No, we don't. Single payer is not the sole pathway to UHC.
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Pelosi declines to endorse Sen. Bernie Sanders' single-payer healthcare bill
- Thread starter KSweeley
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TheLostBigBoss
Banned
For all the shit the left gives the right for being uninformed idiots who follow propaganda, it sure is funny to see people say single payer is the same and/or the only path to universal health care because a populist persona is pushing it.
Have you not watched the Republican party at all the last few years? I don't understand how you can still have this view. Like, they have complete control of the branches and cannot get it done? Yet you still feel they would totally replace it with something even MORE liberal as long as it replaces Obamacare?
I don't understand mentally how they manage to project that image of themselves onto the populace while doing EVERYTHING in real life to counter it. Its like nothing they actually do sticks.
They have verbally said, and acted to do the exact opposite and still you believe in them being on board for something more liberal.
How loud must they shout and how visceral of an action must they take before you get it?
This is amazing to me. Super jealous that we can't manage to somehow do this on the left.
Aaronrules380
Member
It turns out if there's one thing both sides are relatively equal in, it's the amount of fools and idiots
I mean, given how much disinformation and outright lies there have from centrists regarding costing and other matters of leftist policy, I always find "reframing" to be a bit disgusting since it requires active dismissal of the facts more often than not in order to simply fearmonger. Like that shitty vox graph that lied about costing for Bernie's plans via taxes in the primary. Or how both centrists and Tories teamed up to spread lies about Corbyn's plans which were actually vetted.
Aaronrules380
Member
It's going to be reframed no matter what we do
E-Cat
Member
Of course the framing affects the outcome: "Hey, do you support this godless communist librul plan to take away your freedom to choose" has a different tone to it than "does every citizen in need have the right to guaranteed treatment"?
The variations in the level of support can be chalked up to herd mentality bypassing the consideration of how you really feel about the issue due to the perception of playing into the hands of the "other team".
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
So Pelosi clarifies she supports single payer and isn't opposed to the bill due to it's potential content. She's just saying, "not now, we need to protect the ACA, first" which while that's 100% true, it would have been optically better to throw in her general support for the push for this upcoming single-payer bill, which has wide support across the party.
People acting like this is a "rift" in the Democratic Party need to calm down. I think Pelosi saw that takeaway coming, which is why she pre-emptively stated that she supports single-payer still.
It seems the Democratic Party is all on board for single-payer, and now it's hashing out how to get there as a party.
People acting like this is a "rift" in the Democratic Party need to calm down. I think Pelosi saw that takeaway coming, which is why she pre-emptively stated that she supports single-payer still.
It seems the Democratic Party is all on board for single-payer, and now it's hashing out how to get there as a party.
E-Cat
Member
It sounds like a clear mandate to me. It is a shocking level of support at this juncture, really. Consider how the popularity of legalizing gay marriage didn't really explode until after the fact. The same will happen here.
By Republicans yes. Centrists should know better than to hand them a talking point filled with lies.
Cbajd5
Member
I'm incredibly naive regardless for wanting everyone to have health insurance in America, so call me Pollyanna.
(I doubt it for the Republicans in congress, but they did literally try to replace it with nothing just to get rid of it. I'm convinced Trump would support anything that would get rid of Obama's legacy though, he really really hates Obama.)
Well I don't think the democrats have tried to get rid of Obamacare, so I can't say for sure what Republicans would do if they tried to get rid of it and replace it with something more liberal. I just believe they're on board with destroying anything Obama did at a most basic level.
VendettaRed07
Member
I like it how despite cosponsoring and working on this with about a dozen other big name democrats in the senate people are still saying this.
Apparently when he does work with the party and ask for others input it's still not good enough. He's still somehow a madman going it alone.
I look forward to people who are shitting on him pushing this now praising the people who cosponsored it and giving them credit for doing so in 2020
eBay Huckster
Member
I hate that this thread turned into "let's shit on Sanders for proposing this bill" and not "let's shit on the complete imbeciles shitting on Pelosi for not partaking in a symbolic gesture that she is already on record as supporting"
GAF just loves to shit on Bernie. Guy will never catch a break. Its especially funny because Harris/Booker/Warren were praised for supporting him, but when Pelosi doesn't, its somehow Bernie's fault for existing?
VendettaRed07
Member
Shitting on Pelosi for this is dumb. Shitting on Bernie for pushing this is also dumb. Too many can't seem to check their hurt feelings I guess
boiled goose
good with gravy
Polls extremely well with her base. Doesn't endorse it.
Why?
Money money money! Money!
Why?
Money money money! Money!
Zap Rowsdower
Banned
Nearly a million people are going to be deported if legislation isn't made ASAP, now is not the time for pushing bills that are currently pipe dreams when people's lives are at stake here.
Nah, she actually understands how legislation works, unlike you.
Mango Positive
Member
It's also funny to see proponents of this point of view fail to communicate why they are wrong.
i meant more with regard to the bill itself. I'm seeing lots of activists saying call your democratic senator and tell them to support this bill. Like, nothing is going to happen, so is the point just to call out senators that dont support it?
VendettaRed07
Member
He announced he was going to introduce this well before Trump announced he was going to end DACA. Whether or not he pushes this bill will have no impact on the parties coming to an agreement on a dreamers bill. Which likely isn't going to be able to happen until December as part of the debt ceiling anyway. So there's no reason why they can't push this now.
Aaronrules380
Member
She has literally said she personally supports single payer and is refusing to endorse it because it would force the hands of other reps for a bill that everybody knows won't pass anyways. If you think she's taking this stance because someone is paying her off to not support a bill anyone with half a brain can see is DOA then I don't know what to say really
Oh those dems, and Sanders himself can certainly earn praise for doing other things worthy of said praise. But if you are expecting the people who look at this empty gesture of a bill and call it what it is; to suddenly cheer for said empty gesture bill at some point in the future, don't hold your breath. This "for show" garbage will always be bottom tier politics that only impresses a small amount of people.
It's not surprising to me either, that some dems are on board for that cheap shit. They certainly aren't perfect. You are speaking like said dems are above reproach and that they have some magical approval and only Bernie can be criticized. They can get it too.
To make this absolutely clear:
This is what I dislike about this. It wouldnt matter who it came from. "But Im doing it even though it has no chance of passing because it might be symbolic and might start a conversation and stuffs".
Sorry no. Im not a fan of that. The republicans did that nonsense for years against Obamacare over and over. I hated it then, never had any chance of passing and was just theatre. Except back then, magically everyone disapproved. Now all of a sudden its okay if it comes from the left apparently.
jack_package_200
Banned
No but she is a corporate neoliberal shill
eBay Huckster
Member
She literally voted for the House bill that included the public option, as did the overwhelming majority of the Democratic representatives who are still in office
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll887.xml
But sure she's just a Corporate Neoliberal Shill
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Which is why I suppose people have a problem with Bernie doing this now. Pushes his supporters away from the Dems who don't endorse the bill, and fanning the flames of the 'establishment Dems aren't real progressives' narrative. Meanwhile Pelosi can't endorse it because she's got to be flexible up to the time there's a unanimous agreement on what the party is gonna be running on, so she's taking hits for this.
But I get that he wants to get a conversation going, perhaps playing the long game of getting his supporters to notice the names of the people endorsing. I guess with the climate being what it is everyone is at eachother's throats though, and it's not particularly helpful.
I really am torn on the strategy.
It seems, reading Politico's article today about the Democratic party, that most of us (correctly) believe that these promises are empty and without foresight.
However... We just saw the power of thoughtless populism. It would seem, at least from the data, that Republicans are more likely to believe the impossible than Democrats are. I was in the 'promise these fucking idiots the moon and they'll vote for you camp' (i.e. UHC and free college), but apparently it doesn't seem to be as effective as it is with the right? If that's really true, I have no idea what direction the party should go in. Big problem and there isn't much time to fix it.
Aaronrules380
Member
she's also a big part of why that bill passed in the house, even if it fell through in the senate
Roberto Larcos
Member
This, in a nutshell.
Look at the Republican strategy while Obama was in the White House - introducing lots of legislation, getting it in front of Obama, and forcing him to say 'no'. When election season rolled around, their base was energised, and the public knew what they stood for.
A bill like this doesn't need to have a chance of passing for it to be of use.
Zap Rowsdower
Banned
You need to combat gerrymandering, its what really keeps the Republicans in power, propaganda empire aside.
Aaronrules380
Member
Except you know, congress is only in session for a limited amount of time so any time spent on stuff like this is time not spent on stuff that actually matters and can be realistically achieved
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean we both saw and are seeing the effects of thoughtless populism. The Republicans have power...and very little ability to do anything with it. I'm not saying single payer is impossible, far from it, but the version of single payer that's fueled by a wave of thoughtless populism (i.e "we'll worry about the taxes later") kind of is?
How are you going to get anything to Trump's desk? Literally it will be at least 2020 before that is an option. Hopefully by then Trump is gone.
badcrumble
Member
weak tea centrists stay mad
if we can find trillions of dollars for eternal war we can probably find a fraction of that for peoples health
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
The first page has posts on what single payer and universal healthcare is, and people who confuse the two.
Right, so they need to win seats now.
They may not be able to pass their agenda (whatever it is), but they need to win seats to prevent further gerrymandering.
So, promise the sun the moon and the sky. They need seats.
Read above. Legislative victories should take a backseat right now, strategically, because none of that will matter if they're redistricted out of existence.
badcrumble
Member
See also people who confuse having healthcare with having access to healthcare.
Angelus Errare
Banned
ITT: People confuse single payer and UHC
Roberto Larcos
Member
It won't get to his desk, but it will still get airtime. The getting to the desk part wasn't really the crux of the strategy.
This has been their problem since the Bush years easily(either one really), the GOP can completely deregulate the economy but it's a multi year struggle for Dems to get healthcare going and is still going.
They need to fight and push hard against our current leadership.
You really need to temper the desire to look to the Republican party's antics as a roadmap for how Liberals need to blueprint their actions going forward... Im serious.
Republicans had a majority in many branches for a lot of that time they were doing that; a humongous sect of their party was ALREADY energized because Obama was Black and began speaking out for issues affecting Black Americans, Republicans were sidecarred by a propaganda network with extremely high ratings pushing a abhorrent agenda alongside Obama's entire presidency.
Our position is not their position, Our party is not their party. You cannot accurately predict the actions of Democratic voters in this country by looking at what the Far Right did during the presidency of the first Black President of the U.S. All of this is completely beside whether or not looking to the far right for strategy is even something one should ever aspire to as a Liberal anyway.
legacyzero
Banned
Merkley and Shaheen just jumped on board
https://twitter.com/senjeffmerkley/status/907999680457527297
https://twitter.com/senatorshaheen/status/908011895868858371
Also, Stay shook, Pharma-
https://theintercept.com/2017/09/13...and-embrace-bernie-sanders-single-payer-plan/
https://twitter.com/senjeffmerkley/status/907999680457527297
https://twitter.com/senatorshaheen/status/908011895868858371
Also, Stay shook, Pharma-
https://theintercept.com/2017/09/13...and-embrace-bernie-sanders-single-payer-plan/
Aaronrules380
Member
I'm skeptical of how much this type of move will actually help in the elections, and regardless Pelosi's decision was also motivated by not compromising certain seats by forcing them to vote on party lines
Argument by "whatever."
Single payer healthcare is not an ideology its a policy
Also proposing bills that have 0 chance of passing doesnt stop people from starving or dying, not sure what your point is
We didnt find the trillions of dollars. Not sure what youre talking about.
Also a new healthcare system does not = peoples health is now good. It could implode or be flawed just like ACA and end up useless or even costing lives. Spending money on healthcare doesnt automatically mean healthcare gets fixed. Even the right system could be poorly implemented.
The ideology is there, the point is that this is terrible in a practical sense, especially timing wise.
I've heard that one of the main GOP attacks on this is going to be telling people dems are going to destroy the VA and medicare part D...by implementing medicare for all. do these people even hear their own voices?
No wonder they thought they could pass repeal of obamacare without the groundswell of pushback they got. This isn't like obamacare's debate in 2009-2010, people actually recognize now the importance of healthcare and the need for a dependable system(in part thanks to the incompetence and idiocy of the GOP at attempting to take away insurance) and considering how popular medicare is, that seems like a pretty easy sell for anyone who even bothers to try and argue the point.
How bout this...every time the GOP argue for trillions of dollars in tax cuts and a bloated military budget and corporate welfare subsidies, argue back healthcare for all with only a small portion of the money the tax cuts alone would take per year.
No wonder they thought they could pass repeal of obamacare without the groundswell of pushback they got. This isn't like obamacare's debate in 2009-2010, people actually recognize now the importance of healthcare and the need for a dependable system(in part thanks to the incompetence and idiocy of the GOP at attempting to take away insurance) and considering how popular medicare is, that seems like a pretty easy sell for anyone who even bothers to try and argue the point.
How bout this...every time the GOP argue for trillions of dollars in tax cuts and a bloated military budget and corporate welfare subsidies, argue back healthcare for all with only a small portion of the money the tax cuts alone would take per year.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Father_Brain
Banned
This Vox article outlines numerous compromises he made from the Conyers bill to get to the current level of support, but of course that won't persuade the usual suspects who keep smearing him as a rigid ideologue who refuses to compromise on anything.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
"Incrementally going nowhere" as opposed to also not going anywhere with impossible-to-pass bills.
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