PAX To Increase Inclusivity Effort With “Roll For Diversity – Hub And Lounge”

What you're asking for is to have the entire convention be about LGBTQ

No I'm not. I'm asking for these issues to be able to be discussed in the context of videogames in areas with the games themselves that deal with them, instead of having an exclusive area where LGBTQ issues can be discussed, which is what this is sounding like.

This sounds like they're trying to push things in the right direction, but considering PA's track record with this kind of thing, I can't blame anyone for being sceptical about it and jumping to the worst conclusions.
 
The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is god damn amazing

Reading those leaked PAX documents doesn't it seem pretty clear that the purpose of the area is to show people how various cultures and companies have worked to promote diversity in the gaming community, anyone can visit these any of these tables.

How the fuck did segregation even come up,
 
The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is god damn amazing

Reading those leaked PAX documents doesn't it seem pretty clear that the purpose of the area is to show people how various cultures and companies have worked to promote diversity in the gaming community, anyone can visit these any of these tables.

How the fuck did segregation even come up,

They read some tweets from people that like to generate controversy. They probably also read Kotaku, which has a hardon for PA hatred apparently.

At least that's what it seems like so far. I don't even know, it's just ridiculous.
 
Nobody is ever happy, it feels like the only way to satisfy the mob is to hang the guys from PA.

Yeah because I haven't said that Mike actually making an adult apology for being a transphobe would actually be the best place to start rather than this tone-deaf and suspect 'diversity zone' stuff. But please, go on sympathizing with the rich, white hetero nerd who buys a Mercedes with PAX badge fees.
 
Heh reminds me of the Black people only schools in Ontario

Oh NO we're not segregating at all. We feel they would be more comfortable around people of their own colour.
 
The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is god damn amazing

Reading those leaked PAX documents doesn't it seem pretty clear that the purpose of the area is to show people how various cultures and companies have worked to promote diversity in the gaming community, anyone can visit these any of these tables.

How the fuck did segregation even come up,

My problem with it is, it shouldn't be a "section" that people can actively avoid. Spread it throughout the convention.
 
Jesus, I'm starting to wish that Penny Arcade was banned so you people didn't have a venue for your unrelenting and unreasonable hatred.

I love unreasonable hatred as much as the next guy, but this thread is bonkers.
 
No I'm not. I'm asking for these issues to be able to be discussed in the context of videogames in areas with the games themselves that deal with them, instead of having an exclusive area where LGBTQ issues can be discussed, which is what this is sounding like.

This sounds like they're trying to push things in the right direction, but considering PA's track record with this kind of thing, I can't blame anyone for being sceptical about it and jumping to the worst conclusions.

I don't think it sounds like an exclusive area at all, though. There have been panels devoted to issues of representation within video games and within the video game industry at prior PAX events and there's no indication whatsoever that those will no longer be afforded a platform or will be sequestered in some dank warren. The only change, based on what we're seeing, is that PAX will be including an area dedicated specifically for members of minority groups to socialize and perform outreach.

It bears repeating that what they're doing is very clearly modeled on the feminist-originated concept of safe spaces, a concept which was adopted by LGBT advocacy organizations. Penny Arcade is not only addressing the criticisms they've been faced with in this arena, they are actually doing so by directly adopting the recommended practices of their detractors. This is a huge concession that they're considering making to their most vocal critics, and they're being pilloried for it.

I don't think that skepticism covers it at this point. A whole lot of folks are spectacularly dropping the ball when it comes to responding productively to this, and they're doing so in a very public manner. We're at a point where people are casually mocking the feminist idea of safe spaces or, worse, conflating it with institutionalized racism and the Third Reich, and they are doing so from ostensibly progressive positions.

That's bad. That's real bad.
 
Yeah because I haven't said that Mike actually making an adult apology for being a transphobe would actually be the best place to start rather than this tone-deaf and suspect 'diversity zone' stuff. But please, go on sympathizing with the rich, white hetero nerd who buys a Mercedes with your badge fees.

Well, it seems like not everybody agrees with you.

I got nothing against rich, hetero, white, nerds nor Mercedes owners and I never gave money to PA.

Its also ironic that you seem to be intolerant of people you claim have a phobia.
 
This thread, collectively, is one of the poorest displays of reading comprehension I've seen on GAF. I know the headline seems like bad messaging given PA's history, but I'd still expect people to take a little time to learn about what they're criticizing before immediately going into dismissive snark mode.

It especially stings on Twitter coming from people who I generally respect, like Steve Gaynor and Jim Sterling.
 
My problem with it is, it shouldn't be a "section" that people can actively avoid. Spread it throughout the convention.

If people want to actively avoid you can't do much to stop it, even if you scattered a bunch of these around the convention, which would require an inordinate amount of manpower, short of forcing attendees to spend time in one of these booths they'll still be able to avoid it.

And if they did 'spread' just the one you would just get a number of small booths spread around a very large area, which just makes it a nuisance for people actually interested in the message.
 
I don't think that skepticism covers it at this point. A whole lot of folks are spectacularly dropping the ball when it comes to responding productively to this, and they're doing so in a very public manner. We're at a point where people are casually mocking the feminist idea of safe spaces or, worse, conflating it with institutionalized racism and the Third Reich, and they are doing so from ostensibly progressive positions.

That's bad. That's real bad.

I haven't done so from any of those points. I come from a place where my life was compared to magical foxes and dolphins by unrepentant transphobe Mike. To act like I have to support an organization or its tone-deaf 'diversity land' (that is just a few yards short of missing the point) just because is actually ridiculous.
 
The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is god damn amazing

Reading those leaked PAX documents doesn't it seem pretty clear that the purpose of the area is to show people how various cultures and companies have worked to promote diversity in the gaming community, anyone can visit these any of these tables.

How the fuck did segregation even come up,

Maybe stop accusing people of not reading. It's genuine reactions to the document. Obviously it was leaked to get those reactions because they were not sure what to do with the idea.

People are reading it correctly. It makes a space for 'diversity' where anybody can go. Its marginalisation, not a separate space.

And boo-hoo to the defenders. PA very routinely get this stuff wrong. Routinely! How many chances do they get? Maybe they're just conservative on this stuff and maybe that's okay. But it will mean PAX isn't for everybody.
 
Its also ironic that you seem to be intolerant of people you claim have a phobia.

Yes because I'm supposed to meet someone who willingly mocked and minimized my life experiences and the life experience of others with hand-holding and endless patience.
 
If people want to actively avoid you can't do much to stop it, even if you scattered a bunch of these around the convention, which would require an inordinate amount of manpower, short of forcing attendees to spend time in one of these booths they'll still be able to avoid it.

And if they did 'spread' just the one you would just get a number of small booths spread around a very large area, which just makes it a nuisance for people actually interested in the message.

People are allowed to enjoy or not enjoy whatever they want. But dedicating an "area" to handle this is stupid. If you want to act like you give a damn about LGBTQ issues, seamlessly integrate it in your convention. The logistics will work themselves out. Don't make it easy for straight white male 18-30 to avoid it. PAX goers are passionate folks. They should be leading the charge to make the "gamers are assholes" trope disappear, don't you think?

Just my opinion, though.
 
I'm not familiar with these things. Is this really an unsafe environment for people who aren't white males? Please explain it to me without insinuating that I'm racist for not understanding. It just seems like the world has gone crazy lately. Why is race, sexual preference, or gender even something that is considered? It doesn't matter. Am I off base?
 
And boo-hoo to the defenders. PA very routinely get this stuff wrong. Routinely! How many chances do they get? Maybe they're just conservative on this stuff and maybe that's okay. But it will mean PAX isn't for everybody.

It definitely isn't for everybody. But here's an actual safe place/convention ANYONE can go that doesn't have organizers with heads half-planted up their own ass: http://gaymerconnect.com/
 
I'm not familiar with these things. Is this really an unsafe environment for people who aren't white males? Please explain it to me without insinuating that I'm racist for not understanding. It just seems like the world has gone crazy lately. Why is race, sexual preference, or gender even something that is considered? It doesn't matter. Am I off base?

Believe me, I think we all wish it was something that wasn't considered. I'll let someone with experience answer your question, though.
 
Penny Arcade is asked to make their convention a safe space.

Instead makes the only marked safe space somewhere off in the corner. Probably up in the 6th Floor, PAX's Kentia, where nobody can see it, next to the indie booths, so nobody has to think about it.

They will continue to never fucking get it.
 
People are allowed to enjoy or not enjoy whatever they want. But dedicating an "area" to handle this is stupid. If you want to act like you give a damn about LGBTQ issues, seamlessly integrate it in your convention. The logistics will work themselves out. Don't make it easy for straight white male 18-30 to avoid it. PAX goers are passionate folks. They should be leading the charge to make the "gamers are assholes" trope disappear, don't you think?

Just my opinion, though.

You're speaking completely in ideals without putting any thought into implementation.

If you want to act like you give a damn about LGBTQ issues, seamlessly integrate it in your convention.
How would you propose to do this?

The logistics will work themselves out.
I'm not quite sure you understand how much manpower, forward planning and coordination it takes to organise one of these expos. Any aspect of it does not simply 'work itself out'.

Also having this area doesn't mean the rest of the expo is not going to give a shit about diversity.

People are reading it correctly. It makes a space for 'diversity' where anybody can go. Its marginalisation, not a separate space.
Explain.

And boo-hoo to the defenders. PA very routinely get this stuff wrong. Routinely! How many chances do they get? Maybe they're just conservative on this stuff and maybe that's okay. But it will mean PAX isn't for everybody.
So because they've made mistakes in the past lets demonize all their future attempts to rectify the damage they may have caused to the industry?
 
Send an invitation to the guys from PA, maybe they will learn from the experience.

Maybe they would, but I'm not in charge of giving out badges. I have my doubts that the GaymerX organizers would consider an olive branch after the awful things Mike said about the transgender community.
 
Penny Arcade is asked to make their convention a safe space.

Instead makes the only marked safe space somewhere off in the corner. Probably up in the 6th Floor, PAX's Kentia, where nobody can see it, next to the indie booths, so nobody has to think about it.

They will continue to never fucking get it.

Where the hell are you getting this from? Have you been there? Were you somehow whisked back from the future, where the event already happened?

Because, let me tell you: it hasn't happened yet. You don't know what's it's going to be like, or where it will be held. Maybe it won't be in a corner! Maybe it's you that doesn't get it.
 
Reading 90% of the drive by postings in this thread make me realize how much work goes into planning a convention, and how easy it must be to just throw your hands up in the air and exclaim that it's simply not worth it.
Maybe they would, but I'm not in charge of giving out badges. I have my doubts that the GaymerX organizers would consider an olive branch after the awful things Mike said about the transgender community.
Not that they're under the slightest obligation to do so, but refusing to engage someone with a misguided opinion isn't going to help change their mind.
 
I haven't done so from any of those points. I come from a place where my life was compared to magical foxes and dolphins by unrepentant transphobe Mike. To act like I have to support an organization or its tone-deaf 'diversity land' (that is just a few yards short of missing the point) just because is actually ridiculous.

I'm not advocating that people should feel compelled to support the initiative, or that it should ameliorate the churlish behavior that Mike Krahulik has previously engaged in. What I am specifically criticizing are the hopelessly hamfisted comparisons of a feminist-originated, pro-LGBT concept like safe spaces (applied, in this particular instance, to PAX) to whatever historic atrocity is presently in vogue by people who by all rights ought to know better, and who are doing so in the public eye.

By referring to one of your prior posts in this thread I see public figures in the video games industry comparing this initiative -- which is such a direct implementation of the concept of a safe space that it adopts its terminology wholesale -- to the practice of placing individuals of minority ethnicities in zoos for the public to gawk at. I see it being called Orwellian, I see it being dismissed out of hand, and I see it being called literally worse than nothing (though nowadays there's always the potential that the statement "literally worse than nothing" actually means "figuratively worse than nothing" so there's some wiggle room on that one).

All of these statements are being made in reference to a leaked document detailing plans for a by-the-books implementation of a 100% feminist, pro-diversity idea at one of the largest video game conventions in existence. By virtually any standard I can think of, this is a significant victory with regards to ideas of inclusiveness in the video game industry. And the architects of this initiative are not just being criticized for considering it, they are being utterly savaged.

When I call this situation real bad, that's what I'm referring to. Because that's real bad.
 
It isn't segregration.

It's just a place where you can ask questions and interact about these matters. It's great, because there are some problems that a lot of us just don't really get and understanding these issues goes a long way for us in the long run.

Fuck's sake guys, have some reading comprehension sometime.

This, this a thousand times over.
 
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If you are showing a game demo in the diversity area, you have to have one in the cis white male area too, so people can look at it without having to interact with different people.
 
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If you are showing a game demo in the diversity area, you have to have one in the cis white male area too, so people can look at it without having to interact with different people.

You know what?

Screw you.

That's not what that part refers to at all. Not even a little bit.
 
Not that they're under the slightest obligation to do so, but refusing to engage someone with a misguided opinion isn't going to help change their mind.

That's not the obligation or prerogative of the ones affected by the harmful behavior, actions, and statements made by a bigot. You cannot expect or ask of the people who are the target of bigoted and marginalizing comments to somehow engage the perpetrator in a unequal discussion on trying to change bigoted opinions.
 
He had views others did not like and did things others did not like but asserts himself despite them. Why should he apologize and how would it affect everyone at PAX overall?
I've never seen someone here actually defend someone's transphobic remarks with "why should he apologize? He's asserted himself" before.

I feel like there must be some deep satire here I'm unaware of.
 
Well a big part of the idea behind safe spaces is that they provide a useful function even in inclusive venues. The basic principle is that majority culture can be exclusionary even without overt hostility towards minorities simply through weight of numbers and the inherent otherness that that foments. A delineated safe space provides (at least in theory) some measure of relief from that. A safe space, as originally defined, pretty much can't exist in a way that encompasses the entirety of a venue which contains a representative cross-section of the population at large, because the demographic make-up of that group is inherently othering.

By way of example, even at explicitly feminist conventions it's not unheard-of to have designated safe spaces for racial, sexual, or gender minorities, and by the standards of general society there'd be few venues more conducive to being broad-based safe spaces than overt feminist gatherings. In American feminist discourse, specifically, ideas of safe spaces came partially to prominence as a direct result of the difficulties that the American feminist movement as a whole has had over the years in dealing with issues of race.

That wasn't my point. This is my point in regards to making the entire show "a safe space", by putting the LBGTQ issues right alongside the show. E.g.

Make the entire convention a safe space. Put diversity right alongside everything else.

It's not necessary. Have the LGBT logo on the promotional material, call it an "inclusive event" and stop the organisers from making homophobic/transphobic/racist/sexist jokes and you're done.

There. Now the whole convention strives to be a safe space and PA guys and the audience will be much more aware of it than one closed-out area on the floor.
 
I sure hope noone reads the link so my kneejerk mob mentality reaction of ignorance goes unnoticed.

What? People have read it already? Time to move some goalposts. Goddamn them for even trying. They're obviously trying to spite all of us. Better bitch about it on NeoGaf rather than write them an email explaining how I think people would feel more included than places dedicated to educating people.
 
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If you are showing a game demo in the diversity area, you have to have one in the cis white male area too, so people can look at it without having to interact with different people.

Or, they don't want people not interested in games grabbing a spot without interacting with the primary reason people are at the spot. Prime spot for anyone seeking to attract attention to get it.

Funny how perspective works. I think some of you guys are reading too much into this. PA made a bunch of fuckups and are trying to rectify it, from my perspective. Is this just criticism and a snowball rolling down hill way too fast or are people open to reconciliation?
 
My problem with it is, it shouldn't be a "section" that people can actively avoid. Spread it throughout the convention.

Why not? I think categorized areas in a gaming show are a good thing. Even for games. What if someone isn't comfortable around something like overly violent FPSes? Wouldn't it be good to make the show a safe place for people with traumatic events associated with gun violence to be able to say "Oh, all the FPS heavy games are on this side of the floor so I should probably steer clear and not go over there"?
 
There. Now the whole convention strives to be a safe space and PA guys and the audience will be much more aware of it than one closed-out area on the floor.

The existence of the 'diversity hub' does not mean the rest of the expo will ignore diversity altogether. I don't even understand how you come to that conclusion.
 
Can we just have games? I'll take games. I'd rather skip all the offended banter from the PC police every time "PAX" is uttered. Games would be nice.

My advice to you would be to stick to threads that deal solely with games - there's no shortage of them.

Other people like discussing broader issues relating to video games and the industry.
 
Ya know, part of me understands this, part of me disagrees and part of me says this is a gaming con and its not the reason I attend. I immerse myself in gaming controversy, feminism and sexist depictions in media in many places of the internet and the last thing I want is a convention I go to and unwind to become some sort of battleground.

The other issue, im trying to figure out just why PAX needs a safe spot. The convention as a whole has been one of the most inclusive and welcoming groups ive experienced. Theres a definite disconnect between the actions of one of the founders and how he has little to no input in the con itself nowadays.

Buy then again im a white male so what I have to say rarely counts for much on these issues.
 
Please explain how having to have duplicate booths is not about discrimination.

I explained my opinion right above you. Some group, not interested in reconciliation, wants to make PAX and PA pay, get a booth to cause mischief. They want a place to focus on it. They may not be interested in showing games but embarrasing PA. The current leaked intention has flaws but what approach doesn't have flaws in this particular situation? I know others have said make it inclusive throughout but PA is dealing with an industry that is self discriminatory. If you spread them all out, people interested in it may miss it.

It's an argument that we want PA to go from terrible to excellent in one show. Who expects that? I'm not condoning terrible approaches but the logic is that we want PA to get it perfect or really good on the first shot. This is their first or second shot. They will hopefully learn. And get better. Who expects 'really good' this time around?
 
The existence of the 'diversity hub' does not mean the rest of the expo will ignore diversity altogether. I don't even understand how you come to that conclusion.

Okay, giving you the benefit of the doubt. Imagine you're right and it doesn't. You approach PAX with a panel on being gay and Dragon Age fandom (say). They put you in the Diversity Panel area. At any other PAX, that would have been in the main area. It's welcome, but its marginalised. Hope that explains it.

Let's all hug because they just announced Zelda Warriors.
 
That wasn't my point. This is my point in regards to making the entire show "a safe space", by putting the LBGTQ issues right alongside the show. E.g.





There. Now the whole convention strives to be a safe space and PA guys and the audience will be much more aware of it than one closed-out area on the floor.

I understand the idea behind advocating that the entire convention should be inclusive and welcoming. My point is that creating clearly delineated safe spaces for minority individuals is in no way in opposition to that idea, and that even if there was a widespread perception of the convention as being fully inclusive of minority groups that these safe spaces would still not be without merit.

They aren't opposing objectives or ideals, as evinced by the usage of similarly-designed areas even in places where there is near-unanimous perception of it as being a safe place for minority individuals, such as at a feminist gathering.
 
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