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[Joe Shlabotnik]

You're reading pretty heavily into a situation in order to fit the narrative. All I'm saying here is this requires a good deal more investigation. I'm not buying that this is a removal worthy offense on his part.

The narrative is (correct me if I'm wrong):

2002 - McQueary tells Paterno he personally saw Sandusky rape a 10-year-old in the shower

2004 -> present - McQueary is WR coach, Sandusky has access to and use of the facilities

I don't mean to imply that McQueary was promoted for keeping his mouth shut--it's suspicious but it's definitely speculation. But can we at least agree that it's... concerning, morally speaking, that Paterno kept a working relationship going with both men? Again, either one guy lied in literally the worst way imaginable, or the other is a child rapist. This isn't your average case of he said / he said.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Legality and morality are NOT synonymous.

That's just an unfortunate reality of life. With that said. Dude that saw kid getting assaulted and just calmly walked away is a scumbag that deserves all the disdain and scorn the public can muster. As does all the administration involved with doing the bare-minimum legally required.

Not jail if they technically didn't break any law. Just scorn. Disgust. Like the scorn and disgust many gave those pedestrians in China that walked away from the little girl who got ran over. There's a question of what's wrong with society that needs to be asked. What's wrong with a school that would put their interest of protecting the integrity of grown men playing a children's game rather than the integrity of a child being sexually abused by a grown man.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Right. Let's just hope Joe can talk and speak his mind because he's not one to hide from things like this. He is being held back.

 

[schuelma]

Right. Let's just hope Joe can talk and speak his mind because he's not one to hide from things like this. He is being held back.

If Joe Pa actually gives a PC, he is going to get destroyed. I'll almost feel sorry for him.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

If Joe Pa actually gives a PC, he is going to get destroyed. I'll almost feel sorry for him.

From all the reports I read, he's not one to hide from things and it seems that way to me based on what I've known of him since I've followed NCAA football. I am leaning more on the side of him right now as he seems to be dragged into this like he's responsible and is making almost all the headlines outside of the children themselves.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

If Joe Pa actually gives a PC, he is going to get destroyed. I'll almost feel sorry for him.

I don't know about that. If what people here believe is true then maybe. But I wouldn't be surprised to see JoePa come out pissed and tell people he actually did follow up and was lead to believe it was investigated and that Sandusky was innocent. JoePa seems pissed. If that's the case you have to believe there's a reason he feels like he's being thrown under the bus.

 

[bigtroyjon]

You're reading pretty heavily into a situation in order to fit the narrative. All I'm saying here is this requires a good deal more investigation. I'm not buying that this is a removal worthy offense on his part.

I love how you keep harping on how this requires more investigation. There was a two year long investigation done with a grand jury. All the investigation is done. The facts are out there and you are free to look at them any time you want.

Paterno knew of multiple accusations of kid rape and had he acted in the best interest of children everywhere, he would have easily been able to stop future rapes.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

I love how you keep harping on how this requires more investigation. There was a two year long investigation done with a grand jury. All the investigation is done. The facts are out there and you are free to look at them any time you want.

Paterno knew of multiple accusations of kid rape and had he acted in the best interest of children everywhere, he would have easily been able to stop future rapes.

There was no investigation into Paterno. And even if there was there were no charges made against him. In regards to Paterno's fault there hasn't been a whole lot of investigation. I'm not defending anyone else.

 

[schuelma]

I don't know about that. If what people here believe is true then maybe. But I wouldn't be surprised to see JoePa come out pissed and tell people he actually did follow up and was lead to believe it was investigated and that Sandusky was innocent. JoePa seems pissed. If that's the case you have to believe there's a reason he feels like he's being thrown under the bus.

We already know what he said, under oath, to the grand jury. Unless you are implying that he is going to perjure himself with new information that will make himself look better, then I do not see how this ends well for him.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

There was no investigation into Paterno. And even if there was there were no charges made against him. In regards to Paterno's fault there hasn't been a whole lot of investigation. I'm not defending anyone else.

Right, that's how I read it too. Don't think for a second this is all of it. So those casting him aside or calling for his innocence (which mind you he did nothing legally wrong) are jumping to the gun too soon. I do think at the very least Joe has earned the right to due process before making him look so bad. It's blown up too fast and it's involving kids so it hits home, I know that. BUT once cooler heads prevail, first and foremost, Jerry needs to hang and the upper management of that university need to go. Investigate into why the original investigations never found anything. Especially after the second incident. And third, let's wait and see exactly what Joe did because if he did the right thing and told his uppers (which he did) then the burden is on them to have them have it looked into. Joe is an old man and running one of the top programs in the country, I don't think the guy has time to babysit his uppers.

We know of what is in the report Schuelma, true. There is more context to the story though. It's like reading a bullet point review of a 500 page novel. It's deeper and you don't want to see Joe go down like this.

 

[schuelma]

From all the reports I read, he's not one to hide from things and it seems that way to me based on what I've known of him since I've followed NCAA football. I am leaning more on the side of him right now as he seems to be dragged into this like he's responsible and is making almost all the headlines outside of the children themselves.

Disclosure- I'm not a PSU alum. But from everything I have read from PSU alums, fans, etc., Joe Pa IS THE SCHOOL. HE PICKED THE ATHLETIC DIRECTOR HE REPORTED TO. The notion that Joe Paterno actually had supervisors he could pass the buck to on an issue like this is absurd. You hear from a trusted GA that a former coach was doing something sexual to a 10 year old, you report it to the police, period. Bottom line, end of story.

 

[bigtroyjon]

There was no investigation into Paterno. And even if there was there were no charges made against him. In regards to Paterno's fault there hasn't been a whole lot of investigation. I'm not defending anyone else.

Paterno losing his job has nothing to do with him being guilty in a court of law. He had to chance to stop kid rape and he didn't, that's why he is going to lose his job.

 

[C Jones]

I don't know about that. If what people here believe is true then maybe. But I wouldn't be surprised to see JoePa come out pissed and tell people he actually did follow up and was lead to believe it was investigated and that Sandusky was innocent. JoePa seems pissed. If that's the case you have to believe there's a reason he feels like he's being thrown under the bus.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/s...us-on-how-paterno-reacted.html?pagewanted=all

"Paterno’s son Scott said in an interview Sunday that Paterno never spoke to Sandusky about the allegation, and that he never seriously pursued the question of whether any action had been taken by the university or any other authorities against Sandusky.

“From my imperfect recollection, once he referred it off, I do not believe he had a second conversation about it,” Scott Paterno said of his father and how he handled any follow-up on the allegation. He added: “The appropriate people were contacted by Joe. That was the chain of command. It was a retired employee and it falls under the university’s auspices, not the football auspices.”

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Here is a summary of the case against Paterno, since many seem to be confused on why he is coming under fire:

Paterno must have known that Sandusky was a pedophile

• There was a 1998 investigation into Sandusky for similar charges that Paterno was almost certainly aware of. Sandusky is pushed out of the football program the next year.
• Paterno receives an eyewitness account of Sandusky raping a child by a member of his staff.
• In case there is any doubt over whether Paterno thinks the witness might be lying/not credible, he goes on to be promote him to WR coach within 2 years of the incident.
• Nowhere in the grand jury report or in Paterno's statement is there any indication that Paterno confronted Sandusky about these serious allegations to get his side of the story, despite having known the man for over 30 years.

Paterno had every reason to believe Sandusky was continuing to molest children

• Had there been an investigation or charges filed after the 2002 incident, Paterno would have known about it. He observes that nothing has come of the rape incident.
• Sandusky continues to bring young boys to Penn State events that Paterno is present at years later, including at least one closed practice. It is reasonable to believe that Paterno observed Sandusky in the company of these boys.

Paterno may have helped to protect Sandusky

• When Paterno went to his superiors about the shower incident, one claims that Paterno told them it was harmless horsing around and the other claims that it was vaguely reported as something "inappropriate".
• Paterno's public statement says that the graduate student told him that there was inappropriate behavior but it wasn't clear that it was serious.
• The graduate assistant's testimony states that he clearly observed rape.
• We don't know whether the graduate assistant reported rape to Paterno and Paterno downplayed it or if the graduate student chose not to give Paterno the true story for some reason, but there is room for doubt.

worth quoting for those who missed it.

 

[B-Dex]

Yeah from the initial reports, Joe seems to be the least guilty out of everyone from a moral standpoint. So if his side of the story is convincing he can get out of this. I don't see anyway that Spanier, Curley, or Shultz can get out of this. McQueary... I dunno he should have called the cops the same day, but this wasn't a high school and he wasn't trained at all on such things.

Do you need to be trained to report child rape?

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Disclosure- I'm not a PSU alum. But from everything I have read from PSU alums, fans, etc., Joe Pa IS THE SCHOOL. HE PICKED THE ATHLETIC DIRECTOR HE REPORTED TO. The notion that Joe Paterno actually had supervisors he could pass the buck to on an issue like this is absurd. You hear from a trusted GA that a former coach was doing something sexual to a 10 year old, you report it to the police, period. Bottom line, end of story.

That;s true but we really don't know everything to be able to say that he was the one that should have made that call. As was noted, he reported it and went about it the way they are told to. Go to your bosses. Obviously nothing was done to the extent or Jerry wasn't found guilty of anything especially considering how charitable he was (ironic). Like serial killers, some of them seem to be the nicest, most regular folk. Oh so wrong.

worth quoting for those who missed it.

Interest notes there. This crap better not carry on for months. I want some results and facts this week. Right now, not later.

 

[samus i am]

Do you need to be trained to report child rape?

He reported it to the head of campus police.

 

[Dude Abides]

I wouldn't go that far. But I think it's ridiculous to focus your attention on Joe Paterno since he isn't the pedophile.

But he's the only one with an indignant defense force.

He reported it to the head of campus police.

Nope, he told the AD, Curley. Curley told Schultz.

 

[samus i am]

But he's the only one with an indignant defense force.

And?

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

But he's the only one with an indignant defense force.

If JoePa did what everyone here is accusing him of then I might support his removal, but to do it when it is somewhat unclear, and so quickly, is not fair to the guy who has done more for the university than anyone ever.

 

[Dude Abides]

And?

Other wrongdoers are still trying to escape consequences of their actions, abetted by blindly loyal fans.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

If JoePa did what everyone here is accusing him of then I might support his removal, but to do it when it is somewhat unclear, and so quickly, is not fair to the guy who has done more for the university than anyone ever.

That's why I said he's earned the right to at least set things straight, if possible. If it's too deep then he should gracefully step down. I personally don't see him as tarnished as some of the media say he is from this. It absolutely depends on what level of knowledge and how deep he got involved in this. Frankly it's a lot to put on a coach who is coaching and is a full time job. Not dealing with the stuff the administration and police should be doing.

 

[Sanjuro]

If JoePa did what everyone here is accusing him of then I might support his removal, but to do it when it is somewhat unclear, and so quickly, is not fair to the guy who has done more for the university than anyone ever.

I read the entire report and it's pretty clear.

 

[schuelma]

Frankly it's a lot to put on a coach who is coaching and is a full time job. Not dealing with the stuff the administration and police should be doing.

Frankly, that is such fucking bullshit. His GA tells him a 10 year old is being raped in the football showers by his former defensive coordinator of 30 years, and he's too busy to make a fucking phone call to the police?

 

[samus i am]

Frankly, that is such fucking bullshit. His GA tells him a 10 year old is being raped in the football showers by his former defensive coordinator of 30 years, and he's too busy to make a fucking phone call to the police?

Those details are kind of murky. Apparently he only told Joe that something inappropriate happened, or something kind of vague.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Frankly, that is such fucking bullshit. His GA tells him a 10 year old is being raped in the football showers by his former defensive coordinator of 30 years, and he's too busy to make a fucking phone call to the police?

It's bs but lets see what really happened. Was he told that things were being looked into and if he seen Jerry still around, he would assume that things must have not been true. All the facts aren't out. Let him man up to it, which hopefully the university will let him.

 

[schuelma]

Those details are kind of murky. Apparently he only told Joe that something inappropriate happened, or something kind of vague.

Ok, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and all he told Paterno was something sexual, etc (I think that's the GJ testimony). Same story. Not to mention that I am 99% sure Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation, so his radar should already have been up.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Frankly, that is such fucking bullshit. His GA tells him a 10 year old is being raped in the football showers by his former defensive coordinator of 30 years, and he's too busy to make a fucking phone call to the police?

He instead called the HR/Head of Campus Police. If you are a Boss and some asshole is committing crime outside your building, you don't call up some police pleb, you call the fucking mayor and tell him to deal with this shit. That is what JoePa did. Joe Paterno is many things, but he is not HR, Campus Police, nor Batman. It is not his job to fight crime, just tell the people who do such a thing to get to work.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

He instead called the HR/Head of Campus Police. If you are a Boss and some asshole is committing crime outside your building, you don't call up some police pleb, you call the fucking mayor and tell him to deal with this shit. That is what JoePa did. Joe Paterno is many things, but he is not HR, Campus Police, nor Batman. It is not his job to fight crime, just tell the people who do such a thing to get to work.

That's only because he retired like three or four years ago.

Spoiler

Cue claims of me being a JoePa fanboy for making a joke...

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Ok, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and all he told Paterno was something sexual, etc (I think that's the GJ testimony). Same story. Not to mention that I am 99% sure Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation, so his radar should already have been up.

True. I really just want more details. I'm trying to keep an open mind because it is Joe and you never know how things run when you're dealing with a guy his age.

Like what I was hearing earlier about the new AD at the time (and current one under fire) went to Joe's house and basically asked him if it was time to resign and was kicked out of the house. He's a straight shooter who has earned quite a bit of respect so that's why I'm not so quick to toss this old man under the bus. At least not like the other more liable people.

 

[rage1973]

Those details are kind of murky. Apparently he only told Joe that something inappropriate happened, or something kind of vague.

Any inappropriate act by a grown old man with a 10 year old boy in a shower is a sure red flag. That should sound every single internal alarm that this needs to be looked into even without any graphic detail especially when it was done by your own assistant coach of 30 years.

 

[schuelma]

He instead called the HR/Head of Campus Police. If you are a Boss and some asshole is committing crime outside your building, you don't call up some police pleb, you call the fucking mayor and tell him to deal with this shit. That is what JoePa did. Joe Paterno is many things, but he is not HR, Campus Police, nor Batman. It is not his job to fight crime, just tell the people who do such a thing to get to work.

I was under the impression he only told the AD. Where are you getting that he called the head of campus police?

 

[Fenderputty]

Frankly it's a lot to put on a coach who is coaching and is a full time job. Not dealing with the stuff the administration and police should be doing.

This is rediculous. My conscience would prevent me from thinking about anything but the incident. Not some BS about my job being so busy that I just can't bother to think about it after I did the bare min to expose it. Total and complete BS. I'm having trouble thinking of a job that's so important this excuse would be valid.

 

[Meier]

JoePa seems pissed.

Does he?

http://t.co/3CAuzFi6

 

[Hari Seldon]

I was under the impression he only told the AD. Where are you getting that he called the head of campus police?

The fella named Shultz was the head of campus police and the head of HR. He was indicted.

 

[KHarvey16]

The fella named Shultz was the head of campus police and the head of HR. He was indicted.

But did Paterno speak to him is the question. As far as I know he did not when the incident occurred.

 

[schuelma]

The fella named Shultz was the head of campus police and the head of HR. He was indicted.

I know, and from what I read, Paterno did not speak to him.

 

[samus i am]

Does he?

http://t.co/3CAuzFi6

Good grief, now you are just grasping at straws.

 

[Dude Abides]

But did Paterno speak to him is the question. As far as I know he did not when the incident occurred.

He did not. It went McQueary ---> JoePa ---> Curley ---> Meeting between McQueary, Curley, Schultz.

 

[samus i am]

I know, and from what I read, Paterno did not speak to him.

My point is we don't know what happened yet. For all we know the conversation could have went like this:

JoePa: Tim, you won't believe what I just heard about Sandusky.
Tim Curley: Oh shit, no way. I will get a hold of Gary Schultz and we will take care of it.
JoePa: Thanks for looking into this.

 

[Meier]

Good grief, now you are just grasping at straws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

"I do not think that means what you think it means."

 

[samus i am]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

"I do not think that means what you think it means."

How witty. So a photo of him smiling is supposed to prove what?

 

[KHarvey16]

My point is we don't know what happened yet. For all we know the conversation could have went like this:

JoePa: Tim, you won't believe what I just heard about Sandusky.
Tim Curley: Oh shit, no way. I will get a hold of Gary Schultz and we will take care of it.
JoePa: Thanks for looking into this.

And perhaps a few days later:

Paterno: Hey Curly, no big deal or anything but remember that 10 year old boy being raped in my locker room thing the other day? Just wondering if there's any update regarding that small, inconsequential incident.

Curly: Ah, you know, we just told him to hand in his locker room keys and pinky swear to never do it again. So I think we're good.

Paterno: Oh good, I was worried. How was dinner?

 

[Sanjuro]

How witty. So a photo of him smiling is supposed to prove what?

That he was smiling?

 

[ZedIndyLil]

I don't think the Paterno defenses here hold a lot of water. At the same time, however, I absolutely agree that he's being set up, by PSU and the media, as a kind of catchall scapegoat. The story does not begin and end with Joe Paterno. Unfortunately, once he goes down, my fear is that the national media will suddenly lose interest, and equally culpable people will continue unscathed.

 

[neutralgamer02]

If there is one thing to learn from this incident and others is that you should always go to your city/county police if you are in serious trouble. Never go to university police. They will always cover it to try not to hurt the university's reputation.

 

[samus i am]

That he was smiling?

That monster!

 

[rdrr gnr]

My point is we don't know what happened yet. For all we know the conversation could have went like this:

JoePa: Tim, you won't believe what I just heard about Sandusky.
Tim Curley: Oh shit, no way. I will get a hold of Gary Schultz and we will take care of it.
JoePa: Thanks for looking into this.

Fucking Christ.

 

[Tom Penny]

What a terrible mental disease to have to make you want to touch children. It's probably too late to rehabilitate him at this point.It's pathetic see that a school wants to protect themselves before children.

 

[Sanjuro]

I don't think the Paterno defenses here hold a lot of water.

Boy, is this guy right! I'm going to read the rest now.

At the same time, however, I absolutely agree that he's being set up, by PSU and the media, as a kind of catchall scapegoat.

...he has been set up by raped children! What are this kids plotting???