Support NeoGAF

[legacyzero]

Let's just sit on our hands because we might screw it up or upset donors. Vote democrats 2018!

I'm not always the first to jump on the "corporate shill!" Train. I do it a lot, sure, but when even Cory Fucking Booker, who looks like the biggest Pharma shill on the Hill, you know it's a hard argument to use. But with Pelosi, to me- it's about action. And her stance right now is pure inaction.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I'm not always the first to jump on the "corporate shill!" Train. I do it a lot, sure, but when even Cory Fucking Booker, who looks like the biggest Pharma shill on the Hill, you know it's a hard argument to use. But with Pelosi, to me- it's about action. And her stance right now is pure inaction.

People like you need to understand that Pelosi's position is entirely different to the typical democratic congressman because she's minority leader

 

[Netherscourge]

Don't forget - Pelosi was #teamHillary

This might be a case of BernieBros vs. PelosiGals infighting.

 

[Aaronrules380]

This Vox article outlines numerous compromises he made from the Conyers bill to get to the current level of support, but of course that won't persuade the usual suspects who keep smearing him as a rigid ideologue who refuses to compromise on anything.

It literally does not matter what compromises he made on this bill because he knew from the start that this had no chance of passing regardless of that. Compromises made on a bill everyone knows is impossible regardless aren't exactly meaningful indicators of anything

 

[Angry Grimace]

She's right not to support the bill. Democrats should be protecting Obamacare and trying to reverse GOP spin that it's "failing," not wasting time on pie-in-the-sky impossible to pass bills that don't really do anything but appeal to the type of democrat who thinks "moderate" is a dirty word.

 

[Rentahamster]

It literally does not matter what compromises he made on this bill because he knew from the start that this had no chance of passing regardless of that. Compromises made on a bill everyone knows is impossible regardless aren't exactly meaningful indicators of anything

This "it won't pass anyway so why bother trying lol" attitude is roadblock for progress, ya know.

 

[badcrumble]

This "it won't pass anyway so why bother trying lol" attitude is roadblock for progress, ya know.

For real. I'm glad these people were just the followers, not the leaders, in the fight for gay marriage.

 

[Aaronrules380]

This "it won't pass anyway so why bother trying lol" attitude is roadblock for progress, ya know.

Please tell me a viable way to pass single payer healthcare in a congress where republicans hold a majority of both houses? Like give me the actual path to victory, name me the republicans who we could possibly and realistically get to vote yes on such a bill

Single Payer isn't impossible in general, but it's absolutely impossible right now and everyone in washington knows it, including Bernie

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Don't forget - Pelosi was #teamHillary

This might be a case of BernieBros vs. PelosiGals infighting.

Any look at the situation beyond reading thread titles will tell you this isn't the case, ESPECIALLY with major Clinton supporters also backing the bill.

This is an issue on whether Pelosi thinks the time is now. She doesn't, many others do.

 

[Angry Grimace]

This "it won't pass anyway so why bother trying lol" attitude is roadblock for progress, ya know.

That isn't exactly the problem. The problem is that the GOP was 2 votes away from repealing Obamacare so coming back with a far more ambitious and controversial plan doesn't make any sense.

The argument shouldn't be "Obamacare failed because it wasn't a left-wing enough strategy," it should be "Obamacare didn't fail."

 

[Armaros]

For real. I'm glad these people were just the followers, not the leaders, in the fight for gay marriage.

So that includes Bernie too? Or are we still parading the fiction that he wasn't doing the same song and dance as everyone else on gay marriage?

 

[Kyzer]

This "it won't pass anyway so why bother trying lol" attitude is roadblock for progress, ya know.

No, actually this "lets argue about this thing that wont pass anyways while ACA is dying and we are negotiating with republicans about the lives of dreamers" attitude is actually literally a roadblock for progress. Like right now, today.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Don't forget - Pelosi was #teamHillary

This might be a case of BernieBros vs. PelosiGals infighting.

Or it's a case of Pelosi has a different roll and job than your typical Congresswoman

 

[Aaronrules380]

Any look at the situation beyond reading thread titles will tell you this isn't the case, ESPECIALLY with major Clinton supporters also backing the bill.

This is an issue on whether Pelosi thinks the time is now. She doesn't, many others do.

Nobody thinks the time is now, everyone knows this bill is DOA. This whole thing is purely political pageantry, and as house minority leader Pelosi really can't afford to take part in such things

 

[ErasureAcer]

No one posted a stream?

https://www.clickondetroit.com/live...nference-on-single-payer-health-care-proposal

 

[pigeon]

It literally does not matter what compromises he made on this bill because he knew from the start that this had no chance of passing regardless of that. Compromises made on a bill everyone knows is impossible regardless aren't exactly meaningful indicators of anything

No, that's not correct. Those compromises meant the difference between a bill with no Democratic cosponsors and a bill with 16. That's a very important difference, both for the bill and for the party.

Bernie did a really good job of finding the right compromises and negotiating effectively. He's doing a great job in Democratic leadership. If he keeps this up he could envision a presidential nomination run in his future, to be honest.

 

[Father_Brain]

Please tell me a viable way to pass single payer healthcare in a congress where republicans hold a majority of both houses? Like give me the actual path to victory, name me the republicans who we could possibly and realistically get to vote yes on such a bill

Single Payer isn't impossible in general, but it's absolutely impossible right now and everyone in washington knows it, including Bernie

...do you seriously think that anyone involved with this expects or intends for it to pass a GOP Congress? That's not even remotely the point.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Nobody thinks the time is now, everyone knows this bill is DOA. This whole thing is purely political pageantry, and as house minority leader Pelosi really can't afford to take part in such things

Fair point. I was not speaking directly on passing the bill, I meant mainly shoving this conversation/idea to the forefront.

But I get Pelosi's rationale.

 

[Aaronrules380]

No, that's not correct. Those compromises meant the difference between a bill with no Democratic cosponsors and a bill with 16. That's a very important difference, both for the bill and for the party.

Bernie did a really good job of finding the right compromises and negotiating effectively. He's doing a great job in Democratic leadership. If he keeps this up he could envision a presidential nomination run in his future, to be honest.

I meant more in terms of defining how Bernie would act on a more meaningful vote, but you do have a point

 

[Ferrio]

This "it won't pass anyway so why bother trying lol" attitude is roadblock for progress, ya know.

So Dem's own repeal Obamacare? We gave them shit endlessly for trying to pass a bill that had no chance instead of actually getting stuff done, are we not going to hold ourselves up to that same standard?

I'm okay with them trying this, it shows where they stand on the issue but hopefully they don't keep coming back to it and wasting everyone's time like the GOP did with repeal.

 

[Aaronrules380]

...do you seriously think that anyone involved with this expects or intends for it to pass a GOP Congress? That's not even remotely the point.

Of course not. That's my point. The people who are acting like Pelosi's decision has any effect on actual progress are delusional

 

[badcrumble]

So that includes Bernie too? Or are we still parading the fiction that he wasn't doing the same song and dance as everyone else on gay marriage?

Why on earth wouldn't it include him? He was on the wrong side of history about that issue for ages, just like a lot of the Democratic party back then and the entire Republican party to this day.

 

[excelsiorlef]

But in our interview, Sanders emphasized that he will not go after Senate Democrats who won’t sign on to the bill — an indication that he wants to leave the door open for them.
...

But Sanders himself is making clear that he himself does not want to alienate them.

“Am I going to go around and attack people who do not support my proposal? I don't do that, and I'm not going to do that,” he told me. “People have to make their own assessments, and the electorate decides the course of action in terms of elections. But I'm not going to be criticizing people.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/13/16296390/bernie-sanders-democratic-single-payer

 

[badcrumble]

We didnt find the trillions of dollars. Not sure what youre talking about.

[chart from mises dot org of all places lmfao]

Begone, libertarian. It's okay to have a national debt and it's largely just used as a rhetorical weapon by out-of-power political parties against whichever one is in power.

 

[Ekai]

"Incrementally going nowhere" as opposed to also not going anywhere with impossible-to-pass bills.

I'd prefer instilling democratic and progressive principles into the populace than going nowhere to continually appease centrists/right-wingers who we have to "compromise" with.

 

[eBay Huckster]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/13/16296390/bernie-sanders-democratic-single-payer

Weird and fucked up how the only people who seem to have any issues, then, are the people who can't help but relitigate shit from either side in every thread about anyone in the Democratic Party regardless of whether it's actually remotely warranted

 

[Netherscourge]

Is it possible Pelosi is playing 12D Chess here?

Maybe she thinks if she shows public disdain for something, it'll unite the Republicans in favor of it and it might actually pass?

Trump would sign it just to say he got rid of ACA for no other reason than to keep a stupid campaign promise. He probably won't even read the damn bill.

And the Republicans pick up some brownie points with moderates.

While the Dems say, "Hey look - we got something accomplished without a majority at any level."

 

[Aaronrules380]

Is it possible Pelosi is playing 12D Chess here?

Maybe she thinks if she shows public disdain for something, it'll unite the Republicans in favor of it and it might actually pass?

Trump would sign it just to say he got rid of ACA for no other reason than to keep a stupid campaign promise. He probably won't even read the damn bill.

And the Republicans pick up some brownie points with moderates.

While the Dems say, "Hey look - we got something accomplished without a majority at any level."

This isn't passing under any circumstances with the current congress. Pelosi's stance has more to do with not forcing the hands of other democrats who might be put in precarious positions during the mid terms because of it than anything else

 

[Kyzer]

Begone, libertarian. It's okay to have a national debt and it's largely just used as a rhetorical weapon by out-of-power political parties against whichever one is in power.

LMFAO. First of all, youre talking to a Hillary supporter. Secondly, I just chose a random chart. Do you doubt we are in debt? Third, libertarians are fiscal conservatives, what the fuck are you even talking about? Fourth, are you trying to ascrube debt spending as a democratic principle? Youre wrong on like every level breezy

 

[harriet the spy]

When Sanders wants to pass single payer, is it true single payer (like in the UK and at least Quebec- not sure about the rest of Canada ), or is it a semi single payer like most of Europe ?
Is passing something similar to a continental Europe HC system not an easier sell ?

 

[Rentahamster]

Please tell me a viable way to pass single payer healthcare in a congress where republicans hold a majority of both houses? Like give me the actual path to victory, name me the republicans who we could possibly and realistically get to vote yes on such a bill

Single Payer isn't impossible in general, but it's absolutely impossible right now and everyone in washington knows it, including Bernie

The perceived impossibility of an idea shouldn't exclude good ideas from being discussed in our great hall of elected politicians whose job it is to discuss things.

No, actually this "lets argue about this thing that wont pass anyways while ACA is dying and we are negotiating with republicans about the lives of dreamers" attitude is actually literally a roadblock for progress. Like right now, today.

Then stop arguing? "Hey guys, nice bill, I support it as a future vision of America! *thumbs up*, gee that was easy, now let's also make sure Obamacare isn't ruined too". Unless you think that the more media exposure this medicare for all bill gets, the worse off Obamacare's chances get? That doesn't scan.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Is it possible Pelosi is playing 12D Chess here?

Maybe she thinks if she shows public disdain for something, it'll unite the Republicans in favor of it and it might actually pass?

Trump would sign it just to say he got rid of ACA for no other reason than to keep a stupid campaign promise. He probably won't even read the damn bill.

And the Republicans pick up some brownie points with moderates.

While the Dems say, "Hey look - we got something accomplished without a majority at any level."

No. This isn't passing.

 

[Kyzer]

The perceived impossibility of an idea shouldn't exclude good ideas from being discussed in our great hall of elected politicians whose job it is to discuss things.



Then stop arguing? "Hey guys, nice bill, I support it as a future vision of America! *thumbs up*, gee that was easy, now let's also make sure Obamacare isn't ruined too". Unless you think that the more media exposure this medicare for all bill gets, the worse off Obamacare's chances get? That doesn't scan.

It doesn't matter if we argue on neogaf lol, its the arguing between politicians that matters. And yes the more you push or pull during negotiations can affect the outcome. They are currently negotiating DACA and fighting off the repeal of obamacare.

 

[Ahgod]

I'd prefer instilling democratic and progressive principles into the populace than going nowhere to continually appease centrists/right-wingers who we have to "compromise" with.

Thank you! Yes! I can't tell you how often this stuff comes up and people say this about every issue and they deem the ultimate goal too radical, meanwhile people are hurt and all the appeasements result in absolutely nothing.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Thank you! Yes! I can't tell you how often this stuff comes up and people say this about every issue and they deem the ultimate goal too radical, meanwhile people are hurt and all the appeasements result in absolutely nothing.

that literally isn't what's happening here, but okay

 

[zelas]

This "it won't pass anyway so why bother trying lol" attitude is roadblock for progress, ya know.

So in an extremely important midterm cycle where Dems are using Obamacare to attack republicans, you want them to turn their back on it and support the republican narrative that the Dems produce failures as solutions. All for something that AT BEST fails to pass while also letting them out of their corner and giving them midterm campain ammo. All for a moral victory?

Some of you guys are underestimating just how easily the Republicans can manipulate key blocks of the electorate. How the fucks are Dems holding office in red states suppose to sell this??? We can't afford to ignore red seats to blindly push a liberal agenda right now.

I'd prefer instilling democratic and progressive principles into the populace than going nowhere to continually appease centrists/right-wingers who we have to "compromise" with.

Nah, you'd actually be going backwards, continuing to bleed seats and votes in states that aren't blue strongholds. We need more than just CA.

 

[Maxim726X]

So in an extremely important midterm cycle where Dems are using Obamacare to attack republicans, you want them to turn their back on it and support the republican narrative that the Dems produce failures as solutions. All for something that AT BEST fails to pass while also letting them out of their corner and giving them midterm campain ammo. All for a moral victory?

Some of you guys are underestimating just how easily the Republicans can manipulate key blocks of the electorate. How the fucks are Dems holding office in red states suppose to sell this??? We can't afford to ignore red seats to blindly push a liberal agenda right now.



Nah, you'd actually be going backwards, continuing to bleed seats and votes in states that aren't blue strongholds. We need more than just CA.

I don't think many people are aware how dire the map looks in 2018... The party would be lucky not to lose more seats. Shit, I'd be happy if they held serve.

Apparently, the data says that these ideas actually aren't going to excite the base and aren't going to do much to move the needle. We'll have to see.

 

[Rentahamster]

It doesn't matter if we argue on neogaf lol, its the arguing between politicians that matters. And yes the more you push or pull during negotiations can affect the outcome. They are currently negotiating DACA and fighting off the repeal of obamacare.

I am talking about the politicians.

 

[RedZaraki]

Or it's a case of Pelosi has a different roll and job than your typical Congresswoman

She shouldn't. She's been a pretty damn poor leader of the party, all things considered.

 

[eBay Huckster]

She shouldn't. She's been a pretty damn poor leader of the party, all things considered.

you deserve Tim Ryan if you think her leadership's been outright bad lmao

 

[Aaronrules380]

She shouldn't. She's been a pretty damn poor leader of the party, all things considered.

A party leader who ignores their position and acts like any other member of congress would be an awful party leader

 

[TheContact]

Why not?

It leans more toward socialism and democrats are not socialists for the most part.

 

[y2dvd]

Public Option

Can you send me any links selling the public option? I googled public option vs single payer and the results were heavily in favor of the latter. I would like to understand the appeal to public option more.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Can you send me any links selling the public option? I googled public option vs single payer and the results were heavily in favor of the latter. I would like to understand the appeal to public option more.

I mean for one thing it's far more likely to actually pass and there's a lot less barriers to implementation

 

[ModBot]

There's a new thread for the actual bill, which I'm sure is what everyone's truly interested in discussing: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1432679