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PC Racing Sims

patchday

Member
https://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=86202

playing lfs over the weekend on the rift has convinced me to sell my triple monitor setup, it's a really fantastic experience and beats triple on everything bar clarity, it's weird how quickly you adjust to it all, like suddenly spinning your head 180 degrees to see a crash happening behind like you've been doing it for years, gonna get a rog swift monitor as a replacement

I'm chiming in super late here but I agree with this post. I think triple monitor rigs will be a thing of the past. The Rift blows that away. I have the low res Rift version though :(

If I were a serious PC sim racer I'd pony up for 1080p. But as it is, I havent had any time to mess with any racing sims in a few months. Maybe after I get through my backlog of games I'll come back to iracing or something.
 

TJP

Member
Friends don't let friends v-sync racing games. 1-888-DONTLAG Call them and they'll help you stay off the GeForce Experience, and get your life back to being synchronized.

:p Seriously though, don't do it! Poison-XXX! Slow lap times ahead!
Ha! I don't use GFE as it's bloatware designed for people who are new to PC gaming. I'm running modded Quadro drivers anyway so no GFE for my PC.

As for using v-sync, it's personal choice. I don't worry about v-sync too much in racing sims; in Assetto Corsa and iRacing, I simply limit the frame rate (not v-sync) and I don't see much point thrashing my GPU by running GSC-E at over 300fps :). I don't see any lag either when using v-sync but then there are those who believe it is an issue...watching the Niels talk and drive, it is clear he runs GSC/rFactor with a lot of eye candy off so the fps are as high as possible to avoid lag.
 
Ha! I don't use GFE as it's bloatware designed for people who are new to PC gaming. I'm running modded Quadro drivers anyway so no GFE for my PC.

As for using v-sync, it's personal choice. I don't worry about v-sync too much in racing sims; in Assetto Corsa and iRacing, I simply limit the frame rate (not v-sync) and I don't see much point thrashing my GPU by running GSC-E at over 300fps :). I don't see any lag either when using v-sync but then there are those who believe it is an issue...watching the Niels talk and drive, it is clear he runs GSC/rFactor with a lot of eye candy off so the fps are as high as possible to avoid lag.

If you choose to do anything at all, limiting frame rate is definitely what you want to be doing. I think there's a max frame rate command somewhere in your GSC plr file.

Under no circumstance would I suggest you use vsync in a racing game. Whether you can see the lag, or not is irrelevant because it's there. By it's very nature it's there. It's having an impact on your driving even if the only way to quantify it is with lap times. Even then, I think a lot of people can feel the difference, although I think that's probably somewhat game dependant.

I'll make the vsync compromise in some other types of games however. Just not in something as hyper-sensitive as a racing sim.
 

Branson

Member
If you choose to do anything at all, limiting frame rate is definitely what you want to be doing. I think there's a max frame rate command somewhere in your GSC plr file.

Under no circumstance would I suggest you use vsync in a racing game. Whether you can see the lag, or not is irrelevant because it's there. By it's very nature it's there. It's having an impact on your driving even if the only way to quantify it is with lap times. Even then, I think a lot of people can feel the difference, although I think that's probably somewhat game dependant.

I'll make the vsync compromise in some other types of games however. Just not in something as hyper-sensitive as a racing sim.

I personally have tripple buffering through the nvidia control panel on GSCE. I only race offline so it's not a big deal on that game. I totally have it off on iRacing though. I can't really notice a difference but id like to think it's helping lol.
 
UK&I Skippy race coverage starts soon, with the ever-enthusiastic Wil Vincent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOZG0zoNIkY

We're at Donington Park for the first time, could be interesting! In the Skip races I've done this week, it seems like it's quite a tough place to overtake despite being fairly wide and having some long straights and heavy braking zones.

I'd better prepare for qualifying... I'll be #212. brb
 
UK&I Skippy race coverage starts soon, with the ever-enthusiastic Wil Vincent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOZG0zoNIkY

We're at Donington Park for the first time, could be interesting! In the Skip races I've done this week, it seems like it's quite a tough place to overtake despite being fairly wide and having some long straights and heavy braking zones.

I'd better prepare for qualifying... I'll be #212. brb

Nice. Too bad you didn't get more time at the front of a train like you did in the middle of the race when you closed the gap fairly quickly. Donington is a tough place to pass like you said.
 

TJP

Member
From Fecal Book:

Reiza Studios said:
We´re working on a small v1.21 patch to fix some of the main bugs that slipped through. Should not take more than a few days.

Edit: Reiza also tweeted: Our Formula Truck game will receive an update similar to the updates GSC has received.
 
Right on.

I also saw on a Race Department post that they're waiting on their DK2, but when they get it, they'll look to get support in as soon as possible.
 
Sim heaven checklist:

RF2/GSC/AC: check
T500 RS wheel: check (came yesterday)
Racing rig: check (came today)
Club Sport Pedals V2: check
Oculus Rift: cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon
 

Juicy Bob

Member
Just had a 60 minute free trial blast on GSCE.

Wow. This game is everything I hoped it would be!

Just spent the hour I had blasting around the A1 Ring in different Formula cars. Good God, the V12s sound orgasmic! I especially loved the new Formula Extreme V6 Turbo cars. They've really nailed what I imagined the torque of the new cars feels like. Wheelspin in fourth gear coming out of Turn Three!

Game looks incredible too. Especially on my relatively basic laptop. Can't believe I went so long without giving this game a try. Now I just have to find a spare £20...
 
Nice. Too bad you didn't get more time at the front of a train like you did in the middle of the race when you closed the gap fairly quickly. Donington is a tough place to pass like you said.
I had a poor qualifying so without doing some risky moves at the start it was inevitable that the leading few cars would start to pull a gap. I don't like this 20 minute free-for-all quali very much. It's strategic for all the wrong reasons (the strategy being 'get as much draft as possible'). It's the complete opposite to the normal qualifying in the Skip series where such behaviour is frowned upon.

Was a fun race anyway, some nice close racing on the last lap, but no 'contact' as Wil described. I didn't touch him I swear!

http://a.pomf.se/janftz.webm


Oculus Rift question: Do you guys use a 'look behind' button? Is it disorientating?
That would be very disorientating and probably nausea-inducing. As bee says, you either physically turn around or look in your mirrors.
 
I've got to get with the times on this webm stuff. I rejected it because Safari doesn't have native support, but I've since gone back to Chrome. I guess it's time to get the party started.

*space reserved for test webm* Hey, now that's pretty slick! I need to figure out the workflow a bit better though.

http://a.pomf.se/nhakiw.webm
 
Some impressions of PCARS with DK2.

In its current state, it is already absolutely phenomenal. When I imagine the look of this sim once it is polished, viewed through CV1, I become giddy with excitement. It is incredible stuff. The wow-factor is enormous. One of the best looking games, in a genre ideally suited to VR - the combination makes it probably the best Rift demo possible. This will sell Rifts and sim hardware like there's no tomorrow. Faces will figuratively melt, clothing literally urinated in.

With that out of the way, there are some current flaws. No doubt about it, Live For Speed is more responsive. I have tried all conceivable options to make PCARS respond as quickly. I am well above 75fps, I have applied all the recommended launch options, and I'm running it frame-limited with Nvidia Inspector and v-sync off, and LFS is still more responsive with v-sync ON. It's not a drastic difference, but significant enough to notice. The responsiveness of PCARS is fine, perfectly playable, and if you never saw LFS you might think it doesn't need to be any more responsive. But it makes me nauseous faster than LFS, and I'm convinced it is down to latency.

Whether this is because the LFS renderer is so simplistic compared to PCARS that there is simply less input lag at the same framerate, or because PCARS still has some stuff to work out, I'm not sure, but for now LFS has the advantage. That said, LFS isn't perfect - it's juddery when locked to 75 (head tracking is smooth, but the environment moves past in a consistent, slight judder - Scawen has acknowledged this and says it's a physics problem), whereas PCARS is totally smooth at 75 both in tracking and environment movement.

People have been putting the uncomfortable feeling they get in PCARS down to tracking problems compared to LFS, like the pivot point is wrong and the world movement is weird, but all of this can be resolved with settings. By default there is a bunch of G-force animation and the car reacts to bumps independently from your view, whereas in LFS you are totally fixed to your seat which makes a lot more sense in VR. You can change these values in PCARS to make it just as rigid as LFS. There is also a silly look-to-apex and a weird lean feature and camera shake all on by default, and all that stuff needs to be off. Once all this is off, the tracking seems identical to LFS, yet it's not quite as comfortable due to the slight latency issue.

But these are problems that should get ironed out, either with software updates for DK2 and PCARS, or simply from the more responsive hardware of CV1. Anyone patiently waiting for CV1 can basically ignore what I just said, it'll all be fine!

The short version is this: LFS feels like a being in a car, but in a weird dream where everything looks like an old video game. PCARS feels like being in a real car. That's it. Once I remove the headset after a PCARS session, it feels like I've had the privilege of actually driving a bunch of supercars and race cars on a bunch of famous tracks. It's the same giddy feeling I got as kid when I was allowed to sit in a really cool car. I could spend ours in the Huayra just looking around at the jewellery. And the rain... my goodness the rain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBG-YJLCEv4
 
Sim heaven checklist:

RF2/GSC/AC: check
T500 RS wheel: check (came yesterday)
Racing rig: check (came today)
Club Sport Pedals V2: check
Oculus Rift: cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon cmon
Rig, as in a thing to hold the wheel and pedals? Which did you get, if I may ask? I have the same wheel, and need a good wheelstand.
 
Some impressions of PCARS with DK2.

In its current state, it is already absolutely phenomenal. When I imagine the look of this sim once it is polished, viewed through CV1, I become giddy with excitement. It is incredible stuff. The wow-factor is enormous. One of the best looking games, in a genre ideally suited to VR - the combination makes it probably the best Rift demo possible. This will sell Rifts and sim hardware like there's no tomorrow. Faces will figuratively melt, clothing literally urinated in.

With that out of the way, there are some current flaws. No doubt about it, Live For Speed is more responsive. I have tried all conceivable options to make PCARS respond as quickly. I am well above 75fps, I have applied all the recommended launch options, and I'm running it frame-limited with Nvidia Inspector and v-sync off, and LFS is still more responsive with v-sync ON. It's not a drastic difference, but significant enough to notice. The responsiveness of PCARS is fine, perfectly playable, and if you never saw LFS you might think it doesn't need to be any more responsive. But it makes me nauseous faster than LFS, and I'm convinced it is down to latency.

Whether this is because the LFS renderer is so simplistic compared to PCARS that there is simply less input lag at the same framerate, or because PCARS still has some stuff to work out, I'm not sure, but for now LFS has the advantage. That said, LFS isn't perfect - it's juddery when locked to 75 (head tracking is smooth, but the environment moves past in a consistent, slight judder - Scawen has acknowledged this and says it's a physics problem), whereas PCARS is totally smooth at 75 both in tracking and environment movement.

People have been putting the uncomfortable feeling they get in PCARS down to tracking problems compared to LFS, like the pivot point is wrong and the world movement is weird, but all of this can be resolved with settings. By default there is a bunch of G-force animation and the car reacts to bumps independently from your view, whereas in LFS you are totally fixed to your seat which makes a lot more sense in VR. You can change these values in PCARS to make it just as rigid as LFS. There is also a silly look-to-apex and a weird lean feature and camera shake all on by default, and all that stuff needs to be off. Once all this is off, the tracking seems identical to LFS, yet it's not quite as comfortable due to the slight latency issue.

But these are problems that should get ironed out, either with software updates for DK2 and PCARS, or simply from the more responsive hardware of CV1. Anyone patiently waiting for CV1 can basically ignore what I just said, it'll all be fine!

The short version is this: LFS feels like a being in a car, but in a weird dream where everything looks like an old video game. PCARS feels like being in a real car. That's it. Once I remove the headset after a PCARS session, it feels like I've had the privilege of actually driving a bunch of supercars and race cars on a bunch of famous tracks. It's the same giddy feeling I got as kid when I was allowed to sit in a really cool car. I could spend ours in the Huayra just looking around at the jewellery. And the rain... my goodness the rain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBG-YJLCEv4

Such a great write-up. Thanks so much for that.

Wow at all that good news! That video... that video is pretty damn amazing. Sitting there watching the rain bead up on the glass gives a wonderful idea of the Rift's impact. From my lowly 2D perspective the POV looks entirely believable. It's so damn cool.

My biggest fear with some of these DK2 revelations are that latency problems run so deep within the APIs/engines that it's going to be virtually impossible to retrofit a perfect rift experience.

Maybe that's how it going to go for a variety of reasons anyway. Ground-up, low latency Rift games with appropriate performance output. 2D and VR will just go down different paths.

I don't know shit however. That's my just my layman's fear. Still very early days, even for the DK2. Things can change very quickly.
 

Mr.Green

Member
Some impressions of PCARS with DK2.

In its current state, it is already absolutely phenomenal. When I imagine the look of this sim once it is polished, viewed through CV1, I become giddy with excitement. It is incredible stuff. The wow-factor is enormous. One of the best looking games, in a genre ideally suited to VR - the combination makes it probably the best Rift demo possible. This will sell Rifts and sim hardware like there's no tomorrow. Faces will figuratively melt, clothing literally urinated in.

With that out of the way, there are some current flaws. No doubt about it, Live For Speed is more responsive. I have tried all conceivable options to make PCARS respond as quickly. I am well above 75fps, I have applied all the recommended launch options, and I'm running it frame-limited with Nvidia Inspector and v-sync off, and LFS is still more responsive with v-sync ON. It's not a drastic difference, but significant enough to notice. The responsiveness of PCARS is fine, perfectly playable, and if you never saw LFS you might think it doesn't need to be any more responsive. But it makes me nauseous faster than LFS, and I'm convinced it is down to latency.

Whether this is because the LFS renderer is so simplistic compared to PCARS that there is simply less input lag at the same framerate, or because PCARS still has some stuff to work out, I'm not sure, but for now LFS has the advantage. That said, LFS isn't perfect - it's juddery when locked to 75 (head tracking is smooth, but the environment moves past in a consistent, slight judder - Scawen has acknowledged this and says it's a physics problem), whereas PCARS is totally smooth at 75 both in tracking and environment movement.

People have been putting the uncomfortable feeling they get in PCARS down to tracking problems compared to LFS, like the pivot point is wrong and the world movement is weird, but all of this can be resolved with settings. By default there is a bunch of G-force animation and the car reacts to bumps independently from your view, whereas in LFS you are totally fixed to your seat which makes a lot more sense in VR. You can change these values in PCARS to make it just as rigid as LFS. There is also a silly look-to-apex and a weird lean feature and camera shake all on by default, and all that stuff needs to be off. Once all this is off, the tracking seems identical to LFS, yet it's not quite as comfortable due to the slight latency issue.

But these are problems that should get ironed out, either with software updates for DK2 and PCARS, or simply from the more responsive hardware of CV1. Anyone patiently waiting for CV1 can basically ignore what I just said, it'll all be fine!

The short version is this: LFS feels like a being in a car, but in a weird dream where everything looks like an old video game. PCARS feels like being in a real car. That's it. Once I remove the headset after a PCARS session, it feels like I've had the privilege of actually driving a bunch of supercars and race cars on a bunch of famous tracks. It's the same giddy feeling I got as kid when I was allowed to sit in a really cool car. I could spend ours in the Huayra just looking around at the jewellery. And the rain... my goodness the rain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBG-YJLCEv4


Driving the MRT5 in LFS with my Fanatec wheel and the Rift has literally been an epiphany. I can't play a driving sim on a monitor ever again.

That PCARS video is mind blowing. Can't. Fucking. Wait.
 
It is truly remarkable. The video simply can't capture the depth of the 3D - those two vents in the middle of the Huayra dash for example are flawless - they look entirely convincing and as finely-crafted as the real thing, and viewing these interiors at different times of day and weather conditions really seals the deal. When you get used to running in hazy sunshine for a while, and then switch to overcast or rainy, the change in atmosphere is overwhelming. The natural feeling is 'damn, I'm glad I'm not stuck out there, it's chucking it down' and I almost want to reach for the heater controls. :D
 

Mascot

Member
It is truly remarkable. The video simply can't capture the depth of the 3D - those two vents in the middle of the Huayra dash for example are flawless - they look entirely convincing and as finely-crafted as the real thing, and viewing these interiors at different times of day and weather conditions really seals the deal. When you get used to running in hazy sunshine for a while, and then switch to overcast or rainy, the change in atmosphere is overwhelming. The natural feeling is 'damn, I'm glad I'm not stuck out there, it's chucking it down' and I almost want to reach for the heater controls. :D

Sounds wonderful. The future is truly approaching rapidly.

Have you shared your thoughts here?
 
OMG! I was already 100% sold on the Rift for racing sims but that PCARS video makes me tingle with hype. I cannot wait for this thing to come out. Resisting the DK2 is becoming nearly impossible.

Thanks for the videos and impressions. Hype levels are now at critical mass.
 

Watevaman

Member
The Rift is gonna be amazing. I've actually been holding out on playing Flaming Cliffs 3 until I get one. I feel like I'm gonna spasm when I first get a hold of it.
 

Shawsie64

Banned
The Rift is gonna be amazing. I've actually been holding out on playing Flaming Cliffs 3 until I get one. I feel like I'm gonna spasm when I first get a hold of it.

Sitting in the F-15 in FC3 is mind blowing.. You really feel how big the aircraft is and you actually really feel 50,000 feet in the air. Incredible. The judder at the moment though and extremely low frame rates in DCS are unacceptable however. 95% of the time is unplayable even with everything on absolute lowest detail settings still getting sub 15fps on the runway. (i2500k @ 4ghz, 8GB ram, GTX 770 4gb OC).

Tried Pcars again last night, I cant get the lag out of the head tracking, tried heaps of different settings but no luck. Makes me sick within a min or two. LFS on the other hand is fantastic! Super responsive and feels great!
 

TJP

Member
Reiza posted on RD: "Quite a few performance and shadow flickering improvements inbound in 1.21, hold tight guys".

Might be able to play with a full grid of formula vee cars soon!
 
Damn that footage is just insane, I got giddy with excitement just imagining how it must feel to be enclosed in the model like that. Helps that it looks gorgeous too.
 

Mascot

Member
Damn that footage is just insane, I got giddy with excitement just imagining how it must feel to be enclosed in the model like that. Helps that it looks gorgeous too.
Yeah, I really wish Pazuzu9 would post a few more in different cars, tracks, conditions and TOD.

Pleeeeeeeeeeaaaaase?
 

Mr.Green

Member
I ordered an RSeat RS1 and I'm looking into adding one or more bass transducers to it and drive them with SimVibe. Info is pretty scarce on that subject online. You guys wouldn't have any wisdom to share by any chance?
 

amar212

Member

Once I saw the frog…

I can't unsee it now.

WPOUr1P.jpg
 
Rig, as in a thing to hold the wheel and pedals? Which did you get, if I may ask? I have the same wheel, and need a good wheelstand.
Well, it was a race-seat-wheels-and-pedals kinda thing, but my impulse purchase had enraged my wife to such an extent that we enjoyed a good hour long argument about frivolous purchases... before she ironically went out to buy some Prada shoes. We came to a compromise, if she returned the shoes, I'd return the rig (but still get a wheel stand). Surprisingly, she conceded and the shoes went back.

So, my family story aside, here's what I originally had:

Rosso Modello GTD Simulator Spec-i. I couldn't recommend this enough, such a comfortable driving position and ridged wheel stand. If I ever get divorced… etc etc

Here's what I have now:

Apiga AP2 Foldable Stand (new version). I'm mightily impressed so far. It's sturdy, highly adjustable and folds away neatly, keeping the pedals & wheels in place. The only negative for me is that it can get a tiny tiny bit wobbly when the arms are fully extended, so I'm using a lower seat and shortened arms to keep the stand solid.
 

Mr.Green

Member
Well, it was a race-seat-wheels-and-pedals kinda thing, but my impulse purchase had enraged my wife to such an extent that we enjoyed a good hour long argument about frivolous purchases... before she ironically went out to buy some Prada shoes. We came to a compromise, if she returned the shoes, I'd return the rig (but still get a wheel stand). Surprisingly, she conceded and the shoes went back.

So my wife ain't that bad after all. Thanks. No, really. I needed this tonight.
 
Well you knew this was coming eventually;

FIA sends out “cease and desist” letter to modding Teams

Appearantly the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile) have send out a “cease and desist” letter to several modding teams working on mods resembling FIA governed cars and series. A cease and desist letter is a request to a party to halt an activity and not take it up again or face legal action. It is rumoured that more unauthorized modding projects are under investigation, including hardware mods. In essence, it is not yet known if this crusade will only impact the open wheeler series, or if it will apply to more related racing series.

One of the modding teams that where recently hit are the F1ASR team. They where working on an a Ferrari 643 F1 and Formula 1 1992 mod. After receiving the cease and desist letter, the team announced that they will suspend work on the mods till further notice.

It looks like this will not just stop there. A month ago we at Bsimracing received a cease and desist letter from a well known brand requesting us not to post or promote any to their brand related software and Hardware mod news. VirtualR.net received a similar Formula 1 related “cease and desist” request only a few months ago.

The last few years it has been discussed and debated that with the growing Sim Racing popularity also the rules of the game could get stricter. A while ago the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA) announced a long term partnership with Polyphony Digital (Gran Turismo), revealing that there might be an FIA sanctioned Sim Racing championship in the making. With federations such as the FIA involved Sim Racing could soon become a sport. As with all sports, advertising and sponsorship will have their influence on what can and cannot be done.

The Modding scene also changed allot the last few years. With high detailed and higher quality models, the risk of being associated with a product is becoming apparent. High quality mods could also be seen as competition for licenced material by the established companies. Then there are trends such as payed modding and sponsored leagues and teams that might open up a can of worms when it comes to copyright infringements and people creating revenue with it. The multiple cross-platform conversions that appear lately have also raised attention and could become an issue in the near future.

The Sim Scene is taken more serious and is now recognised as a business platform by many marketeers out there. While that is ultimately a good thing, it will change the way the established companies look at our little niche community. The bigger the market becomes, the more opportunities it will create for marketing. These opportunities will generate a bigger competition. If Sim Racing and the commercial world get even closer, there might be no room left for ” tolerated art” such as modding. Sim Racing livery services such as used in LFS and the “Trading Paints” project for iRacing might become a topic of discussion soon. Fingers crossed.
 
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