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Person of Interest The Fifth and Final Season |OT| "Thank you for creating me."
- Thread starter Sober
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DangerMouse
Member
Oooh. Oh yeah.
Finch:
Hell yeah that was Finch's progression this ep.
Can't wait to see what the Finch version of this looks like.
Hype!
lol yup. Can't compare Person of Interest to stuff like the 100. We knew they weren't all going to make it.
gundamkyoukai
Member
yep this has been setting up for years .
Even if the show had gotten a longer run i always saw this as the out come for Root .
The machine now having her voice makes everything come full circle .
DangerMouse
Member
Incendiary
Banned
Also POI's writers/producers/directors have never really baited the audience with LGBT stuff and hyping up Root/Shaw's relationship. It's been very understated through the whole thing so there's really no comparison.
LostMyNarbles
Member
Starting to wonder how the series is going to end. (Not spoilers below I'm just tagging what I think will happen).
I feel like the only way a positive outcome could occur would be if Samaritan is destroyed, but the Machine lives on. The Machine needs to survive so it can undo all of the disasters Samaritan has committed and attempt to dismantle its followers before any other attempts at recreating it are made. Otherwise Samaritan still has a massive network of government officials, private corporations, and "Assets" that can still carry out its will.
I suspect that everybody on team machine with the exception of possibly Fusco are going to be dead by the end of all of this. Greer will probably die on Samaritan's side, but that won't change the vast resources it will still have at its disposable. Maybe they will leave it with an ambiguous ending and just have Samaritan and The Machine survive to continue battling it out. Then pan to a shot of Finch's simulation to show that The Machine's odds greatly increased after he opens it up completely.
I suspect that everybody on team machine with the exception of possibly Fusco are going to be dead by the end of all of this. Greer will probably die on Samaritan's side, but that won't change the vast resources it will still have at its disposable. Maybe they will leave it with an ambiguous ending and just have Samaritan and The Machine survive to continue battling it out. Then pan to a shot of Finch's simulation to show that The Machine's odds greatly increased after he opens it up completely.
That ending would be so much like this show.
Finch:
I'm feeling like this too. Samaritan and everyone working for it needs to die painfully.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
So, what happened to Bear?
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Without Samaritan, the assets you mention are useless. They would have no information with which to carry out their corrective missions. It's pretty much equivalent to cutting off a snake's head. The assets also have lack technical experience so they won't be able to rebuild it like Harold has with the Machine.
XGRaViSmOrSX
Member
When that new dawn fades kicked in.....woooooooooo!!!
Such an amazing episode. This is gonna be a wild ass ride to the end.
Such an amazing episode. This is gonna be a wild ass ride to the end.
HungOverOnATues
Member
Shades of Illyria with the machine taking her voice.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Damn. Good catch.
Also I thought of Illyria at the end of the episode too.
I'm also so glad they portrayed Shaws reaction to the news. Just blank faced. But you know through the simulations what is really there underneath.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Kind of bored, so I'm watching the pilot again just to try to remember what the show was like when it started.
Beyond the fact that the show seemed to forget Harold was a billionaire who had his own security force (maybe Samaritan took that all away from him at some point), I noticed this shot when John and Harold first meet:
Which of course is how the episode last week ended when the team was reunited:
But maybe I'm just LTTP on this.
Beyond the fact that the show seemed to forget Harold was a billionaire who had his own security force (maybe Samaritan took that all away from him at some point), I noticed this shot when John and Harold first meet:
Which of course is how the episode last week ended when the team was reunited:
But maybe I'm just LTTP on this.
Ah yeah, I am LTTP. lolAlso, I love how they reuse locations:
Same place Finch recruited John and had some chats with him.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
The show never forgot that Harold was a billionaire. That was covered in the end of S3-beginning of S4. When they took on cover identities, Harold lost his funds and resources and warned the team that he would not be able to do corporate shenanigans that he once did. So they had to be frugal about asset management.
MaKTaiL
Member
Finch lost his fortune at the end of Season 3 when Team Machine was forced to take on new identities. Finch became a small teacher and didn't get payed very well.
Lord_Byron28
Member
I think Root knew she was going to die. The way she was acting and both of her speeches to Finch and Shaw make sense. I have a feeling as Reese pointed out that it listed Finch's number because of what he might do if Root died considering Finch's conversation with the machine at the beginning of the episode.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Ah, I totally don't remember that but that makes sense. lol
Funny that everyone who worked for him abandoned him though. Even Elias' old crew stuck with him.
Lord_Byron28
Member
and they also became some of the strongest allies on the hero's side.
Jay Shadow
Member
Entertainment Weekly with the spoiler and obviously click bait headline.
"Person of Interest death is TVs latest lesbian fatality" with Amy Acker's picture next to it.
"Person of Interest death is TVs latest lesbian fatality" with Amy Acker's picture next to it.
Incendiary
Banned
It's kind of frustrating that people boil down Root's character to simply "lesbian" and that's all people want to talk about - the episode itself was amazing, Finch's monologue, Elias' death, hell all the metaphysical talk with Root and being one with the Machine. And then Root's been this complex, tragic character from the beginning who went from hacker/monster with no morals to a God-worshipping devotee to actually caring about people. But she also happens to be a lesbian so let's make that the sticking point about the discussion!
Like, I get LGBT needs representation and all that, but this is the finale of a show where lots and lots of people have died. More main characters are likely going to die in the next three episodes, too. It just really frustrates me that Person of Interest is this great show with lots of plot threads and an amazing story but people choose to focus on one tiny aspect of a character for shipping purposes. I guess it's just the social climate right now, but it's just...bleh.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Agreed. There's so much to Root's character that I'm amazed people are just homing in on her sexuality.
Forgive the meme pic but it sums up my feelings pretty damn well.
Basically, Incendiary hit the nail on the head. It's going to suck seeing this sort of thing pop up (especially while i'm still grieving)
Context matters
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I mean, the tragic lesbian death is a trope I suppose, but this clearly wasn't a thing the show was trying to invoke.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Five moments:
Sam and Sam flirting while getting shot at:
Elias' death:
Root's death:
The Machine choosing Root's voice:
Finch's speech and subsequent escape:
You did.
"Can you get me out of here?"
Cue the darkness.
Sam and Sam flirting while getting shot at:
Elias' death:
Root's death:
The Machine choosing Root's voice:
Finch's speech and subsequent escape:
Can't wait to see what the Finch version of this looks like.
You did.
"Can you get me out of here?"
Cue the darkness.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Yea. Outside the disgusting attempt at click bait, to truly be representative and to be treated equally is to have the characters treated and respected as such. And this show did that with Root. Her orientation wasn't some big reveal or bid defining aspect. It's just a part of who she was, along with amazing computer skills, marksmanship, etc. To put these "bubbles" over groups that then can't have things happen to them no matter the context is counter to the whole push for the diversity/inclusion in the first place.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Like holy fuck, what an episode. Now you know you've officially entered end game territory. There can't be anymore random numbers. Finch has gone full dark side. The pot boiled over. His speech to the fed/Samaritan? Bone chilling.
Root's voice being used the Machine? Perfect.
Shaw and Root relationship was on fire this episode, a promise of a potential happy future, undercut by fresh tragedy. I nearly cried, I swear. All of Root's metaphysical stuff, just fantastic.
And Elias, finally meeting his end... and after all that, he met it trying to save his friend.
This is it, guys. We're reaching the end. No more rules.
Root's voice being used the Machine? Perfect.
Shaw and Root relationship was on fire this episode, a promise of a potential happy future, undercut by fresh tragedy. I nearly cried, I swear. All of Root's metaphysical stuff, just fantastic.
And Elias, finally meeting his end... and after all that, he met it trying to save his friend.
This is it, guys. We're reaching the end. No more rules.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Hoooooly shit.
Well, it's a thing worth discussing because killing off LGBT characters is a recognizably trope that is designated toward a particular group of people. There is also the argument to be made that it's a "kill her off to motivate the male lead" sort of thing, but...
This isn't to say no gay people should be killed, and I disagree with the main thrust of the argument until such a time as Shaw dies that the show's LGBT rep has been ruined. I mean, Root was a lesbian character who was in a romantic relationship with another lesbians, so if Shaw survives, I'd be willing to let the show pass because they equally defied the trope by letting Shaw live as much as they went into it.
But simply because a potentially problematic read of a show might be wrong doesn't mean it is bad to talk about such things. For example, suppose that this show had a black and fried chicken loving character. In this show, especially if they were a main character, they'd be more than that. They'd have some kind of special skill, with an interesting backstory, with plotlines that had poignant and engaging arcs. They'd be well written because they are in Person of Interest and the writers know their shit, by and large. Root was more than merely a lesbian, like you guys said.
But bringing such a depiction into question would be a good thing. In PoI's case, I think it works. As a final impetus for the machine to be truly freed, Root makes the most sense. John and Shaw don't have strong opinions on the machines freedom and leave it to Harry to decide because they are the shooty people, and if Fusco would have had opinions on it, it's too soon for him to make such judgements and nobody on the team speaks dog to ask Bear his invaluable opinion. So with Root being the one who has the closest relationship to both Harry and the machine, it honestly does make sense for her death to serve as the final proof of Root's argument that she should be freed.
And if we are truly to respect Root as a character, we have to recognize that, atleast in her own mind, she is not gone. She exists within the machine, all her information and therefore everything that she is, still exists. To ponder the meaning of her death, we have to ponder her last meaningful words. It's a death that meshes nicely with the themes and tone of the show, it is meaningful to Root herself, it wasn't gratuitous in it's depiction so it avoided fetishization, it may diminish the LGBT representation but it does not eliminate it as long as Shaw is in the game, it motivates Harry but it exists as more than that as well, a turning point, and progresses the story, not in a mere plot driven way of the machine being let out to do what it would, but it offers yet another way of looking at what humanity really is (a set of information), a story that will likely in some way be vitally important to the rest of the season.
But we can only recognize good depictions of deaths of LGBT characters if we question them, because stereotypes are a problem and there will be very much more deaths of LGBT characters that fall into the stereotype exactly. Understanding why one depiction works and why one doesn't is the only way other writers will have a chance of avoiding it, so discussing it is a good thing.
The article writer could have been more considerate with spoilers though.
OdysseusVA
Banned
Root :'(
Kill'em all, Finch.
Kill'em all, Finch.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
That was a great speech too:
"I have played by the rules for so long."
"Not from where I'm sitting."
"No, not your rules. You work at the behest of a system so broken, you didn't even notice when it became corrupted at its core. When I first broke your rules, a sitting president had authorized assassination squads in Laos and the head of the FBI had ordered his men, you, to conduct illegal surveillance on his political rivals. Your rules have changed every time it was convenient for you. I was talking about my rules. I have lived by the rules for so long. Believed in them for so long, believed that if you played by the right rules, eventually you would win. But I was wrong, wasn't I. And now all the people I cared about are dead, or will be dead soon enough. And we will be gone without a trace. So now I have to decide... decide whether to let my friends die, to let hope die, to let the world be ground under your heel all because I played by my rules. I'm trying to decide... I'm going to kill you. but I need to decide how far I'm will to go, how many of my own rules I'm willing to break, to get it done."
"Look you wanna add threatening the life of a federal agent to your file, I will draw up the charges right now. No waiting required."
"I wasn't talking to you."
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
"I have played by the rules for so long."
"Not from where I'm sitting."
"No, not your rules. You work at the behest of a system so broken, you didn't even notice when it became corrupted at its core. When I first broke your rules, a sitting president had authorized assassination squads in Laos and the head of the FBI had ordered his men, you, to conduct illegal surveillance on his political rivals. Your rules have changed every time it was convenient for you. I was talking about my rules. I have lived by the rules for so long. Believed in them for so long, believed that if you played by the right rules, eventually you would win. But I was wrong, wasn't I. And now all the people I cared about are dead, or will be dead soon enough. And we will be gone without a trace. So now I have to decide... decide whether to let my friends die, to let hope die, to let the world be ground under your heel all because I played by my rules. I'm trying to decide... I'm going to kill you. but I need to decide how far I'm will to go, how many of my own rules I'm willing to break, to get it done."
"Look you wanna add threatening the life of a federal agent to your file, I will draw up the charges right now. No waiting required."
"I wasn't talking to you."
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Honestly, I don't follow the discussion of this thread too much to avoid spoilers/theories. I didn't even know that there was an episode tonight until I checked. And since Shaw came back, I was expecting atleast one more chill episode, one with them reconnecting with Shaw, before shit blows up big once and for all.
So having...this episode, it was a huge surprise to me, and made that speech all the more effective.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Someone needs to do a Harold Finch version of these:
Wait a minute....
It's been suggested that Root knew she was going to die. Okay, but she only knew that because the machine would have predicted Samaritan sending up the shooter to kill her at that particular point.
It might be considered shady, but it might have also been root who willingly corroborated with the machine to engineer a situation wherein Harry would free the machine of his own will. Less a manipulation, especially if according to the simulations they'd all die anyway, and more of a strategic sacrifice, but the point is...
if the machine had accurately predicted Samaritan's move used it to optimize itself...did the machine just pull it's first legitimate win over Samaritan? At a cost, but a true victory?
It's been suggested that Root knew she was going to die. Okay, but she only knew that because the machine would have predicted Samaritan sending up the shooter to kill her at that particular point.
It might be considered shady, but it might have also been root who willingly corroborated with the machine to engineer a situation wherein Harry would free the machine of his own will. Less a manipulation, especially if according to the simulations they'd all die anyway, and more of a strategic sacrifice, but the point is...
if the machine had accurately predicted Samaritan's move used it to optimize itself...did the machine just pull it's first legitimate win over Samaritan? At a cost, but a true victory?
Incendiary
Banned
I don't mind having a discussion about it, and I agree that avoiding stereotypes is important and for writers to learn to make characters full-fledged and not just an "LGBT" character to appease the masses. My issue is that I saw a bunch of people saying things like "well, just found out POI killed the lesbian, I'm never gonna watch it now" or "wow I wasted all my time binge watching POI on Netflix to catch up because there's no point to the story anymore."
There are shows like The L Word and Orange is the New Black and others where there are gays and lesbians and the point of the show is relationships and things like that, where it's okay to be invested in relationships between characters because that's the point of the show. But on a show like this, where it's kind of been clear from early on that it's not a "happy ending, sunshine and rainbows" kind of show, to expect characters to have plot armor and survive just because of their sexuality and give up on the show when that doesn't happen? It's forcing the show to try and fit in the bubble you (this is a royal you) want and it becomes problematic because you're making well-developed characters into a stereotype yourself. On top of it, because of the social climate it's likely there are going to be people jumping in and making judgments about the show based on the trope when they haven't even watched the show themselves.
Anyway enough about that...when's the next episode?
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I'm destroyed. This is not fair. NOT FAIR. DAMN YOU, POI WRITERS.
Ohhh shit. It wasn't Root!
Wouldn't make sense, considering Finch taught the Machine about not using people as chess figures in a flashback in "If-Then-Else".
But maybe that's the point?
Ohhh shit. It wasn't Root!
Wouldn't make sense, considering Finch taught the Machine about not using people as chess figures in a flashback in "If-Then-Else".
But maybe that's the point?
Oh, there's no worries about that. The price of discussion is that you have about 100 worthless things said for every one thing of value, especially on less well moderated forums than gaf. Discussion is worth having, but that doesn't mean everything said is going to be intelligent. And sides, if a person is so fickle as that, they'll likely hear something about the show that will flip them back over the fence. "Oh, man root dies, that sucks...wait, bear has an episode where he eats a slipper, I AM SO IN"
Yeah, again, it's about doing it right, paying attention to the context, what more their character did. As I said, I think Root's death is very well done. It's just a point worth bringing up, even if it's a point wherein there are strong arguments to be had for disagreeing with it. I would rather have people be oversensitive about this thing, causing writers to atleast be mindful of when they do it, then undersensitive.
I don't think it's that, but that also brings in the point made last episode, about human free will. I don't think the machine created that scenerio by manipulation. I think, especially with how Root has been insisting this entire season how the machine needs to be freed, Root designed this scenerio. She sacrificed herself and worked with the machine to make this situation come to be.
Is that manipulation though? I mean, yes, it's an engineered situation to get some kind of reaction, but it's also something that is 1. inevitable, 2. something root chooses for herself, 3. it isn't a deception, but the reveal of a truth: that they are going to die doing this.
If you bring someone a piece of truth and they change their minds on that, then isn't that just the same as making a strong enough argument that they finally concede the point?
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Very good points. It would explain why Root had no resistence with closing the system, and even added code to enable a more defensive Machine if Finch decided to use it. They knew it was going to be used.
http://m.ign.com/articles/2016/06/01/person-of-interest-amy-acker-on-the-huge-change-to-her-role
Confirms the voice over in episode 1 of the season is indeed the Machine.
Confirms the voice over in episode 1 of the season is indeed the Machine.
Heh. Funny. I just remembered a little bit ago, I said the only one we knew for sure would make it to the finale was Root because of that voice over.
Writers sure pulled the rug out from under me.
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