prime hall space, or inadvertently isolate and "other" them in a space a bunch of people will either avoid or just not know about at all.

 

[Fantastical]

Not trying to say they're using it as some deliberate way to filter or single out people. I'm not that that cynical about the matter.

Ah, sorry. Shouldn't be reading Twitter while responding to an individual post.

 

[casabolg]

This is the part that I'm a little hung up on. I applaud what PA is trying to do here, but considering that PAX has always at least had a pretty decent spread of LGBTQ panels and exhibitors, it does feel like it's creating a separation that never existed before. Any attempt to educate is admirable, but I think the focus should probably be on assuring attendees that the entire convention is a "safe zone" for them (which, as some people have pointed out, they've at least been trying until now).

No doubt there are a lot of newly arising contentious views out there that are being debated and we don't want to have a situation where the welcoming of these ideas must be the norm but can be freely debated between all sides. To do that, what views must be tolerated and what cannot need to be taken to specific areas.

I'd say LGBTQ-friendly area is not a very good description of it, as you said it's very commonly friendly anyway, but rather to specific views in the LGBTQ community and many other minority communities out there. The best way I can describe it, sadly, is "the Tumblr crowd".

 

[ixix]

Yeah, like I said, I'm not adverse (or unfamiliar) with the idea of safe spaces and what they're good for. I'm mostly just a little concerned as to how it'll work in the context of PAX as a gaming show, as I hope it doesn't sideline queer developers who previously had prime hall space, or inadvertently isolate and "other" them in a space a bunch of people will either avoid or just not know about at all.

Well, based on the leaked memo it doesn't sound like there's much threat of that. It doesn't sound like it's intended to be an exhibition area so much as a social and educational one, which is pretty much Safe Space Implementation for Dummies. I really got the impression from reading the leak that they're aiming for about the most by-the-books unobjectionable implementation of the idea of a safe space for minorities imaginable.

In that context, the vitriolic response to it is disappointing. The memo reads like a (vaguely self-congratulatory, admittedly) mea culpa.

 

[casabolg]

That presumes that the company doesn't care about offending people, which it seems to do based on the response talked about in this thread. And if you were one of the offended ones, why would you give him any credit until he apologises? Why would you support his company while he maintains those beliefs and statements?

Nobody is saying he has to do anything, but if he wants people to not think he is a fuckwit, an apology, a sincere one, is what it will take.

Plenty of people argued previously that those offended should just not support the convention, and he should do what he wants. That would be fine, except apparently other people at the company want to attract that group of people. If you can't see how that works you are missing a very simple point.

He doesn't HAVE to do anything about it. If PAX/PA want it fixed, that is the way to do it.

So your point is he should apologize for his views to avoid semi-organized boycott because of offended parties, while also to mend his relationship with said parties. Fair enough. This lounge idea shows he is at least tolerant of others views, which is a plus, but it's always fair to think he may be just trying to get some points back in a cheap way. Carry on.

 

[JDSN]

Is Gabe so adamant too apologize for his constant, callously and purposely ignorant comments that this is the best thing they can come with?
Every talk, event and action to increase inclusiveness on PA's behalf is tainted by the fact that its co-creator is a bigot that compares transvestites to dolphin and has apologize basically for getting caught doing so.

 

[0xCA2]

Well, based on the leaked memo it doesn't sound like there's much threat of that. It doesn't sound like it's intended to be an exhibition area so much as a social and educational one, which is pretty much Safe Space Implementation for Dummies. I really got the impression from reading the leak that they're aiming for about the most by-the-books unobjectionable implementation of the idea of a safe space for minorities imaginable.

In that context, the vitriolic response to it is disappointing. The memo reads like a (vaguely self-congratulatory, admittedly) mea culpa.

I really hope that they don't shut it down and/or Mike doesn't go on a rant about how "We tried but you just can't win" because of this.

 

[Mzo]

It's a good move. I'm glad they're trying something and that enough people are understanding about it.

Some people just really want to hate on PA. Why argue with them? Let them do it. PAX East sold out faster this "boycott" year than any other year.

 

[Metrotab]

I thought safe spaces were a good thing. Every social justice article I've ever read talks positively about the concept. A place where people can get educated, learn about issues, conversate in a comfortable way.

Now PAX is actually hosting these safe spaces, and naming them explicitly so, and people don't like it? People bring up Nazism and Jim Crow? How is that, by any means, a reasonable comparison?

You just can't win with these people. You just can't. Everything you do, or think, or say, is oppressive, and evidence of your true bigoted spirit underneath.

 

[casabolg]

From my perspective, this is PR, and while a lot of it could be fixed, it will still be dishonest coming from them.

I have no doubt it is PR but I don't think the word "dishonest" is truthful. He has asserted before that his group gets all kinds here and he welcomes discussion from all kinds. I'd wager this is a "I may not agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it" after people have begun to use his views to judge convention as a whole so to garner a better image of the convention rather than trying to improve his self-image.

 

[Lime]

How about, I don't know, making the entire conference a safe space? Wouldn't that be neat?

Seriously, it's like the folks at Penny Arcade never talk with anyone different from themselves.

 

[casabolg]

How about, I don't know, making the entire conference a safe space? Wouldn't that be neat?

Why limit open discussion?

 

[NeoGash]

But he said he belongs to any of this groups, that surely mean his opinion must come from a place of knowlege and inclusiveness....even to he wants the conversation about this to stop...or that he sounds like a caricature.

No it just means if I offended anyone, it was an accident. I thought 'colours' includes everybody and was the easiest way to describe it.

 

[Nozem]

But he said he belongs to any of this groups, that surely mean his opinion must come from a place of knowlege and inclusiveness....even to he wants the conversation about this to stop...or that he sounds like a caricature.

Instead of being a douchebag, why don't you actually educate him/her? You're not helping at all. He/she even says this:

Help me please, I don't think I have done anything wrong yet here I am being targeted.....

 

[Nekofrog]

I'm seeing a complete, good intentioned action here by the part of PA that is marred by their own ignorance and inability to actually grasp the situation and why it's wrong.

 

[Metrotab]

How about, I don't know, making the entire conference a safe space? Wouldn't that be neat?

Seriously, it's like the folks at Penny Arcade never talk with anyone different from themselves.

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a safe space? It's not like they tolerate bigotry and harassment in PAX.

 

[Dead Man]

So your point is he should apologize for his views to avoid semi-organized boycott because of offended parties, while also to mend his relationship with said parties. Fair enough. This lounge idea shows he is at least tolerant of others views, which is a plus, but it's always fair to think he may be just trying to get some points back in a cheap way. Carry on.

Sort of. My point was that if PA et al want to gain some good will, that is what it will take. He can go out and say some more ignorant shit if he wants, I don't give a fuck, I've already written him off as somebody to pay any mind to, and he doesn't give a fuck either. But the people running PAX clearly do.

 

[JDSN]

I have no doubt it is PR but I don't think the word "dishonest" is truthful. He has asserted before that his group gets all kinds here and he welcomes discussion from all kinds. I'd wager this is a "I may not agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it" after people have begun to use his views to judge convention as a whole so to garner a better image of the convention rather than trying to improve his self-image.

The "I might not agree with you but I respect it" is not a demonstration of tolerance when the issue at hand is people being told that their genre is somehow the product of an illness, you are effectively starting your conversation by saying that you think the other party you are about to engage is inferior. He isn't an intern at PA, he is the co-creator of it and its impossible to divorce his relatively recent comments from the other bits of the company. Id sure as hell put under scrutiny and see with doubtful eyes anything positive the GOP says about immigrants.

No it just means if I offended anyone, it was an accident. I thought 'colours' includes everybody and was the easiest way to describe it. People like you that look for an argument are pathetic.

Sorry man, I removed that part of my post, Nozen is right, im being a douche.

 

[casabolg]

The "I might not agree with you but I respect it" is not a demonstration of tolerance when the issue at hand is people being told that their genre is somehow the product of an illness, you are effectively starting your conversation by saying that you think the other party you are about to engage is inferior.

I don't understand you here. Could you elaborate further?

He isn't an intern at PA, he is the co-creator of it and its impossible to divorce his relatively recent comments from the other bits of the company. Id sure as hell put under scrutiny and see with doubtful eyes anything positive the GOP says about immigrants.

Apart from Dickwolves, his statements are purely personal and in no way reflect the direction and terms of the company.

 

[ixix]

How about, I don't know, making the entire conference a safe space? Wouldn't that be neat?

Seriously, it's like the folks at Penny Arcade never talk with anyone different from themselves.

Well a big part of the idea behind safe spaces is that they provide a useful function even in inclusive venues. The basic principle is that majority culture can be exclusionary even without overt hostility towards minorities simply through weight of numbers and the inherent otherness that that foments. A delineated safe space provides (at least in theory) some measure of relief from that. A safe space, as originally defined, pretty much can't exist in a way that encompasses the entirety of a venue which contains a representative cross-section of the population at large, because the demographic make-up of that group is inherently othering.

By way of example, even at explicitly feminist conventions it's not unheard-of to have designated safe spaces for racial, sexual, or gender minorities, and by the standards of general society there'd be few venues more conducive to being broad-based safe spaces than overt feminist gatherings. In American feminist discourse, specifically, ideas of safe spaces came partially to prominence as a direct result of the difficulties that the American feminist movement as a whole has had over the years in dealing with issues of race.

 

[Diprosalic]

Including doing exactly what LGBT would do on their own, make safe spaces intended to educate and facilitate discussion. Fuck those PA guys, doing exactly what we want!



We've repeated this stuff over and over again and the people arguing against have conveniently ignored that fact. it's talking in circles at this point, people had their minds made up when they saw the thread title and no amount of information or educating will get them to think differently. They'll see your post and instead of reading the reality of your words their eyes will gloss over and they'll be right back to arguing the same, factually inaccurate, talking points.

Have fun, I'm out. Talking to brick walls is never fun.

I agree with everything and while PA actively try to understand and correct their behaviour they get shit at every opportunity and Gabe gets called "fucking bigot". Why not try and make them understand?

 

[airmangataosenai]

I feel like a lot of the anti-PA people lost the moral high ground in this argument that posted in this thread. Making casual comparisons to Jim Crow and the Holocaust shows an unbelievable ignorance of both history and general discourse, and frankly is far more reprehensible than anything Mike ever said.

 

[NeoGash]

The "I might not agree with you but I respect it" is not a demonstration of tolerance when the issue at hand is people being told that their genre is somehow the product of an illness, you are effectively starting your conversation by saying that you think the other party you are about to engage is inferior. He isn't an intern at PA, he is the co-creator of it and its impossible to divorce his relatively recent comments from the other bits of the company. Id sure as hell put under scrutiny and see with doubtful eyes anything positive the GOP says about immigrants.


Sorry man, I removed that part of my post, Nozen is right, im being a douche.

I edited mine too. Look, I think we can all agree these issues need to be addressed. I was not wholly against using PAX as an avenue to discuss the issue at hand, I was just looking at it from a cautionary perspective. If PAX demonstrate that they can handle this in the most respectful way possible, then I'll be 100% on board. I originally asked for other people's opinions to see how they differed from my perspective, but I was met with ways to discredit myself as a person, not my opinion, which hurts when I want this shit to be sorted out.

Hell, if this means more of a chance to see black, gay, female etc. protagonists in games, then I'm 120% on board. I hope developers can take note of people's opinions at PAX and hopefully cater to a large audience that never gets much of a say or voice. I'm not against playing as white, male and straight characters, but for so long people in a minority would like to play as someone they can look up to and identify with. I'm not expecting every game to 'pander' to minorities, but a bit of diversity never hurts. It's something you can't really explain easily, but people who are discriminated against frequently (every day in some cases) know that longing to be represented in a sense, in a positive light, not some stereotype that perpetuates discrimination.

It is a touchy subject, and you can't agree with everyone. I have done more reading on this PAX lounge, and I think I support it. My initial defensivesness came from the heart and not wanting people to get hurt. Sometimes innocent labels can still be used as labels, which is ammunition for the ignorant few who like to hurt others for no reason other than to make themselves feel better.

As I said in my first comment though, I'll wait and see. Watching this with (cautionary) excitement.

 

[The Librarian]

I understand their intent, but I'm not sure this is the best way to go about it. I think I'd much rather have each booth have an optional inclusivity part.

 

[Nephtis]

I feel like a lot of the anti-PA people lost the moral high ground in this argument that posted in this thread. Making casual comparisons to Jim Crow and the Holocaust shows an unbelievable ignorance of both history and general discourse, and frankly is far more reprehensible than anything Mike ever said.

Couldn't agree more with you.

 

[Funchameleon]

I feel like a lot of the anti-PA people lost the moral high ground in this argument that posted in this thread. Making casual comparisons to Jim Crow and the Holocaust shows an unbelievable ignorance of both history and general discourse, and frankly is far more reprehensible than anything Mike ever said.

Team Dickwolves secures another victory

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I feel like a lot of the anti-PA people lost the moral high ground in this argument that posted in this thread. Making casual comparisons to Jim Crow and the Holocaust shows an unbelievable ignorance of both history and general discourse, and frankly is far more reprehensible than anything Mike ever said.

A vocal segment certainly prefers to use these circumstances to flaunt their own perceived moral superiority instead of actually doing anything to move discourse or understanding forward. Classic example of "you're not helping." They have no intention of helping.

Team Dickwolves secures another victory

Case in point, but considering that it's coming from someone with a penchant for putting words in the mouth of other Gaffers with regard to their opinions on issues as serious as rape, it's also not the least bit surprising.

 

[Devolution]

I feel like the convention itself should strive to be the safe space but the conversation is well and truly FUBAR'd since people cannot be more civil about this.

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

Team Dickwolves secures another victory

It's clear you're more interested in chaos than improving the situation for either party - However, you want things to improve for the oppressed at all, you should take a step back on this one.

 

[Funchameleon]

A vocal segment certainly prefers to use these circumstances to flaunt their own perceived moral superiority instead of actually doing anything to move discourse or understanding forward. Classic example of "you're not helping." They have no intention of helping.


Case in point, but considering that it's coming from someone with a penchant for putting words in the mouth of other Gaffers with regard to their opinions on issues as serious as rape, it's also not the least bit surprising.

Woah someone's got an axe to grind. Let's just ignore the fact that the person I was talking about in your linked post isn't even a Gaffer, or that I was just now replying to a person trying to discredit the dissenting party over some tasteless and ugly holocaust comparisons/jokes

 

[Rafterman]

It's clear you're more interested in chaos than improving the situation for either party - However, you want things to improve for the oppressed at all, you should take a step back on this one.

He's become a fucking joke, and by extension anything that he posts comes off as parody. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. Taking a step back would help, removing his head from his ass would probably do more.

 

[Funchameleon]

He's become a fucking joke, and by extension anything that he posts comes off as parody. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. Taking a step back would help, removing his head from his ass would probably do more.

Ahaha you're lovely. Got any posts even I barely remember to dredge up?

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

Ahaha you're lovely. Got any posts even I barely remember to dredge up?

If you barely remember things like accusing a large group of people you've never met of being rape apologists, than your day-to-day must be a sight to behold.

 

[drgambit]

Where are they going to find the space for this at PAXprime?

 

[Funchameleon]

If you barely remember things like accusing a large group of people you've never met of being rape apologists, than your day-to-day must be a sight to behold.

Now see this I definitely don't remember. Would you mind linking to the post?

vvv Oh okay so the post where I suggested that the Penny-Arcade Report guy refusing to condemn a game whose sole premise is raping infantilized women is pretty poor form? Who's putting words in whose mouth now?

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

Now see this I definitely don't remember. Would you mind linking to the post?

No need. It's already been linked.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Now see this I definitely don't remember. Would you mind linking to the post?

vvv Oh okay so the post where I suggested that the Penny-Arcade Report guy refusing to condemn a game whose sole premise is raping infantilized women is pretty poor form? Who's putting words in whose mouth now?

There was like an entire page of back and forth with you calling out a journalist for his decision of electing not to comment on a controversial subject he had not informed himself on, equating that to condoning rape culture, and backhandedly associating it with a number of posters who thought his decision was one of his few mature actions on display.

I don't think that makes for conductive discussion.

(I also don't think this GAF meta argument is helping, but I guess I've got no one but myself to blame there.)

 

[Devolution]

Can we discuss the actual issue and sans vitriol and hyperbole from all sides?

 

[Dachande]

I'm not sure if this is going to be a good or bad thing. I'm leaning towards bad, but maybe in practice it'll be fine. Certainly don't like the "separate but equal human zoo" type aspect of it though, but perhaps at the actual show it won't feel like that. Perhaps it's a step in the right direction.

The thing I don't like about this is that it's putting the efforts to educate attendees about LGBTQ issues in a separate area. I don't want these efforts to be sequestered away, I want them to be everywhere, mixed in with everything, to be unavoidable.

If these educational opportunities are separate, only people actively interested will go to them. People who aren't will simply ignore it entirely and not expose themselves to it, and I don't like that. I feel people should have their noses rubbed into it that This Is A Thing and We Should Be Okay With It.

 

[sleepykyo]

Unless I'm missing something in the memo, it isn't mandatory for the groups to be in that zone. So it isn't segregation. And more along the lines of an optional center of gravitation, right?

That isn't a bad thing in theory, though it might go wrong in practice, depending on the execution and luck.

 

[remnant]

This thread is embarrassing.

Has the words "Jim Crow" and "Holocaust" lost all meaning to some people?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Can we discuss the actual issue and sans vitriol and hyperbole from all sides?

I think it's a well-intentioned gesture, and even though I really have no love for Gabe's ever present thick-headedness, I think actions and results are more important than words. Don't really have much to say otherwise until we know what's actually going down at the event.

Being a straight white 20-something male, it's rare that I ever feel like I'm defined or "othered" in a gaming environment, considering the typical crowd. And in events where that is the case (being the only white guy at a fighting tournament), I kind of silently relish in the rare opportunity to be the token minority for a change. But I'm at least conscious of my limited perspective, there are a lot of good posts in this thread explaining the value of something like a "safe space" to people like me, and I do enjoy reading the input from those that this outreach is intended for, so I can't say this discussion hasn't had merit.

 

[daycru]

The main problem, is the people who need to learn about diversity the most, aren't going to visit this "diversity lounge", hell they can simply actively avoid it. Those ignorant people need that shit force-fed to them.

PAX is a video game convention, not your parents.

 

[Dachande]

PAX is a video game convention, not your parents.

If their parents aren't good enough to educate them, someone has to.

 

[remnant]

Unreal. No. No one has educate them.

I honestly wonder why Mike and company try. They can't win

 

[Nozem]

If PA would cure cancer the GAF thread would still be full of bitching.

 

[Nephtis]

The thing I don't like about this is that it's putting the efforts to educate attendees about LGBTQ issues in a separate area. I don't want these efforts to be sequestered away, I want them to be everywhere, mixed in with everything, to be unavoidable..

What you're asking for is to have the entire convention be about LGBTQ (what's the Q for anyway? I am not up to date on the lingo. Is it queer?). You're forgetting that this is a gaming convention, not a LGBTQ convention.

There's nothing that is sequestered away -- it's simply another area in an already huge event that is full of other categories. One in which you can be educated about the issues in the LGBTQ community, an area where you can maybe meet people from the community.

I know a lot of people don't know anyone that is Transgender, for example. It's hard to relate to their plight when you don't know them, and you don't know the issues they have in the gaming community. It's a place where a person can gain insight, a perspective, of what's going on around them.

I honestly can't see where this might be wrong, this should definitely be applauded.

 

[fwpx]

Somebody needs to fire the lunatics in charge of business decisions at PA. You couldn't miss the point more if you tried.