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[tokkun]

Who the fuck cares if McQueary said "innaproppriate" or he said "rape"?

It's a 50+ year old man and a 10 year old boy in a shower. Nothing "innapropriate" is OK and doesn't alleviate Joe of anything.

The reason that it is important is because the grand jury testimony says that when Paterno took the information to his superiors, he described it in vague terms.

If Paterno took a clear description of rape and watered it down when reporting it, that is significant.

 

[truly101]

One thing that really dawned on me about McCreary and the shower incident. I think the worst thing he did was leave the kid there. I'm not saying he needed to kick the shit out of Sandusky or whatever, but leaving the kid there, even if the rape was no longer taking place is looking really bad. In fact, regardless of whatver else McCreary did, whether it was going to the cops or Paterno or whoever, he did have a responsibility to remove the child from the situation, though it may only be a moral one.

 

[Fenderputty]

He kept McQuery on the staff yet let Sandusky keep coming around? And didn't question anything? He cant claim to be that naive. Everybody with any kind of power or authority over the football program at that time needs to be gone yesterday.

I can't figure out how he can make every connection but this one. Everyone needs to go.

 

[Fenderputty]

The reason that it is important is because the grand jury testimony says that when Paterno took the information to his superiors, he described it in vague terms.

If Paterno took a clear description of rape and watered it down when reporting it, that is significant.

Which doesn't alleviate Joe Paterno of anything. It possibly makes his position worse.

 

[gutshot]

I feel like we are going in circles now in this discussion. Joe *is* Penn State football. Nothing goes down without him having knowledge of the situation. 1998 happened, and Sandusky got the boot. 2002 was on his campus.

I don't think we are going in circles. You believe Joe knew about the '98 incident. I believe that he may have but I don't know for sure and would like there to be more investigation into it.

Is being aware about one child getting raped not comparable to him knowing about two? Three? Six?

Not sure I follow you here. What are you asking me?

Do you think that it was a coincidence that Sandusky stepped down a year after the investigation?

Maybe. Maybe not. I think the timeline makes things suspicious and I would like there to be more investigation.

 

[Hari Seldon]

The reason that it is important is because the grand jury testimony says that when Paterno took the information to his superiors, he described it in vague terms.

If Paterno took a clear description of rape and watered it down when reporting it, that is significant.

It doesn't matter one fucking bit because his superiors then interviewed McQueary directly. If they DIDN'T interview him directly than that would be even worse.

 

[Sanjuro]

One thing that really dawned on me about McCreary and the shower incident. I think the worst thing he did was leave the kid there. I'm not saying he needed to kick the shit out of Sandusky or whatever, but leaving the kid there, even if the rape was no longer taking place is looking really bad. In fact, regardless of whatver else McCreary did, whether it was going to the cops or Paterno or whoever, he did have a responsibility to remove the child from the situation, though it may only be a moral one.

I mentioned this before. I don't agree with his ultimate judgement call, but McCeary was not in a power position of any sort.

I guess a similar scenario would be if you are a non-union bagger at a grocery store and you saw your manager fuck a underage female employee. You step in and try and do something about it, you're fired. The alternate is you bring it up to your DM or upper management there is still a probability you will end up canned.

It's McCeary's rise in position since the events which is the sickening part. That is where any sort of opinion on him falters.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I mentioned this before. I don't agree with his ultimate judgement call, but McCeary was not in a power position of any sort.

I guess a similar scenario would be if you are a non-union bagger at a grocery store and you saw your manager fuck a underage female employee. You step in and try and do something about it, you're fired. The alternate is you bring it up to your DM or upper management there is still a probability you will end up canned.

It's McCeary's rise in position since the events which is the sickening part. That is where any sort of opinion on him falters.

Then I'll lose my job and keep my soul.

Then I'll sue for wrongful termination.

Once again. A defenseless child that doesn't even KNOW any better...you'd just say "well, can't risk that 10$/hour....I ain't seen nothin!"?

 

[SolidSnakex]

It's McCeary's rise in position since the events which is the sickening part. That is where any sort of opinion on him falters.

I'm glad that the media is starting to pick up on this. McCreary better get his story together quick because he's going to get it after the media is finished with Joe Pa.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

President to be voted out or resigned by the end of the day.

Just heard on ESPN.

Wait.

The President of the University??? Why would they get voted out? Is it alleged that (s)he knew something? Or is it because of him leading the initial university response to defend the molesters on Penn State's dime?

Also, Joe is craaaazy for staying the rest of the season. I hope he's ready for that experience, because it will neither be fun nor the graceful exit he would have received.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Wait.

The President of the University??? Why would they get voted out? Is it alleged that (s)he knew something? Or is it because of him leading the initial university response to defend the molesters on Penn State's dime?

Because his vice president and athletic director were charged with crimes?

 

[Barrett2]

I mentioned this before. I don't agree with his ultimate judgement call, but McCeary was not in a power position of any sort.

I guess a similar scenario would be if you are a non-union bagger at a grocery store and you saw your manager fuck a underage female employee. You step in and try and do something about it, you're fired. The alternate is you bring it up to your DM or upper management there is still a probability you will end up canned.

It's McCeary's rise in position since the events which is the sickening part. That is where any sort of opinion on him falters.

It's tough to know the dynamics involved. In that situation, it would be hard to think straight.

But man, if McCeary was being promoted in exchange for keeping quiet... Jesus...

 

[Hari Seldon]

It's tough to know the dynamics involved. In that situation, it would be hard to think straight.

But man, if McCeary was being promoted in exchange for keeping quiet... Jesus...

It is entirely possible, however it is equally possible that the fact that McQueary was a starting QB for PS, he got the position on merit.

 

[SolidSnakex]

But man, if McCeary was being promoted in exchange for keeping quiet... Jesus...

His rise happened very fast. He was just a graduate assistant coach from 2000-2002. In 03 he became the administrative assistant and in 2004 he landed at his current position as WR coach. He's also their recruiting coordinator.

 

[planar1280]

Tom Ridge as next president of PSU? Red = you are not being considered, Yellow = you might be considered, Green = You are in!

 

[Fenderputty]

Wait.

The President of the University??? Why would they get voted out? Is it alleged that (s)he knew something? Or is it because of him leading the initial university response to defend the molesters on Penn State's dime?

Also, Joe is craaaazy for staying the rest of the season. I hope he's ready for that experience, because it will neither be fun nor the graceful exit he would have received.

Why woudn't they? This happened under their watch.

I felt more like JoePa's retirement speach was more of a request to Penn State. Not sure if he'll last. What do you think the post game speaches will be about? Hint: Not about the game that was just played.

 

[gutshot]

His rise happened very fast. He was just a graduate assistant coach from 2000-2002. In 03 he became the administrative assistant and in 2004 he landed at his current position as WR coach. He's also their recruiting coordinator.

Is this rise any faster than other position coaches rising through the ranks of a college football program? I'm asking because I honestly have no idea.

Again, this is where investigation comes into play. Not just jumping to conclusions.

 

[Meier]

Regardless of what may have been stated by PSU attornies, anyone who thinks Paterno was in the dark about the 98 investigation is deluding themselves. There is literally 0% chance that is the case.

Regarding McQueary, I don't necessarily think he's risen that fast. It's actually fairly surprising that a young guy like that wouldn't get hired by another smaller school in a larger capacity after all this time.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Is this rise any faster than other position coaches rising through the ranks of a college football program? I'm asking because I honestly have no idea.

Again, this is where investigation comes into play. Not just jumping to conclusions.

I know that some sports shows that i've seen have talked like his rise isn't normal. But they really haven't dug into it too much since they're focused on Joe Pa right now.

 

[Novid]

Student speaking up at rally last night http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35NZfcts4tA

This kid is the only motherfucker that make sense. I bet his from the hood. Too bad he gonna pay back loans he cannot pay back.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Tom Ridge as next president of PSU? Red = you are not being considered, Yellow = you might be considered, Green = You are in!

Might work if Penn State has another sniper incident.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Because his vice president and athletic director were charged with crimes?

Oh I missed that.

 

[gutshot]

Regardless of what may have been stated by PSU attornies, anyone who thinks Paterno was in the dark about the 98 investigation is deluding themselves. There is literally 0% chance that is the case.

Ok then, let's assume Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation into Sandusky. And let's say the investigation plays out and Paterno learns that he isn't going to be charged with any crime. What is Paterno supposed to do at that point? Do you think maybe the best thing to do would be to quietly let Sandusky go by forcing him into retirement?

 

[Spectral Glider]

Yes, but the grand jury was (rightly) focused on the allegations against Sandusky. There was very little time spent on investigating how much the university and Paterno knew about Sandusky's actions prior to the 2002 incident. I would like to know more before accusing Paterno of a cover-up.

I'm not accusing Paterno of a cover-up. I'm accusing him of completely lacking any god damn common sense and human decency.

 

[Sanjuro]

Ok then, let's assume Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation into Sandusky. And let's say the investigation plays out and Paterno learns that he isn't going to be charged with any crime. What is Paterno supposed to do at that point? Do you think maybe the best thing to do would be to quietly let Sandusky go by forcing him into retirement?

Go to the police in 2002 when a boy is anally raped in your showers?

 

[Dude Abides]

Ok then, let's assume Paterno knew about the 1998 investigation into Sandusky. And let's say the investigation plays out and Paterno learns that he isn't going to be charged with any crime. What is Paterno supposed to do at that point? Do you think maybe the best thing to do would be to quietly let Sandusky go by forcing him into retirement?

What investigation are you referring to? The grand jury has already investigated. It's done. There's now going to be a trial unless Sandusky pleads out. Since Paterno is not a defendant, this aspect will not be explored.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Is this rise any faster than other position coaches rising through the ranks of a college football program? I'm asking because I honestly have no idea.

Again, this is where investigation comes into play. Not just jumping to conclusions.

No, you can expect to be a position coach in your late 20s early 30s if you have been a graduate assistant.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Absolutely fucking pathetic Paterno is being allowed to retire at the end of the season. He should have been fired days ago

 

[gutshot]

Go to the police in 2002 when a boy is anally raped in your showers?

Yes, I agree this would have been the best thing to do then. He did immediately report it to his two supervisors, but clearly that was not good enough. Apparently, in the moment, Paterno thought it was. I'm guessing he wishes now that he did more.

What investigation are you referring to? The grand jury has already investigated. It's done. There's now going to be a trial unless Sandusky pleads out. Since Paterno is not a defendant, this aspect will not be explored.

The 1998 investigation into Sandusky by local law enforcement and Child Services.

 

[Devolution]

I mentioned this before. I don't agree with his ultimate judgement call, but McCeary was not in a power position of any sort.

I guess a similar scenario would be if you are a non-union bagger at a grocery store and you saw your manager fuck a underage female employee. You step in and try and do something about it, you're fired. The alternate is you bring it up to your DM or upper management there is still a probability you will end up canned.

It's McCeary's rise in position since the events which is the sickening part. That is where any sort of opinion on him falters.

How does someone see a child being victimized in this way and not step in? I just can't fathom this or any defense of it.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

How does someone see a child being victimized in this way and not step in? I just can't fathom this or any defense of it.

there isn't a defense. it's simply people with their own interests (career advancement, pleasing the bosses) in mind instead of the victim. These are all college-educated people. They're all smart enough to know better.

Yes, I agree this would have been the best thing to do then. He did immediately report it to his two supervisors, but clearly that was not good enough. Apparently, in the moment, Paterno thought it was. I'm guessing he wishes now that he did more.

my issue isn't even that this was his initial action; it's that there was no follow-up whatsoever.

to accusations that a colleague was fucking children. c'mon, Joe.

 

[Sanjuro]

How does someone see a child being victimized in this way and not step in? I just can't fathom this or any defense of it.

I would like to agree, but you have to at least understand some of the reasoning. The story of Victim 8 features a janitor who was there as a temp. He mentioned it to the other janitors and they were all fearful of losing their jobs. He ended up telling a superior. He also had no idea who Sandusky was.

McGeary had a better idea of who the people involved were and their power with the university. Like I mentioned further information probably isn't going to make him look any better.

 

[Devolution]

there isn't a defense. it's simply people with their own interests (career advancement, pleasing the bosses) in mind instead of the victim. These are all college-educated people. They're all smart enough to know better.

Just throw all of them to the wolves. People and attitudes like this need to be shamed out of society. Fucking disgusting.

I would like to agree, but you have to at least understand some of the reasoning. The story of Victim 8 features a janitor who was there as a temp. He mentioned it to the other janitors and they were all fearful of losing their jobs. He ended up telling a superior. He also had no idea who Sandusky was.

McGeary had a better idea of who the people involved were and their power with the university. Like I mentioned further information probably isn't going to make him look any better.

And their silence led to how many more victims? No fuck that, you tell people, you take video, something. Otherwise future victims are also your fault since you could have alerted the authorities.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

Just so much wrong about all of this. Impossible to wrap your head around on a realistic level.

Beyond that shit-eating scum Sandusky, I find myself getting the most angry at McQuery. What a spineless coward. See a 60 year old man anally raping a 10 year old boy, even make alleged eye-contact with them, and just walk away? Go call daddy? I don't care how big or small you are, you fucking act. McQuery is a big dude... so no excuses for him... but even someone smaller than Sandusky. Do something. Tell him to let go of the boy, make sure the boy is ok, get the boy out of the situation, call the damn cops. If Sandusky beats your ass, well, then he has aggrivated assault charges on top of things. The only exception would be if McQuery knew enough about Sandusky to reasonably believe Sandusky would attempt to murder him. Even if that's the case, call the police immediately.

I know, I know- Sandusky is a campus legend. Fragile situation. He has powerful ties to the school. McQuery could have ruined any chance of a career, never know how one will act in such a situation, etc. NO! This isn't catching Sandusky cooking up meth in the locker room. This isn't Sandusky committing adultery by wrestling around with two hookers in the gym. This isn't catching Sandusky giving gifts to students. This is child molestation/rape. Any sense of "lets handle this gently so we don't tarnish the entire school" goes out the window.
Then what does McQuery's dad say? Leave the scene? Come home and we can talk about it? Let's talk to coach tomorrow? I guess cowards breed cowards.

Fastforward and the situation disappears & McQuery gets a job on the coaching staff and Sandusky is still allowed to come to private practices with underage boys that clearly aren't his own. Wow.

Regarding the confusion involving how much detail McQuery eventually gave Paterno and the rest of them... well... accusing someone (especially a school legend and a 30 year friend of an even larger legend) of child rape is about as serious an allegation that you can throw down on someone. I find it hard to believe if McQuery saw actual anal-rape he would sugarcoat it as just 'horseplay' or 'inappropriate conduct'.

As far as Paterno- I'm not nearly as angry at JoePa, but his actions (or lack thereof) are still shameful and disgraceful. I'm also in the camp that believes he should resign effective immediately out of respect to the abused children and their families, form a commitment to work with the school to help support them after his retirement, and emphasizing that he deeply regrets not taking more action.
It would be the right thing to do, IMO... and maybe even salvage a little bit of his reputation. Sure, it can't change what happened, but it could at least show that he holds the seriousness of the whole mess above a football program.

The whole "I'm going to coach the rest of the season and retire later" attitude is just bad... and I really can't expect it holding amid very vocal, very emotional public opinion.

I agree with the posters that believe this might just be the tip of the iceberg.
Sickening.

 

[Salaadin]

Yes, I agree this would have been the best thing to do then. He did immediately report it to his two supervisors, but clearly that was not good enough. Apparently, in the moment, Paterno thought it was. I'm guessing he wishes now that he did more.

He said he does. But, as they say, hindsight is always 20/20.

there isn't a defense. it's simply people with their own interests (career advancement, pleasing the bosses) in mind instead of the victim. These are all college-educated people. They're all smart enough to know better.

Im not sure I would beat the shit out of Sandusky as some people say he should have done but I cant imagine myself seeing a child in that situation and not doing anything about it.
It disgusts me to even think that the boy was just raped by Sandusky and then after it was all over, he was still there...alone with Sandusky. Who the hell knows what else could have happened.

 

[Dude Abides]

The 1998 investigation into Sandusky by local law enforcement and Child Services.

My mistake. Meant to quote this:

Don't know. Like I said, that whole scenario is suspicious and deserves more investigation. Until then, I will withhold from making snap judgements and jumping to conclusions.

Unless something changes, there won't be any more investigation into this. Unless you count that committee that the board is forming, which I don't, since it won' t have any real power.

 

[Sanjuro]

Yes, I agree this would have been the best thing to do then. He did immediately report it to his two supervisors, but clearly that was not good enough. Apparently, in the moment, Paterno thought it was. I'm guessing he wishes now that he did more.

Now you get it. This is the reason alone why he should not maintain his position.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Im not sure I would beat the shit out of Sandusky as some people say he should have done but I cant imagine myself seeing a child in that situation and not doing anything about it.
It disgusts me to even think that the boy was just raped by Sandusky and then after it was all over, he was still there...alone with Sandusky. Who the hell knows what else could have happened.

Agreed. I can't imagine anything more stunning to me than being told that someone I work with was having sex with children...and not doing something about it.

These people did what the Catholic Church did: gave him room to operate by NOT doing what they really needed to do (call the fucking police). For years he was able to get away with this...and only because those in position to do something didn't make sure this guy's ability to touch children in the future was neutered. I'm trying to imagine NOT asking why the fuck this dude wasn't fired if I was JoePa. I just can't. Not for someone like Joe, who has dedicated his career to building boys into men of character. It's such a betrayal of that basic concept, I can't even resolve these 2 realities I'm confronted with in this scandal in my simple mind today.

 

[JGS]

I've posted this in the thread probably a half dozen times now. Read the entire grand jury report. All the information you need is in there.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf

Reading that, how does it not clear Paterno unless his name is in the other victim reports?

 

[Sanjuro]

Reading that, how does it not clear Paterno unless his name is in the other victim reports?

I'm not sure what you mean exactly.

 

[Cyan]

The rally for JoePa is a representation of the protect the pack, us versus them mentality in action. It's a reprehensible tendency that is natural to all of us. A condemnation of the actions of people in a group you identify with does not equal an attack on you personally. I wish more people would recognize and understand that, we'd all be a lot better off if that were the case.

Just quoting to highlight one of the better posts in the last 5-10 pages.

 

[Devolution]

Agreed. I can't imagine anything more stunning to me than being told that someone I work with was having sex with children...and not doing something about it.

These people did what the Catholic Church did: gave him room to operate by NOT doing what they really needed to do (call the fucking police). For years he was able to get away with this...and only because those in position to do something didn't make sure this guy's ability to touch children in the future was neutered. I'm trying to imagine NOT asking why the fuck this dude wasn't fired if I was JoePa. I just can't. Not as someone like Joe, who has dedicated his career to building boys into men of character. It's such a betrayal of that basic concept, I can't even resolve these 2 realities in my simple mind today.

I wish everyone who knew would get charged with something to throw their ass in prison too. Fuckers were complicit in future rapes/sexual harassment since they knew what he had done.

 

[gutshot]

Now you get it. This is the reason alone why he should not maintain his position.

I think he should step down too. But I think the efforts by many in this thread to paint him as some sort of despicable person is way over-reactionary. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Devolution]

I think he should step down too. But I think the efforts by many in this thread to paint him as some sort of despicable person is way over-reactionary. That's all I'm saying.

Letting a known child abuser stay in your employ/not outing him knowing he has access to future victims makes you a despicable fucking person. Where do you set your bar at exactly.

 

[Salaadin]

Reading that, how does it not clear Paterno unless his name is in the other victim reports?

The inconistency in what McQueary told Paterno and what Paterno told Curley.
According to the report, McQueary told Paterno "what he saw". McQueary saw anal rape. So if he didnt lie in the grand jury report, that means McQueary told Paterno that he saw Sandusky anally raping a boy.

But when Paterno told Curley, he said "inappropriate behavior, fondling, something sexual in nature" (not sure if those are the exact words). So the thing that people are harping on about yet is why did Paterno not say "anal rape" if he was specificially told it was anal rape. It gives the impression that he downplayed it regardless of whether or not that was his intention...it still gives off that impression.

Knowing Curleys involvement now, Im not sure it mattered what Paterno said since we now know that Curley told Schulz and the two of them met directly with McQueary so they should have been made fully aware of what happened. But thats when the whole thing stopped.

Thats when you start to question why Paterno or McQueary didnt approach Curley/Schulz after Sandusky was still creeping around.

 

[Sanjuro]

I think he should step down too. But I think the efforts by many in this thread to paint him as some sort of despicable person is way over-reactionary. That's all I'm saying.

That is where we disagree. He purchased his own paint and we are finding the receipts.

 

[JGS]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly.

Well, the report doesn't say Paterno did anything wrong. It actually states that despite him and McCreary doing the right thing, the others did not follow the law. Joe did follow the law (not just the school's).

 

[Fenderputty]

Reading that, how does it not clear Paterno unless his name is in the other victim reports?

What are you talking about? Clear him of what?

 

[clav]

Well, the report doesn't say Paterno did anything wrong. It actually states that despite him and McCreary doing the right thing, the others did not follow the law. Joe did follow the law (not just the school's).

Even though Paterno didn't do anything wrong (or whatever people view his actions of the situation), Paterno is guilty by association with the school.

Very sad how this situation is unfolding.

 

[Dude Abides]

Letting a known child abuser stay in your employ/not outing him knowing he has access to future victims makes you a despicable fucking person. Where do you set your bar at exactly.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the sequence of events:

Mid-late 1990s - Sandusky doing a lot of child molesting. No evidence anyone at PSU knows about it, although people have claimed there were rumors.

1998 - Police investigate allegation w/r/t one particular victim, investigation dropped for unclear reasons. No evidence in GJ report that Paterno knew about this, on the other hand, seems implausible that Paterno, King of State College, would not get wind of it.

1999 - Sandusky resigns unexpectedly. No longer employed by Penn State, but continues to be affiliated with the university personally and through his "charity" focused on young boys.

2002 - Sandusky rapes kid in Penn State locker room. McQueary sees it, tells Paterno. Paterno tells Curley. Curley tells Schultz. Schultz and Curley meet with McQueary, tell Spanier about their meeting. Nothing happens except Sandusky is instructed not to take bring kids onto PSU campus.

2002-2011 - Sandusky continues to hang around the program, continues to bring kids into facilities despite ostensible "ban."