Support NeoGAF

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I'm looking at it properly I would say, which I don't believe you are at the moment. Say I was still the manager of a game store in a similar scenario as Paterno. Are you telling me that corporate is going to keep me working there while I allowed rape and sexual assault to happen in the back room?

No. Once again, you are clouded by emotion.

"Properly", the way you are using it, is a moral relative.

Anyone else from Lawyer-GAF wanna chime in here about operating in moral vacuums?

 

[Fox318]

It's not just the press. I want blood. People want blood. I'm absolutely sickened by this shit.

I agree. This is just fucking disgusting.

 

[Sanjuro]

No. Once again, you are clouded by emotion.

"Properly", the way you are using it, is a moral relative.

Once again you sound foolish. You are a decent poster here, but you simply aren't making any sense here.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Actually ChiTown is probably right.

If this was a run of the mill coach like Dave Bliss - sure, you can run him out yesterday.

However, this is Joe Paterno. Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

 

[Sanjuro]

Actually ChiTown is probably right.

If this was a run of the mill coach like Dave Bliss - sure, you can run him out yesterday.

However, this is Joe Paterno. Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

No, he isn't. This is one of the worst (probably the worst) scandals in North American sports history. The school needs to move away from this. If they don't then NCAA sure as hell will.

 

[KingGondo]

If this was a run of the mill coach like Dave Bliss - sure, you can run him out yesterday.

However, this is Joe Paterno. Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

This is even worse than the Dave Bliss coverup, and that's saying something.

There is absolutely no reason for him to continue being involved with the program until this is sorted out.

 

[Yaboosh]

Actually ChiTown is probably right.

If this was a run of the mill coach like Dave Bliss - sure, you can run him out yesterday.

However, this is Joe Paterno. Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

Not that big of a difference anymore. He is in a big decline as a coach, and really old. If this were 1990, then yes, I'd agree that you couldn't just get rid of him. But getting rid of him would probably benefit the football program at this point.

 

[crowphoenix]

Actually ChiTown is probably right.

If this was a run of the mill coach like Dave Bliss - sure, you can run him out yesterday.

However, this is Joe Paterno. Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

That's true. But you've also got to think of the Penn State brand. The longer Joe Paterno stays, the longer this situation is going to drag out because the press will probably not drop this subject. The last thing Penn State probably wants is for Child Molestation Scandal to be entrenched in the common football fans thoughts.

 

[andycapps]

Actually ChiTown is probably right.

If this was a run of the mill coach like Dave Bliss - sure, you can run him out yesterday.

However, this is Joe Paterno. Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

Exactly, people are trying to make black and white calls over what would happen in a world where Joe Pa hadn't been the coach there for 45 years. The guy is a legend and is/was untouchable at PSU. And this was one of his friends. I don't think anyone is sticking up for either of them, just that clearly, it wasn't easy to get people to believe what was going on.

If you read the interviews with Victim 1's mother and some of the other mothers, they've been trying for several years to go through the police investigations and basically to get people to believe them. Up until this week, the common thought was that it was some kids exagerating or being coerced by adults to exagerate their stories.

 

[Sanjuro]

Not that big of a difference anymore. He is in a big decline as a coach, and really old. If this were 1990, then yes, I'd agree that you couldn't just get rid of him. But getting rid of him would probably benefit the football program at this point.

We aren't talking about his coaching ability or any of his professional accomplishments. I've been listening to the radio and hearing the Penn St. fools call and try to speak of Paterno's innocent.

"But, he never had any recruiting violations!"

Complete mess all around.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I knew there was a reason why I never went to Penn State after visiting there.

(Actually, I just wasn't a fan of the binge drinking & state school in the middle of nowhere culture that seems to exist there.)

I fail to see how anyone could not have fun at state college, but I guess if you have the loner gamer psyche then it is possible.

 

[Incendiary]

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously, Sandusky is a piece of shit. Anybody that was a part of the Penn State AD that covered it up or let it go (including Paterno) needs punishment.

But my dad went to Penn State, and I just hate seeing his alma mater being completely destroyed by this. Anybody calling it Pedo State makes me really want to punch them. Yes, one guy in the athletic department is a pedophile. And yes, the athletic department let him keep working and didn't report it. This isn't a schoolwide phenomenon. Every professor in the school isn't touching little kids.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Once again you sound foolish. You are a decent poster here, but you simply aren't making any sense here.

I'm looking at it from a strictly legal perspective. And not legal is in criminal, etc. etc. I'm looking at it in terms of contracts.

And part of looking at it, is looking at the situation through a moral vacuum.

Attorneys much smarter than me, worked on JoePa's contract with Penn State. And they porbably put tons of conditions and clauses in there, along with PSU's administration that both looked after their best interests. It is not inconceivable that he has a clause in his contract that would require the university to pay a significant amount of money if he is terminated prematurely, without cause.

As for that cause, there are standards that need to be met to terminate him. I'm guessing that standard was to report it up the ladder, with no obligation on JoePa's part, legally, to make sure all the investigating was done. That's why the AD and the university VP's are ins hot water. Because it was their jobs to oversee the investigative piece. Paterno probably met the bare minimum of compliance to preclude himself from being fired for cause.

For the University to fire him, they need to weigh the cost/benefit to having to pay out an amount of money to Paterno for doing it without cause. As opposed to letting him sit in an office with no power for the next 2 months, when the contract naturally expires and they part ways.

Just as one does not simply walk into Mordor, one does not simply fire JoePa.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

This is even worse than the Dave Bliss coverup, and that's saying something.

That dude was volunteer coaching at a local Denver HS like a month after that went down. Blew minds.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously, Sandusky is a piece of shit. Anybody that was a part of the Penn State AD that covered it up or let it go (including Paterno) needs punishment.

But my dad went to Penn State, and I just hate seeing his alma mater being completely destroyed by this. Anybody calling it Pedo State makes me really want to punch them. Yes, one guy in the athletic department is a pedophile. And yes, the athletic department let him keep working and didn't report it. This isn't a schoolwide phenomenon. Every professor in the school isn't touching little kids.

Technically he was forced to retire in 1999 after the original allegations in 1998. So he wasn't really in the athletic department. They just let him hang around the facilities.

Edit: What I think happened was they found out about the 1998 accusations, but instead of firing him and having to explain why they were firing a 30 year coach who was extremely well liked, they convinced him to retire and they would keep it on the DL. This looks bad now, however it was a solid move at the time since the DA was supposedly still investigating everything. But the DA ended up not prosecuting, so they let him keep his good status as a retiree and let him use the facilities with his charity group.

 

[C Jones]

No way JoePa gets fired. It has absolutely nothing to do with contracts. It's about preserving his legacy. At most they will ask him to step down. No chance he gets fired.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

No, he isn't. This is one of the worst (probably the worst) scandals in North American sports history. The school needs to move away from this. If they don't then NCAA sure as hell will.

It has to be the worst. It's one of the worst scandals for anything, ever. I mean it's only arguable that a worse scandal would be the athletic department of a college conspiring to protect a serial killer on their staff. And that might only be as bad.

 

[Yaboosh]

We aren't talking about his coaching ability or any of his professional accomplishments. I've been listening to the radio and hearing the Penn St. fools call and try to speak of Paterno's innocent.

"But, he never had any recruiting violations!"

Complete mess all around.

The question they were talking about was can you just get rid of him, and they were saying no, because this is Joe fucking Paterno, winningest coach in Div 1a football. I am saying being Joe fucking Paterno at this point isn't important enough to prevent them from running him out of town over this. But it probably would have been 20 years ago.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

The Dave Bliss thing blew my mind. I know the guy personally and am still shocked at the way he handled things. He used to borrow my dad's car when the Lobos would be up to play Utah and BYU on their road trips.

 

[Sanjuro]

For the University to fire him, they need to weigh the cost/benefit to having to pay out an amount of money to Paterno for doing it without cause. As opposed to letting him sit in an office with no power for the next 2 months, when the contract naturally expires and they part ways.

There is little difference between this and what I'm stating. They aren't going to want him anywhere near the campus though. Either way he is going to get paid, I agree.

 

[crowphoenix]

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously, Sandusky is a piece of shit. Anybody that was a part of the Penn State AD that covered it up or let it go (including Paterno) needs punishment.

But my dad went to Penn State, and I just hate seeing his alma mater being completely destroyed by this. Anybody calling it Pedo State makes me really want to punch them. Yes, one guy in the athletic department is a pedophile. And yes, the athletic department let him keep working and didn't report it. This isn't a schoolwide phenomenon. Every professor in the school isn't touching little kids.

And that's why people are talking about the Athletics department, but if Penn State didn't want this scandal to damage their reputation, they should have dealt with it and not allowed this scum to take advantage of children through school sponsored events.

But, I want to make it clear. This sucks for the teachers, students, and Alumni of Penn State. They will be swept up in this because some people in Athletics decided that football was more important than children.

 

[Novid]

This is a issue that could bring the whole NCAA down.

 

[Sanjuro]

No way JoePa gets fired. It has absolutely nothing to do with contracts. It's about preserving his legacy. At most they will ask him to step down. No chance he gets fired.

The whole investigation seems poor to this point, but his legacy should be dying in a jail cell or in a trial. If you don't believe Paterno is a scumbag, you haven't read the jury report.

There are more victims coming out as we speak in this thread. Another one apparently has just come forward.

 

[Yaboosh]

This is a issue that could bring the whole NCAA down.

No it isn't. This isn't a failure of the NCAA in any way.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Exactly, people are trying to make black and white calls over what would happen in a world where Joe Pa hadn't been the coach there for 45 years. The guy is a legend and is/was untouchable at PSU. And this was one of his friends. I don't think anyone is sticking up for either of them, just that clearly, it wasn't easy to get people to believe what was going on.

If you read the interviews with Victim 1's mother and some of the other mothers, they've been trying for several years to go through the police investigations and basically to get people to believe them. Up until this week, the common thought was that it was some kids exagerating or being coerced by adults to exagerate their stories.

This is even more reason why JoePa should've gone to the cops. He knew about the incident in 98, so he knew that the guy had a history of doing this shit. I don't care if he was friends with Sandusky. There's a lot of things that you can overlook as a friend. But raping kids? That's not one of them. Having him go to the cops would've triggered something to finally happen.

The whole thing is shitty. The fact that he was allowed back on campus after the 98 incident is ridiculous. And then they still allowed him on campus after the 02 accusation. They just told him not to bring any kids from his Second Mile program.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

There is little difference between this and what I'm stating. They aren't going to want him anywhere near the campus though. Either way he is going to get paid, I agree.

There's alot of difference.

You want his head torn asunder now all bloody and messy,

I am laying down the outline for surgical removal. That results in minimal additional impact to the university. (I was assuming the role of PSU legal counsel.)

 

[bigtroyjon]

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously, Sandusky is a piece of shit. Anybody that was a part of the Penn State AD that covered it up or let it go (including Paterno) needs punishment.

But my dad went to Penn State, and I just hate seeing his alma mater being completely destroyed by this. Anybody calling it Pedo State makes me really want to punch them. Yes, one guy in the athletic department is a pedophile. And yes, the athletic department let him keep working and didn't report it. This isn't a schoolwide phenomenon. Every professor in the school isn't touching little kids.

LOL at suggesting that this is confined to the athletic department.

 

[C Jones]

The whole investigation seems poor to this point, but his legacy should be dying in a jail cell or in a trial. If you don't believe Paterno is a scumbag, you haven't read the jury report.

There are more victims coming out as we speak in this thread. Another one apparently has just come forward.

Oh I read it and trust me, I'm fired up. But I don't think JoePa broke PA law. He did the absolute bare minimum but I don't think he broke the law.

 

[tokkun]

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously, Sandusky is a piece of shit. Anybody that was a part of the Penn State AD that covered it up or let it go (including Paterno) needs punishment.

But my dad went to Penn State, and I just hate seeing his alma mater being completely destroyed by this. Anybody calling it Pedo State makes me really want to punch them. Yes, one guy in the athletic department is a pedophile. And yes, the athletic department let him keep working and didn't report it. This isn't a schoolwide phenomenon. Every professor in the school isn't touching little kids.

I think much of the criticism of the school as a whole comes from a perception that they came out protecting the employees accused of covering up the rape and lying to the grand jury.

The problem is that Penn State is handling this in a manner that its repsonse looks calculated to protect its reputation, which many may see as a continuation of the attitude that caused these crimes to go on for so long. People would like to see Penn come out and do something dramatic to demonstrate anger over this, like Sanjuro Tsubaki is suggesting.

 

[Novid]

No it isn't. This isn't a failure of the NCAA in any way.

NCAA going after small time boosters is small cakes compaired to this.

 

[Sanjuro]

There's alot of difference.

You want his head torn asunder now all bloody and messy,

I am laying down the outline for surgical removal. The results in minimal additional impact to the university. (I was assuming the role of PSU legal counsel.)

No. There isn't a difference. What are you still attempting to arguing about? You basically agreed with me that he should not be the head coach of this football team or affiliated with this school in any decision making position from your last posting.

 

[C Jones]

This is a issue that could bring the whole NCAA down.

Eh let's not get crazy. I don't think there's even a chance of this bringing Penn State athletics down (as in suspended programs) never mind the whole NCAA.

 

[Novid]

Tom Corbett should be impeached over this. If his office knew about it and didnt investgate this he needs to be held accountable. (he was the AG at the time)

 

[Yaboosh]

NCAA going after small time boosters is small cakes compaired to this.

Except this has nothing at all to do with the NCAA. These are real crimes, and thankfully the NCAA isn't responsible for doling out the punishments.

 

[Lonestar]

The Joe Pa press conference that was going to happen (the one where he wasn't going to comment on "the situation") has already been cancelled.

 

[Sanjuro]

Oh I read it and trust me, I'm fired up. But I don't think JoePa broke PA law. He did the absolute bare minimum but I don't think he broke the law.

That is questionable. I'm not sure either here, but there is still a way to go. I'm certain there are several legal obligations while working for any sort of educational establishment. If they go after him is going to be the issue. The way things are going his involvement is only going to be further exposed.

 

[blame space]

Millen is breaking down right now

 

[Fox318]

NYT: Joe is gone.

 

[Sanjuro]

I think much of the criticism of the school as a whole comes from a perception that they came out protecting the employees accused of covering up the rape and lying to the grand jury.

The problem is that Penn State is handling this in a manner that its repsonse looks calculated to protect its reputation, which many may see as a continuation of the attitude that caused these crimes to go on for so long. People would like to see Penn come out and do something dramatic to demonstrate anger over this, like Sanjuro Tsubaki is suggesting.

I'm not suggesting that at all. Penn State is already guilty. All they need to do is figure out how to part ways with the currently involved parties and move forward. The media and the public can certainly hold their own at demonstrating their anger over this.

 

[Lonestar]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-said-to-be-planning-paternos-exit.html?_r=1&src=tp

the NYT article

 

[KingGondo]

NYT: Joe is gone.

Bigger fall from grace than Tiger?

I'd say yes.

 

[Sirpopopop]

I fail to see how anyone could not have fun at state college, but I guess if you have the loner gamer psyche then it is possible.

If your idea of fun is to not hang out with frat boy douchebags, then yes, it is very possible to not have fun at state college.

(No offense to the many non-douchebags who went to Penn State that post on this board and in the College Football Thread. All offense intended to Hari Seldon.)

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

No. There isn't a difference. What are you still attempting to arguing about? You basically agreed with me that he should not be the head coach of this football team or affiliated with this school in any decision making position from your last posting.

No I didn't.

For the University to fire him, they need to weigh the cost/benefit to having to pay out an amount of money to Paterno for doing it without cause. As opposed to letting him sit in an office with no power for the next 2 months, when the contract naturally expires and they part ways.

I am not advocating anyone being fired. I'm saying that what needs to be considered.

 

[Hari Seldon]

No it isn't. This isn't a failure of the NCAA in any way.

The issue is reflective of big time football school culture. Penn State football owned the local police, DA, school administrators, and everyone else. The police and DA knew about Sandusky in 1998 and didn't do jack. This is like mafia style shit.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

NYT: Joe is gone.

Well, they are planning his exit.

It'll probably be resignation.

 

[C Jones]

That is questionable. I'm not sure either here, but there is still a way to go. I'm certain there are several legal obligations while working for any sort of educational establishment. If they go after him is going to be the issue. The way things are going his involvement is only going to be further exposed.

I believe PA law says you have to at least notify a superior and then the law should be notified. Chain of command seems to have been followed here, but the AD and VP didn't take it further like they should have.

There is no doubt that JoePa should've done much more though, in my opinion at least. My god just think how many assaults could've been prevented. Who knows how many are out there that didn't come forward.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Well, they are planning his exit.

It'll probably be resignation.

Bingo.

 

[bigtroyjon]

Oh I read it and trust me, I'm fired up. But I don't think JoePa broke PA law. He did the absolute bare minimum but I don't think he broke the law.

Either Joe perjured himself or the ginger did. Smart money is on Joe

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

If your idea of fun is to not hang out with frat boy douchebags, then yes, it is very possible to not have fun at state college.

(No offense to the many non-douchebags who went to Penn State that post on this board and in the College Football Thread. All offense intended to Hari Seldon.)

Dude, there isn't much else to do. As a kid, I used to hit up local arcades, shoot things and have the occasional sleep over at the Sandusky house. Does that sound fun to you/?

 

[Sanjuro]

No I didn't.



I am not advocating anyone being fired. I'm saying that what needs to be considered.

So you are saying Paterno should be allowed to hold his position of head coach of this football team? Okay.