• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Penn State football pedophilia thread (UPDATE: NCAA sanctions handed down)

Status
Not open for further replies.

thefro

Member
Dude Abides said:
Reported and quickly "forgotten," with kiddie diddler hanging around until last week and bringing a kid to practice in 2007. Clearly JoePa is being thrown under the bus in a media frenzy! I bet Ohio State is behind it.

Agreed, if Joe Pa said to the admin that he didn't want Sandusky around, he'd be gone in 2 seconds. He ran the university.

He could have told any of the state policemen he's friends with what the GA saw and they would have investigated it in 2 seconds. He ran State College.

The only thing that makes any sense is that Sandusky has some kind of dirt on Paterno.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
The fact that this is true is so utterly fucked up as to defy description. Scorched earth on this shit. College Sports is a cesspit.


I know, man. I ask people to go read the charges, find out exactly went down, and then see if they are so quick to defend anyone in this mess. If they got rid of Penn State Football alltogether, I would be fine with it.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Hari Seldon said:
What should Penn State have done if the authorities determined there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute? They already forced him to resign. Presumably they gave him the benefits like an office so that if he was not guilty, they could avoid a controversy of firing him since he was still seen as having good relations with the university.

Basically, I don't see how Penn State did anything wrong until McQueary eye-witness saw him in 2002.

When the football coach at a high school learned from a mother that there were allegations he referred it to police, and Sandusky was banned. Nothing came of that police investigation, and yet Sandusky was real-banned, not pretend-banned.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
Ourobolus said:
Pff, I lived in all three when I was there. Campus, Allen St, and Aaron Dr. WHAT

I've been in Sandusky's basement.
 

Salaadin

Member
Schmitty said:
Penn State Campus is zip code 16802 and State College is 16801, each with their own police force. Shultz was head of campus police at the time which is who JoePa told.
I thought Paterno told Curley and Curley told Schulz. Schulz and Curley then met a a few days later, said that proper action would be taken and then thats where it stopped.

I think the biggest problem people have with Paterno is that he didnt tell police. He told his boss and then assumed it would be handled and then didnt follow up with it when he saw that it wasnt really handled at all.
And as much as I love JoePa, I have to say that theyre right.
 

Brendonia

"Edge stole Big Ben's helmet"
BigAT said:
I appreciate the clarification. Haven't most of the reports though said that the VP of PSU (or President, I can't remember at the moment) had control over the police force? Wouldn't that indicate it was campus police as opposed to the police of the municipality/town? Or are they the same thing?

In my mind it's kind of confusing because of the names of the towns. State College, PA is the town surrounding the University. The school is actually in University Park, PA. The University Police = campus police (group overseen by the VP Schultz) and have full jurisdiction and police power over all areas on campus and within 500 yards of campus. That was my understanding from prior knowledge and from what I read on that website.

Luckily I never really had to deal with either when I was there, so I can't comment on their effectiveness.

Edit: Beaten to the punch. Nice job guys. Also on campus, Beaver Ave, and Gill St. represent!
 

dojokun

Banned
Why was the grad assistant/eyewitness not charged with failure to report? He should have gone to the police, not Joe Pa.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
The fact that this is true is so utterly fucked up as to defy description. Scorched earth on this shit. College Sports is a cesspit.

I don't even know where to begin about how stupid this statement is.

dojokun said:
Why was the grad assistant/eyewitness not charged with failure to report? He should have gone to the police, not Joe Pa.

He's not famous.
 
venne said:
I wouldn't say they should have done more in '98, but I think the knowledge of the events in '98 make '02 a much more grand fuck up.

Didn't they (or at least JoePa) ask Sandusky to step down after the 98 allegations? If so then it would seem that they had enough evidence to be concerned about what he was doing. So why not ban him from campus? Even after the 02 allegation they didn't even ban him from campus. They just told him that he was no longer allowed to bring kids from his Second Mile program to the campus. There's a report that he was there as recently as last week and that he even has an office on campus. This despite him being accused of molesting children in two separate incidents.
 
samus i am said:
I don't even know where to begin about how stupid this statement is.

I guess you haven't been keeping up with the insane amount of scandals that have popped up over the last few years involving college football.
 
LegendofJoe said:
I guess you haven't been keeping up with the insane amount of scandals that have popped up over the last few years involving college football.

So your conclusion is that all of college football should be dissolved? Does that really make any sense?
 

Brendonia

"Edge stole Big Ben's helmet"
This is a HUGE wall of text, but was posted on a PSU football board I go to for info. It was posted by someone that I believe is a Clemson fan. It mostly confers how I feel about the situation, beyond the extreme sadness of being affiliated with it simply because I went to school there.

First let me say that I'm sure some will disagree. Let me also say that I have no real horse in this race, as I don't love or hate Penn State. However I do have some thoughts on this that I wanted to get out. This seemed the appropriate place.

Things that I don't understand
I have been reading reaction on this scandal for three days. I've read almost every thread on this board and a host of articles from elsewhere. Each and every talking head that I've heard is in favor of the entire thing being blown up. It's almost mob-like at this point.

There are lots of things that people are missing, though, at least in my opinion.

My first issue is with people filling in facts on their own. I've read the grand jury presentment. There is a lot of good information there, but there are many holes, too. What I've read is a lot of people filling in these holes on their own. I don't understand the rush to condemn. The facts will come out eventually. It seems pigheaded to base conclusions on your own set of facts when you have no idea whether or not those facts are true.

The second deals with the treatment of Mike McQueary. One of the biggest problems here is that each and every person passing judgment has the benefit of a 23-page grand jury presentment. They have the benefit of 10 years of evidence. They have the benefit of hindsight. They have the benefit of acting outside of the moment.

Mike McQueary had none of that. No one wakes up in the morning and says, "What will I do today if I find someone that I respect having sex with a 10-year old boy?" This isn't at all similar to being a second baseman and preparing yourself for if the ball is hit your way. McQueary doesn't have the benefit of knowing that Jerry Sandusky is a lifelong pervert. It seems to me that people have lost all ability to judge his actions in context. They're looking at him from the outside and not even attempting to put themselves in the exact position he found himself in.

Likewise, I think people, being obsessed with this story for the last three days, are going crazy on what McQueary was supposed to do. So what did he do? He consulted with someone he trusted (his dad). He then told his immediate boss. He also told two superiors, in detail, what he saw. In all, the guy told 4 people, three of them being in his direct chain of command. When McQueary left the meeting with your AD and Schultz, I have little doubts that he was told, "We will look into it and take care of it." If I'm Mike McQueary, I'm not going to be a vigilante. I have a career, bills, my health, my family, and 100 other things to think about on a day to day basis. I told a large number of people in power what I saw. They told me they'd deal with it. I'm trusting them to do so because, 1) I don't have time to be a vigilante for justice every day of my life - I'm not a cop and 2) this is how these things are handled.

It seems to me that the university is a different kind of place. The police force is under the control, at least partially, by the administration. This isn't like seeing a rape on the highway where the police are the only guys with power. This happened at the university. And McQueary approached three people in the university structure who he trusted to do the right thing.

Now, there's also the point that McQueary "left" the boy to be raped. This is what I'm talking about above with filling in the facts. What we do know is that both the boy and Sandusky saw Mike. What is more plausible? The two just look at him and Jerry gives him a wink and keeps going? Doubtful. More likely is that Jerry is spooked, tries to act like nothing is happening, and the act stops. Again, WE DON'T KNOW the details here. I'm offering an alternative that is at least as plausible as the one people seem to be believing. In order for Sandusky to get away with this for so long, he had to be calculated and careful. It seems highly unlikely that Sandusky would see McQueary and keep pounding away. I'm not sure how people are missing this.

As for what "you would have done," I've seen a lot of people talking about how they would have killed Sandusky, beaten his ***, or whatever. First, you don't know until you're in that position. As has been mentioned before, this type of thing has a crippling effect on people. It almost killed a war vet who has seen it all. Secondly, I don't know why anyone expects Mike McQueary to give up his freedom by committing a crime in response to a crime. This is a very strange view on situational ethics.

So should McQueary have called the police? Looking back, with 10 years of evidence, and knowing that Sandusky is a pervert? I would obviously say so. This would have been the quickest way to bring the police into play immediately. But things look differently when you have the benefit of an outside lens. When you're in the moment, things aren't nearly as easy. Why McQueary should be expected to act perfectly in a high-pressure, highly traumatic situation is beyond me. People rarely act perfectly in the best of conditions, much less in a stressful situation like that one.

It's important to keep in mind what McQueary did do. He DID tell four people. He did IMMEDIATELY alert his superiors. He did follow up with another meeting in which he gave great detail. He did cooperate with the grand jury.

It seems to me that people expect the average citizen to be the police. They expect someone in the position of Mike McQueary to take justice into his own hands and beat up a rapist. They expect Mike McQueary to march into the athletic director's office on a weekly basis to make sure the guy is doing his job. This is unrealistic. Mike McQueary has a life to live. "Hey, you're my boss, I know, but are you doing your job right now?" The answer McQueary is likely to get is, "We're taking care of it."

One of the most bizarre parts of all of this is that Sandusky seems to be getting a pass. I know that sounds odd, but it's almost true. The witch hunt is out in such force that the extraneous parties are bearing the burden. On the list of people I would heap blame on, the list is not linear. We don't live in a black and white world. Human beings and their ethics are complicated. It's possible to assign levels of blame all across the board, yet some people want to assign one type of blame to all involved. My chart would look like this:

Sandusky




Curley/Schulz/Janitor staff that didn't report a thing

University President

DA who chose not to prosecute Sandusky



Paterno
McQueary

Somewhere in there, we have to throw Sandusky's wife who probably ignored the signs (here we are making up facts again). We also have to throw in the victims of the crime, as they are to blame. If the first one goes to the police the next day, then this doesn't happen to others. Don't you see how complicated this gets? We should also remember that McQueary is, in an indirect way, a victim of this crime. He was minding his business, getting his work done, finishing up a long day, when he was exposed to a horrific, life-altering scene. Think about that before you pass such harsh, black and white judgment.


As for Paterno, this is where things get complicated without the facts. Do I think it is plausible that Mike McQueary, out of respect for an OLD man that he respects, didn't come out and say the words "*** rape"? I think that's entirely possible. If Joe got a watered down version of the facts, then I don't know what else he was supposed to do. He referred McQueary, the guy with the story, to the people in charge. McQueary apparently felt more comfortable giving details to those guys, and that makes sense to be honest.

This all changes quite obviously if Paterno knew a lot about the prior activities of Sandusky. But that hasn't been proven or strongly suggested even.

We also seem to be forgetting that Paterno didn't see anything. He wasn't a witness. What is he going to call the police and say? I heard from someone that something weird might have taken place in our showers. Looking back, the correct move was to refer McQueary to the police. "Mike, call the cops." But that's assuming that McQueary was completely up front about what he saw. If he didn't give Joe a ton of detail, then why would Joe immediately move to calling the police? It all hinges on the facts, which people have conveniently filled in for themselves.

Likewise, it is VERY easy to assume to that Joe had to know something after we have read a grand jury report. But again, try to look at things through the lens of the person involved. Joe had (apparently) no knowledge of anything in the report. Instead, he knew Sandusky as a trusted friend, coach, and a person who had the respect of the community. It's easy to see Sandusky as a monster now, but it was probably a little more unbelievable then. This again comes with the caveat that if Joe knew of Sandusky's past transgressions, then he is a lot harder to defend. Without knowing how long this has gone on, it's hard to say. Given Paterno's history, I give him the benefit of the doubt in this spot.

Likewise, I'm not sure why Paterno is expected to launch some investigation. He is not the police. He is a football coach who (it seems) received somewhat vague allegations of something that happened in his building. He didn't see it. There's also the fact that he passed things along to the next person up the chain who, presumably, would have more time and resources to handle the things appropriately. The fact that one of those superiors was at least partially in authority over the police department complicates matters here. Can this be described as going to the police? Weakly. But it does complicate matters. This wasn't a case where Paterno sat on his hands. It wasn't a case where he quietly told the AD to take care of it. This was a case where he told two of his direct superiors what he had been told. He also told McQueary to tell them the details.

Perfect move? No. Call the cops. In hindsight, that is the right move. But Joe wasn't a witness. And there's also the point that this is a university, where there is a structure. Even the police fits into that structure in a strange way. This is a strange case where the cops have the ability to arrest their direct superiors.

I have no defense for the idiots in the higher-reaches of the admin who sat on the information. I'm also struggling to find their motivation. My guess is that they believed that they could keep it quiet. They also believed that the damage from the public learning about the incident was too great to risk. This was a huge miscalculation on their part. They were far enough removed from the incident that they viewed the "victim" as more of a threat than an actual person. Then they lied about it. These guys are crummy and it's hard to view it any differently.

Doing what we need to do (viewing the incident through the past lens), it is hard to come up with any justification. Mike McQueary felt strongly enough about the incident that he climbed WAY up the food chain to report it. Paterno apparently had multiple meetings with them. My assumption is that both were told that it would be taken care of. Why they chose not to is no mystery. How two people so accomplished could make such an error in ethics, morals, and strategy is tough to imagine, though.

The last point that I've seen mentioned time and again is in regard to McQueary and how he could "see Sandusky" around the place without being appalled. We don't know how McQueary felt. Likewise, it seems that people are looking at this with the benefit of outside perspective. Had McQueary known that Sandusky was going on raping little boys, his actions probably would have been different. But six, seven, eight years later and you haven't heard or seen anything, it's easy to see where McQueary might think that it was an isolated incident. People make mistakes, right? Even horrible mistakes. I also doubt that Sandusky continued to bring little kids around McQueary.

It seems to me that people wanted McQueary to spend the last ten years of his life making sure that Sandusky was prison raped in Sing Sing. That's just not realistic, though. It's not a realistic expectation and it's not how things work.

A little bit of perspective and taking a moment to THINK without your emotions is needed by all involved in offering opinions here. Whether Penn State rids itself of these people is another story. There is a benefit to "starting over" after something like this. But without all of the information and with some of the assumptions that have been made, it seems like the criticisms are a bit unfair on some points.

Just my $.02.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
SolidSnakex said:
Didn't they (or at least JoePa) ask Sandusky to step down after the 98 allegations? If so then it would seem that they had enough evidence to be concerned about what he was doing. So why not ban him from campus? Even after the 02 allegation they didn't even ban him from campus. They just told him that he was no longer allowed to bring kids from his Second Mile program to the campus. There's a report that he was there as recently as last week and that he even has an office on campus. This despite him being accused of molesting children in two separate incidents.


Right, its just unreal what PSU allowed Sandusky to do, even after catching him in the act. Just shocking. He was bringing a kid he was abusing to PRACTICE IN 2007?!? How could Paterno or the GA see that and not do anything?
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Dude Abides said:
When the football coach at a high school learned from a mother that there were allegations he referred it to police, and Sandusky was banned. Nothing came of that police investigation, and yet Sandusky was real-banned, not pretend-banned.

Ok. Well a University ostensibly has only people over the age of 18 (maybe a few 17 year olds). So they can be a little more liberal with the "innocent until proven guilty" paradigm for a pedophile than a high school can.
 

thefro

Member

Zep

Banned
dojokun said:
Why was the grad assistant/eyewitness not charged with failure to report? He should have gone to the police, not Joe Pa.

Because that's not the way you go about advancing your career.
 
JoePa knew all along, here's why I think so:

It's not like his assistant told him that a Chemistry teacher was doing these things. Go report it to a school official, never see said teacher again, and wonder a few years later whatever happened after reporting it.

He worked with the guy, everyday. Possibly had dinners with him, hung out, etc. If your coworker was accused of rape and you "reported him", could you look him in the eye the next day? Work side-by-side for 8-12 hours a day no less? Would it not gnaw on you, wondering if the eyewitness account was true? Could you bury such a thing for 10 years and just not know?

He knew. They all did. That's why it's do easy. Up until a few days ago, everything was going as they planned it ...
 
samus i am said:
I don't even know where to begin about how stupid this statement is.



He's not famous


There is nothing stupid about that statement. Penn State needs to go scorched earth if they want to keep any respectability at all in this. I would never send my kid to athletic program that harbors child rapists. FOR A DECADE!!!

The fact that the president of Penn State stood by his guys in the way he did, gives you a window into the mindset of college level sports athletic programs. Whether you want to believe it or not, college football is a cesspit.
 

KHarvey16

Member
You don't have a legal obligation to report unless you work directly with children. No one is being charged with failure to report as far as I know.

The President and Paterno will both be ousted at the very least. The board or whoever oversees the university will make sure of it, and they are right to do so.
 

WedgeX

Banned
Here is the mandated reporter law for PA, since I was interested previously.

The two different guidelines for what different mandated reporters have to legally do:

(a) General rule. Under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6311 (relating to persons required to report suspected child abuse), licensees who, in the course of the employment, occupation or practice of their profession, come into contact with children shall report or cause a report to be made to the Department of Public Welfare when they have reasonable cause to suspect on the basis of their professional or other training or experience, that a child coming before them in their professional or official capacity is a victim of child abuse.

(b) Staff members of public or private agencies, institutions and facilities. Licensees who are staff members of a medical or other public or private institution, school, facility or agency, and who, in the course of their employment, occupation or practice of their profession, come into contact with children shall immediately notify the person in charge of the institution, school facility or agency or the designated agent of the person in charge when they have reasonable cause to suspect on the basis of their professional or other training or experience, that a child coming before them in their professional or official capacity is a victim of child abuse. Upon notification by the licensee, the person in charge or the designated agent shall assume the responsibility and have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made in accordance with subsections (a), (c) and (d).
 
samus i am said:
So your conclusion is that all of college football should be dissolved? Does that really make any sense?

I am in agreement with what the conclusion I quoted said, that college football is a cesspit. My personal conclusion is that the sport needs a major institutional and organizational shakeup as soon as possible.
 

Zep

Banned
LegendofJoe said:
I am in agreement with the conclusion of the what the poster I quoted said, that college football is a cesspit. My personal conclusion is that the sport needs a major institutional and organizational shakeup as soon as possible.

Sorry, these new super-conferences will be too busy making billions.
 
Brendonia the only thing I saw in your post is that the Clemson fan was suggesting that the victims of the crime bear some blame for what happened to them.

Based on that one sentence, I deem the rest of that giant wall of text worthless. It could have the cure for cancer written somewhere in the text. It doesn't matter. It's still worthless.
 

Kosmo

Banned
bigtroyjon said:
Writer that covers PSU.

"Joe must go!"

I think the traditional whiteout at PSU games should be replaced by a blackout to support the kids who this monster abused (Sandusky, not JoePa).
 

rdrr gnr

Member
Kosmo said:
"Joe must go!"

I think the traditional whiteout at PSU games should be replaced by a blackout to support the kids who this monster abused (Sandusky, not JoePa).
LOL at your clarification.
 

Sanjuro

Member
There is video footage of Paterno refusing to help one of the victims.

TKp81.gif
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
tycoonheart said:
That is not going to end well at all.


Better than at Sandusky's house
 
Zep said:
Sorry, these new super-conferences will be too busy making billions.

Not if they continue to blatantly abuse laws and proper codes of ethics and conduct. Eventually, when people decide they've had enough it will catch up with the game. I've already hit that point myself and I doubt I'm the only one.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
samus i am said:
I don't even know where to begin about how stupid this statement is.



.


Well you should begin somewhere. The statement, "College Sports is a cesspit" makes sense to everyone on this forum except you. I could say that to my mom and she'd probably opine on some recruiting, grade inflation, dorm rape, insert your favorite scandal here.

It's a cesspit. Acting baffled just makes you seem like you had your grades inflated for you so you could catch a ball for two years.

Or maybe you think that a college sports team coach SHOULD be one of the most powerful person in the state?
 
Sirpopopop said:
Brendonia the only thing I saw in your post is that the Clemson fan was suggesting that the victims of the crime bear some blame for what happened to them.

Based on that one sentence, I deem the rest of that giant wall of text worthless. It could have the cure for cancer written somewhere in the text. It doesn't matter. It's still worthless.
I believe that he said that as a way to say that if you place blame on McQueary for not going to the police, you must also place blame on the victims for not stepping forward and ending the problem with them.

I actually read most of that rambling bullshit.

No. I do not need an outside perspective to know that I should go to the cops when I see a kid raped. Fucking hell.
 

Malleymal

You now belong to FMT.
They all knew about this... As soon a Joe pa breaks the winning record then all this comes out... I think that everyone needs to come down on the school just the way they are now. Poor kids
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
Well I skimmed through that report, not so good. You can't defend PSU or many of the top brass. It's too consistent to be false. Many of those kids described very similar habits that Jerry exhibited while around these kids.

There's nothing that I will read to convince me that head shouldn't roll for this. Joe Paterno did right to report things in to the AD. From there it should have been thoroughly investigated and not just dropped. Especially after it happened again on campus!

I know this will taint Joe's career and while should have been more morally involved, he did report things and the upper heads just didn't do anything really. We now have 9 boys. You better believe that there were more close calls and other advances that the now older abuse victims would be far to ashamed to admit.
 

Salaadin

Member
I cant believe that Sandusky still maintains his innocence. 1 boy, maybe he didnt do it. 2 is pushing it. 9? Youre guilty dude. Fess up and save everyone the trouble. Youve caused enough as it is.
I know, "innocent until proven guilty" and all that but come on.
 
LiquidMetal14 said:
We now have 9 boys. You better believe that there were more close calls and other advances that the now older abuse victims would be far to ashamed to admit.

I really hate this, damn that has to be torture.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Salaadin said:
I cant believe that Sandusky still maintains his innocence. 1 boy, maybe he didnt do it. 2 is pushing it. 9? Youre guilty dude. Fess up and save everyone the trouble. Youve caused enough as it is.
I know, "innocent until proven guilty" and all that but come on.


"These little boy I raped are monstrous liars"

If he had a shred of decency he'd just go to jail by himself.
 

pxleyes

Banned
Kosmo said:
"Joe must go!"

I think the traditional whiteout at PSU games should be replaced by a blackout to support the kids who this monster abused (Sandusky, not JoePa).
I like the idea even if they somehow clear house by Saturday. A blackout by the students in solidarity for the victims would be a powerful, redeeming message for the university.
 

C Jones

Member
pxleyes said:
I like the idea even if they somehow clear house by Saturday. A blackout by the students in solidarity for the victims would be a powerful, redeeming message for the university.
I heard there is something planned for Saturday. I think this was said in the student paper but I'm not sure.
 

Brendonia

"Edge stole Big Ben's helmet"
Sirpopopop said:
Brendonia the only thing I saw in your post is that the Clemson fan was suggesting that the victims of the crime bear some blame for what happened to them.

Based on that one sentence, I deem the rest of that giant wall of text worthless. It could have the cure for cancer written somewhere in the text. It doesn't matter. It's still worthless.

Yeah, that part was definitely one that I was referencing that I didn't agree with. Under no circumstances do I agree with that.
 
I think an evern better message would be for alumni and students to simply not attend the next game. My opinion is that you shouldn't financially support an athletic department that hides and supports a known pedophile for over a decade. I feel sorry for the kids playing who did nothing wrong, but not attending the game is the best message Penn State alumni and students can send if you ask me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom