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PC Racing Sims Thread

Dave_6

Member
I just gave the 650S/Nordschleife combo a go; went a 7:36.220 on my out lap after sitting in the pits ~23 secs before moving. Default setup with medium tires and 'fast' track (24 degrees and light fog). Second lap was thrown away after I binned it 3 times lol. I can rarely ever make a fast, clean lap of the 'ring, especially in one of the McLarens. They just get too tail happy and I'm also a little aggressive. I'll give it another go later.
 

DD

Member
Man, now I want my VGA back. I want to join the fun with RaceRoom and my recently bought BMW Z4 GT3. :c
 

Zeth

Member
Did you tune the setup or did you run the default? What tires did you use?

That telemetry app looks cool!

SideKick is great. Creator has another minimalist app with much more info called Race Essentials. I use both of them sometimes. Gives you just about everything in a very small corner of the screen (use them in VR too).
promo_latest-png.144056

edit: Oops, misread your post - but I'm leaving this here anyway :p
 

TJP

Member
Thinking caps on for this blog post..

ISI said:
I know people have been waiting for this for some time. What process do I actually use to create the tyres? What data do we need, and how do we use that data? These questions are deep and will have to be covered over at least a couple separate blogs. The first area is always going to be the data collection phase, and initial implementation, this is what I'm covering this week.

Link to blog post:http://isiforums.net/f/entry.php/18-Tyres-The-Big-One-(Part-I)

 

TJP

Member
Alan's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCRiOSVsBmE

Based on his comments, Alan needs a bit of help with his Thrustmaster wheel settings which is odd given the Kunos office has been filed with their wheels at various times! I'd have thought the default settings would 'just work' like they do for the 'lesser' wheels such as the G series from Logitech.
 

VVV Mars VG

Member
Alan's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCRiOSVsBmE

Based on his comments, Alan needs a bit of help with his Thrustmaster wheel settings which is odd given the Kunos office has been filed with their wheels at various times! I'd have thought the default settings would 'just work' like they do for the 'lesser' wheels such as the G series from Logitech.

No its to do with the way you have to set up the thrustmaster settings to 900 degrees, I use 360 degrees which translates to all games perfectly. AC uses an older method of turning the wheel 90 degrees, this results in an imperfect rotation. The game also doesn't recognise my wheel and every time I play I have to create a new controller set-up. This combined with the resolution issues other have faces and a random brightness issue a few months back, hence I don't get round to playing it quite as often as I would like. All of that should be sorted for the console release.
 

terrible

Banned
No its to do with the way you have to set up the thrustmaster settings to 900 degrees, I use 360 degrees which translates to all games perfectly. AC uses an older method of turning the wheel 90 degrees, this results in an imperfect rotation. The game also doesn't recognise my wheel and every time I play I have to create a new controller set-up. This combined with the resolution issues other have faces and a random brightness issue a few months back, hence I don't get round to playing it quite as often as I would like. All of that should be sorted for the console release.

Do you typically also have a controller (Xbox One or otherwise) connected to your PC when you boot the game up? For me that causes the game to lose my wheel settings and I have to set everything up all over again. If I unplug my controller before starting the game my settings don't get reset.
 

VVV Mars VG

Member
Do you typically also have a controller (Xbox One or otherwise) connected to your PC when you boot the game up? For me that causes the game to lose my wheel settings and I have to set everything up all over again. If I unplug my controller before starting the game my settings don't get reset.

There's always something attached, whether its XB controllers, VR controllers or Hotas stick controls. So alas every time I get back to it, the same issue is always apparent.
 

terrible

Banned
There's always something attached, whether its XB controllers, VR controllers or Hotas stick controls. So alas every time I get back to it, the same issue is always apparent.

It's a pretty annoying bug to say the least. I have no idea why they haven't fixed it yet.
 
Thinking caps on for this blog post..
This is cool for modders who want to make their own tires for rF2, but I think most people are far more interesting in how ISI is making the magic happen. How do they know about carcass stiffness, deformation, transfer of forces through the tire via flexing and where do they get data for stuff that can't be extrapolated like high slip-angles no tire manufacturer tests their tires at.

A "how it used to be done in gaming" historic overview would be fantastic too, but ISI is probably more interested in giving out information that can help people add value to their product than in entertaining sim geeks.
 
Short details from the last Kunos stream from yesterday:

Stefano Cassillo said about version 1.8 that will be out with the day1 console patch:

- significant performance imrprovement (his example went from 75 to ~100 fps and on his work computer he was running the game at 390fps with a GTX 1080, which is actually higher than the physics polling that is 333fps in AC)
- light reflection jaggies improvement especially noticable at higher distances (not an AA solution)
- Ai improvements /fixes
(probably lots more, but that is what he talked about this time)


Marco Massarutto joined later and said that they did not just acquire the Porsche license, they are now partners with Porsche.
Just like they do with Ferrari they will provide Porsche with Assetto Corsa PRO for their racing department and Porsche museum. He also said that 3 Porsche cars will be available for free and 24 Porsche cars will be coming in total - split over 3(!) DLC packs. He visited Porsche in Stuttgart last week when he got a warm welcome and was told that they are "fans of Assetto Corsa" at Porsche.
He also mentioned to have received "a ton of data", which as far as I know is not a standard. Some car manufacturers still only deliver a bare minimum or even questionable data that is supposed to make their cars performance better than it actually is (<-- not coming from Marco, that's my 2 cents... I think I remember it from a Forza 5 Turn 10 interview).

Assetto Corsa will get the oval-bend inter-lap version of classic Monza (Monza Sopraelevata) as well as classic Silverstone and there is at least one more new track coming this year and it's not Suzuka, Marco really wanted Suzuka but for the money they wanted in the negotiations the called them "out of their minds". They are planning on more fantasy road track based on an Italian or Scottish laser scan.
Also coming this year are the Ferrari FXX K, 488 GTB and Praga R1. McLaren P1 GTR (edit: and McLaren 570S) and BMW M6 GT3 are coming after the Porsche packs and possibly a Toyota GT86 GT4, they are trying to license the Alfa Romeo Giulia and there are more modern Maseratis, the Lotus 3-Eleven as well as LMP cars on the way including the Toyota TS040 but it sounded like 2017 as well. Aston Martin licensing didn't work out.
They will try to offer a season pass for the packs on Steam.
 

TJP

Member
Short details from the last Kunos stream from yesterday:

Stefano Cassillo said about version 1.8 that will be out with the day1 console patch:

- significant performance imrprovement (his example went from 75 to ~100 fps and on his work computer he was running the game at 390fps with a GTX 1080, which is actually higher than the physics polling that is 333fps in AC)
- light reflection jaggies improvement especially noticable at higher distances (not an AA solution)
- Ai improvements /fixes
(probably lots more, but that is what he talked about this time)
Thanks for the recap; I find the 90+ minutes per video a little too long to wade through.

390fps on a single GTX 1080 is staggering IF Stefano had every option in AC's graphics menu set at the default or maximum levels. Did Stefano state what settings AC was at to achieve these numbers? I'm not doubting the 1080 is a great GPU however AC running at 390fps seems to me like the Yebis post-processing is off and most of the other settings are at their lowest. Anyone running rF2 with one of these GPU's?

It wouldn't surprise me if performance optimisations have flowed from the console versions too ;)

RD list (http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/assetto-corsa-porsche-update-and-other-news.124563/) a few of the known Porsche models that are in development:
  • 917/30 Spyder - 1973
  • 911 Carrera RSR 3.0 - 1974
  • 935-78 "Moby Dick" - 1978
  • 919 Hybrid 2015 and 2016
  • 911 Carrera S - 2016
  • Cayman GT4 ClubSport - 2016
  • 911 Carrera Cup
  • 718 - 2016 (likely Boxster S)
  • Panamera II - 2017

A few more Q&A can be found here: http://pastebin.com/raw/v7yxujKe (taken from the RD link above). A lot of very interesting titbits for those who read it ;)
Marco Massarutto joined later and said that they did not just acquire the Porsche license, they are now partners with Porsche.

Just like they do with Ferrari they will provide Porsche with Assetto Corsa PRO for their racing department and Porsche museum. He also said that 3 Porsche cars will be available for free and 24 Porsche cars will be coming in total - split over 3(!) DLC packs. He visited Porsche in Stuttgart last week when he got a warm welcome and was told that they are "fans of Assetto Corsa" at Porsche.
How can this partnership be happening when I've read on the internet that Assetto Corsa is a 'simcade' hotlapping game that has no simulation value!
/s

He also mentioned to have received "a ton of data", which as far as I know is not a standard. Some car manufacturers still only deliver a bare minimum or even questionable data that is supposed to make their cars performance better than it actually is
And yet people/blogs wonder why Kunos and other dev's have to made educated guesses a lot of the time. As the head physics guy at ISI posted on his blog about tyres - getting great data from any manufacturer is mana from heaven and if its also usable within the sim, it is even more amazing luck.

Assetto Corsa will get the oval-bend inter-lap version of classic Monza (Monza Sopraelevata) as well as classic Silverstone and there is at least one more new track coming this year and it's not Suzuka, Marco really wanted Suzuka but for the money they wanted in the negotiations the called them "out of their minds". They are planning on more fantasy road track based on an Italian or Scottish laser scan.
All reads like great additions to AC. As Team VVV's Alan pointed out, a few more tracks as featured from each motorsport category in AC would be great!

Also coming this year are the Ferrari FXX K, 488 GTB and Praga R1. McLaren P1 GTR (edit: and McLaren 570S) and BMW M6 GT3 are coming after the Porsche packs and possibly a Toyota GT86 GT4, they are trying to license the Alfa Romeo Giulia and there are more modern Maseratis, the Lotus 3-Eleven as well as LMP cars on the way including the Toyota TS040 but it sounded like 2017 as well. Aston Martin licensing didn't work out.
From what I've seen with R3E, Aston Martin are really finicky when it comes to their cars so I'm not surprised a deal with Kunos fell through. Great that we have so many other great marques to appreciate (and modders can fill in what AM won't allow).


They will try to offer a season pass for the packs on Steam.
The turd in the punchbowl moment. How about a discount for those customers who already own DLC content ala what Raceroom and others do now.

'Season passes' can sod off and die a horrible death. These so-called 'passes' must appear to be a really odd concept to anyone outside of video games and/or Disneyland. If Kunos go down this path I'll wait for the DLC to be in a Steam sale as rarely do season passes offer value for money.
 

TJP

Member
Myself said:
Anyone running rF2 with one of these GPU's?
Seems Tim Wheatley has already done just that..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DMKF3P_RI

Unfortunately I don't know his in-game settings however from the video frame rate is anywhere from 138fps to 228fps for a single car running on one 1080P monitor at Silverstone. This is either great news or indicates a lot of CPU and GPU power is needed for rF2!

Got to love Tim:
xttMf1H.jpg
 
The season pass sounded more like "we want to offer a discount if you want to buy all 3 Porsche DLC packs at once" and they didn't even know how to do that on steam yet.

390fps was just practice sitting in the pit with no other cars on the track. I'm sure Ai will make any cpu a bottleneck in combination with a 1080.
You can see if the cpu or gpu is bottlecking from the percentage next to CPU in the render stats app build into AC. I think nobody knew how to read that before this stream; it shows the ratio cpu time versus the time it takes to fully render/output a frame => high CPU percentage means, the CPU is finishing just in time, low percentage means get a better gpu, your cpu is bored.
 

TJP

Member
The season pass sounded more like "we want to offer a discount if you want to buy all 3 Porsche DLC packs at once" and they didn't even know how to do that on steam yet.
Yeah, I read the pastebin comment after I posted about the season pass and read their intentions about the Porsche DLC there.
 

terrible

Banned
Seems Tim Wheatley has already done just that..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DMKF3P_RI

Unfortunately I don't know his in-game settings however from the video frame rate is anywhere from 138fps to 228fps for a single car running on one 1080P monitor at Silverstone. This is either great news or indicates a lot of CPU and GPU power is needed for rF2!

Got to love Tim:
xttMf1H.jpg

I just got a GTX 1060 and with everything maxed out at 1080P with AI on the track I get 80-120 FPS it seems. It dips into the 80s when AI are on my screen but once I'm ahead of the pack (or way behind lol) it shoots into the 100s.

I haven't tried many tracks and I know some are way more demanding than others so I expect my results will vary a lot the more I play.
 
You can get a big boost in framerate in AC by dropping AF from 16x to 8x, oddly.

It's a pretty annoying bug to say the least. I have no idea why they haven't fixed it yet.
This bug drives me insane. I'm fairly sure the profiles relate to a particular controller ID and this gets messed up if you have additional controllers plugged in or connect your wheel/shifter in a different order. I always ensure my XB controller is disconnected and I plug my T300 + Shifter in the same order/USB ports and haven't seen it for a while.

There's a post about in on the AC boards, I even uploaded my logs files as the developers ask but heard nothing.
 
You can get a big boost in framerate in AC by dropping AF from 16x to 8x, oddly.


This bug drives me insane. I'm fairly sure the profiles relate to a particular controller ID and this gets messed up if you have additional controllers plugged in or connect your wheel/shifter in a different order. I always ensure my XB controller is disconnected and I plug my T300 + Shifter in the same order/USB ports and haven't seen it for a while.

There's a post about in on the AC boards, I even uploaded my logs files as the developers ask but heard nothing.

Thanks for AF-tip, I'm gonna try that. Another tip is to really have everything set to "let the application decide" in the nvidia control panel. After I tried nVidia Experience on the game once and reverted the settings later, I had ~15fps less than I used to, because it didn't reset the forcing of some global 3D settings on the game.

Anyway the real fps-downer for me is the Ai. My stone-age i7 ~3.2Ghz can't keep up with this game if there are more than 10 cars on the grid even though it's actually pretty good at multi-threading the load over my 8 logical cores.
 

TJP

Member
I just got a GTX 1060 and with everything maxed out at 1080P with AI on the track I get 80-120 FPS it seems. It dips into the 80s when AI are on my screen but once I'm ahead of the pack (or way behind lol) it shoots into the 100s.

I haven't tried many tracks and I know some are way more demanding than others so I expect my results will vary a lot the more I play.
My ever aging GTX680 SC runs rF2 at 60fps (locked) with 20 AI in a storm at Silverstone so I'm not complaining 8)

My post was more a general comment about the look of rF2 versus its graphical splendour. It seems to tax hardware a lot more than most other sims!
 

terrible

Banned
My ever aging GTX680 SC runs rF2 at 60fps (locked) with 20 AI in a storm at Silverstone so I'm not complaining 8)

My post was more a general comment about the look of rF2 versus its graphical splendour. It seems to tax hardware a lot more than most other sims!

I stopped playing the game on my 6950 Toxic because it ran so poorly haha. Had no such issues with anything else so yeah it definitely seems to require way better hardware than you'd think based on its looks. I can't wait to get back into it now that it runs well for me.
 

mrsmr2

Member
I stopped playing the game on my 6950 Toxic because it ran so poorly haha. Had no such issues with anything else so yeah it definitely seems to require way better hardware than you'd think based on its looks. I can't wait to get back into it now that it runs well for me.

I'm surprised at that. I've had a 7850 for the last 3.5 yrs (just upgraded to a 970) and I had most tracks/car combos running at 120fps (in bumper view). I've turned a number of settings down but it's still running most things at mid to high.

I didn't think the 7850 was significantly faster than a 6950.

Now to see what the 970 can do...
 

terrible

Banned
I'm surprised at that. I've had a 7850 for the last 3.5 yrs (just upgraded to a 970) and I had most tracks/car combos running at 120fps (in bumper view). I've turned a number of settings down but it's still running most things at mid to high.

I didn't think the 7850 was significantly faster than a 6950.

Now to see what the 970 can do...

Since I had a Sapphire 6950 Toxic my card was actually faster than a 6970 so I think it had a 7850 beat. On the lowest possible settings I couldn't touch 60 FPS with AI on the track. I'm glad those days are over.

The 970 seems to have pretty similar performance to my 1060 so you're in good shape.
 

TJP

Member
I stopped playing the game on my 6950 Toxic because it ran so poorly haha. Had no such issues with anything else so yeah it definitely seems to require way better hardware than you'd think based on its looks. I can't wait to get back into it now that it runs well for me.
One aspect to remember about rF2 is that it runs better on Nvidia hardware because unlike AMD (and this is a point forgotten on NeoGAF in the various AMD vs Nvidia threads) Nvidia will work with any developer. This is not something I've concocted, the difference in support has been stated by Tim Weatley in the ISI forums, Ian Bell of SMS mentioned a lack of help with pCARS from AMD and in my own interactions with Sector3. ISI contacted both GPU companies and received interest and help from Nvidia only.

That said, Tim Weatley described AMD as great hardware just not so great software support. Perhaps this will change over time with the newish AMD CEO however it is a point worth remembering when buying a new GPU.

It would be great to see a 1060 versus 480 in rF2 to see if the above still holds true.
 

TJP

Member
According to Sim Racing For Life FB page, Simtek's long awaited Blancpain GT3 rF2 mod is releasing by the end of the month with AMG, Camaro, Huracan, 488, 650s and Continental GT. Will be interesting to see how it compares with the mods already available ;)

Info here: https://www.facebook.com/simtekmods/
 

mrsmr2

Member
That's a good point about the AMD drivers. I remember Tim saying AMD's drivers didn't support some of the advanced features of rF2. No-one believed him.

Then Spinelli arranged for people to contact AMD about rF2s poor performance.

Drivers 14.1 (Feb 2014) transformed rF2 on my 7850. I could actually turn on the mirrors (massive fps drop before the update) and some other settings.

We've had equivalent nVidia performance since then.
 

DD

Member
Man, now I want my VGA back. I want to join the fun with RaceRoom and my recently bought BMW Z4 GT3. :c

Good news for me. Managed to pick a GTX 960 instead a new 950 for a fex extra bucks, yey! Soon I'll be rocking in Nordschleiffe with you guys! \o\
 

terrible

Banned
rFactor 2 is so much fun, I had a blast over the weekend playing the crap out of it. Pretty sure I put in like 6 hours straight on Saturday or something wild. There was a pretty big storm so I was stuck inside most of the day and figured why not lol.

What are the essential car mods that don't come standard with the Steam version? Road cars or race cars, doesn't matter.
 

TJP

Member
rFactor 2 is so much fun, I had a blast over the weekend playing the crap out of it. Pretty sure I put in like 6 hours straight on Saturday or something wild. There was a pretty big storm so I was stuck inside most of the day and figured why not lol.

What are the essential car mods that don't come standard with the Steam version? Road cars or race cars, doesn't matter.
rF2 should get more love around here but it doesn't. No idea why to be honest; it's one of the most complete incomplete sims available! By that I mean rF2 has fully changeable weather, 24 hour cycles, real road tech, dirt and rubber build-up, an advanced tyre model etc and yet we don't have functioning windscreen wipers, the wet road/wet tyres remain a WIP, the graphics range from okay to horrible and yet it's really heavy on system resources...

Anyway some mods to try/buy:

United Racing Design: http://www.unitedracingdesign.net/#!shop/c9dh (paid for mods that are excellent).
Corvette C6R mod: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...3-C7R-2014-15-by-UnitedRacingDesign-July-2016
Flat 6 mod: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/26014-Flat6-Series-rF2-build-1-00
V8 Supercar 2014 mod: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...s-2014-2016-v6-1-Updated-26-June-2016-UPDATED
Apex GT3 mod: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/18073-Apex-Modding-GT3-mod-(0-935)
ASR F1 mods (heavy on resources as no LOD swapping): http://www.asrformula.com/
Lola T70: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/24045-Lola-T70-Spyder
Lola T280: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/17287-Lola-t280
Audi TT Sport (brake squeal may cause death): http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/26176-Audi-TT-Sport-Cup-2015
Ferrari Challenge 2011: http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/ferrari-challenge-2011.2333/

A list of 'legal' mods: http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/categories/rfactor-2.3/?order=rating_weighted

A place for many rips, dodgy conversions and everything in between: https://www.facebook.com/simracingforlife/?fref=ts

I won't bother with many tracks as many are shite and not worth the download. Perhaps others on the forum can suggest a few outside of the Virtua_LM and Feels3 tracks. RD has a few here: http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/categories/rf2-tracks.17/?order=rating_weighted
 

terrible

Banned
rF2 should get more love around here but it doesn't. No idea why to be honest; it's one of the most complete incomplete sims available! By that I mean rF2 has fully changeable weather, 24 hour cycles, real road tech, dirt and rubber build-up, an advanced tyre model etc and yet we don't have functioning windscreen wipers, the wet road/wet tyres remain a WIP, the graphics range from okay to horrible and yet it's really heavy on system resources.

Thanks for all those links. I downloaded what I could and I'll install them next time I play. I'll probably give that Corvette a go right away.

Yeah some of the tracks I've seen are really far off. I had a version of Brands Hatch that wasn't even recognizable lol. I noticed the laser scanned AC version has been sneakily converted for rF2 though so that's maybe an option. Kunos must be pissed. How many of their tracks have people ripped off? I only know of 2.
 

TJP

Member
Thanks for all those links. I downloaded what I could and I'll install them next time I play. I'll probably give that Corvette a go right away.
No worries! Hopefully the links to mods are worth the downloads.

Yeah some of the tracks I've seen are really far off. I had a version of Brands Hatch that wasn't even recognizable lol. I noticed the laser scanned AC version has been sneakily converted for rF2 though so that's maybe an option. Kunos must be pissed. How many of their tracks have people ripped off? I only know of 2.
I believe the rips to rF2 are the tarmac mesh rather than the 'full fat' bumps and ridges of AC's - there was a lot of discussion when the full Nurburgring appeared online as to how and what was ported across to rF2 from AC. The rips I've used are mostly better than the standard rips from Codemasters, SimBin, Simraceway (likely to R.I.P soon) and SMS releases.

Even though it's no where near accurate, the scatch made Nurburgring made by several people for rF and ported across to rF2 is a far better option as it's fan made and has been performance optimised.

I believe there are several track rips taken from AC available nowadays however many are incomplete 'private' mods that you won't find on Race Department but on selected websites and forums.
 
I just beefed up my gaming pc, I have an Xbox one...logitech g920 is 240 on Amazon. I dunno, why I am considering this?

Is this a good direction to go compatibility wise over the ps4 g29?
 
I just beefed up my gaming pc, I have an Xbox one...logitech g920 is 240 on Amazon. I dunno, why I am considering this?

Is this a good direction to go compatibility wise over the ps4 g29?
Yes, if you expect to use your wheel with Xbox and PC, then the G920 is definitely the way to go. The extra buttons on the G29 are handy, and the rev lights are neat (albeit fairly redundant due to their positioning), but it's otherwise exactly the same.
 

spuckthew

Member
Yes, if you expect to use your wheel with Xbox and PC, then the G920 is definitely the way to go. The extra buttons on the G29 are handy, and the rev lights are neat (albeit fairly redundant due to their positioning), but it's otherwise exactly the same.

I'm biased, but the TX will achieve the same (Xbox compatibility) and it doesn't use old technology.

Brushless servo motors are meant to be more precise or something. I don't really know the ins and outs though, so maybe it's not really a big deal.

Just get whatever's cheaper I guess lol
 
Yes, if you expect to use your wheel with Xbox and PC, then the G920 is definitely the way to go. The extra buttons on the G29 are handy, and the rev lights are neat (albeit fairly redundant due to their positioning), but it's otherwise exactly the same.
Just like with the T150 vs. g29 debate, I don't have any personal experience, but looking at these charts, collected by David Tucker from iRacing from setups he mounted at his desk...
there may be minor differences between G27 and G29 and even between G29 and G920. Not sure if they are noticeable in a game thoug.
 

TJP

Member

terrible

Banned
Pretty sure my T300 is dying. It sometimes squeaks inside and the FFB feels numb when that happens, almost like a belt is slipping. Damn it. Wish they had an RMA center in Canada. Bet it'll be expensive sending that off to the USA.

I'll switch to my TX for now I guess :/
 

Shaneus

Member
Unless Reiza have done a backflip, I don't believe AMS is coming to any consoles ;)
Ah shit, all the talk of AC launching on consoles has me confused :/

Good to know it'll be worth buying in a Steam sale :)

I see physics guru Mark Reynolds of Kylotonn games (and ex-simBin/Sector 3) has been raving about F1 2016 too.
I can't judge to that extent, but people are raving about it in the OT. Fully fleshed career mode, looks and drives well too and a very minimal amount of bugs thus far.
 
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