everybody's except for liz's (because it is a grab). even then i think she's invul to grabs while shuffling towards you.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Persona 4: Arena |OT| Midnight's Just Around The Corner
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
everybody's except for liz's (because it is a grab). even then i think she's invul to grabs while shuffling towards you.
You can grab Liz out of her BD unless it's counter BD.
SolarKnight
Member
Oh yeah. That. I'm a simpleton.
One of us.
No it isn't, and that's the problem. A DP's negative frames are misleading because DPs frequently have huge hitboxes and cause the character doing them to move, meaning that they spend a lot of those negative frames up in the air or something. Yes, under most circumstances, a blocked DP will be punished, but there are a few things that make Mitsuru's difficult to punish for a DP. For starters, the fact that it goes off on a 45 degree angle means that if she DPs on wakeup, she will likely cross you up and spend all of the recovery frames on the opposite side of the side that she started on; this means that if you are to straight block and punish, it is fairly possible to whiff and attack the wrong way. There's also the giant hitbox, which limits what you can punish with by effectively pushing you out of range.
DPs have short recovery in this game, and Mitsuru's has an amazing hitbox for any game. That's a pretty great combination.
EDIT: I was previously unaware that cancelling into super actually makes her DP safe on block. Holy shit. That's just insane. You can't even argue that that shit's balanced.
Can't you just roll to avoid the super and punish her, though?
You can with Yu, don't know with Mitsuru, haven't tested it yet.
How can anyone actually play this online? It's like playing underwater, it's so terrible. SF4, Marvel and SFXT have absolutely 0 problems for me, but this game has a huge delay, even when I'm connecting to local people with 4 bar connections...
Frustrating as all hell. Going to have to get my PVP kicks at the arcade.
Frustrating as all hell. Going to have to get my PVP kicks at the arcade.
I'm a euro player, so I only get to play zero bar matches against american or japanese guys, and up until now I've only ever had one game that was really unplayable.
SFxT is ok for you but not P4A?
You seem to work on the opposite spectrum of "good netplay": I would suggest you to try KOFXIII, on the off chance it applies to this game as well. ^^
SFxT is ok for you but not P4A?
You seem to work on the opposite spectrum of "good netplay": I would suggest you to try KOFXIII, on the off chance it applies to this game as well. ^^
Yep, SFXT is superb in comparison. I quite literally can feel no difference between net play and local (the same goes for SF4 and Marvel), but P4A I simply cannot enjoy. I am inside Japan, playing with other Japanese players on 4 bar connections. I'm on a fiber optic line and it should be fine. No idea what is going on, but there is a significant lag delay on every action.
Only if you don't attempt to punish the DP or punish the DP really, really early.
Im confused then. Really no reason it should be this bad for me.
Hmmm, so you should always roll after Mitsuru's DP if she has some meter then.
Can you punish her if you roll and she doesn't do her super? If so, problem solved! If not, well, her DP is more or less safe when she has meter.
i don't see why this is such a big issue. if you are looking to bait a dp and it comes out, i can guarantee you that you will have enough time to punish it correctly. if they have 50 meter, then they will most likely super to try and catch you from punishing the dp, in that case you roll to punish the super or block and punish after. how is this different from doing an unsafe move in blazblue and RC'ing it, or doing an unsafe move in marvel and x factoring it?
try to think of how shitty it is for that person who dp's, super cancels, then gets punished. they lose 50 meter and take extra damage due to the r-action + super cancel.
i will give you that mitsuru's dp is probably one of the best in the game, considering it's anti-cross up, anti dash under, falls pretty fast. however it's not unpunishable, even with meter. whenever you block mitsuru's dp, you can always do an air combo punish before she hits the ground. it's not ideal, but it's guaranteed damage. and if she super cancels it, the super is still punishable.
once you familiarize yourself with every r action and how to punish them accordingly, it won't be that much of an issue when someone throws it out.
yeah, i remember reading they have armor from frame 1. so it's not safe for you to mash it during someone's block string, because you'll get CH out during the start up frame
Hmmm, so you should always roll after Mitsuru's DP if she has some meter then.
Can you punish her if you roll and she doesn't do her super? If so, problem solved! If not, well, her DP is more or less safe when she has meter.
the roll takes too long. if you roll after you block their dp, then you are letting them get away for free. roll after the super flash
What?
A DP is supposed to be high risk. That's why it has invulnerability frames, high damage, and big reach. As soon as it's not high risk, it becomes a major issue of balance.
If you roll and she doesn't super cancel, she'll just hit you for free.Hmmm, so you should always roll after Mitsuru's DP if she has some meter then.
Can you punish her if you roll and she doesn't do her super? If so, problem solved! If not, well, her DP is more or less safe when she has meter.
If they super cancel, you'll get CH'd out of 5C.
http://www.twitch.tv/adastream
Koichi v fab ft10
Koichi v fab ft10
once someone has 50 meter, nothing becomes a high risk. again. this is the same as in blazblue, and to some extent, street fighter 4. people can just throw out moves, because if they're blocked, they can make it safe. so again, how is this any different?
and super cancelling your dp is a high risk for exactly the reasons i mentioned. you lose 50 meter and you take extra damage due to both the r-action and the super cancel. how are these in addition to the punish not making this sort of action high risk?
TomcatTheLion
Member
Oh man I have to get in some games soon. Don't want rust to kick in already despite being seduced by GW2. >_<
She can only super cancel once she touches the floor. Hit her before she lands (at least I remember doing this, I have only fought two Mitsurus online since I started playing).
Finished Labrys', Yu's and Akihiko's stories.
Did not expect Labyrs' story to be so, so good.
Based on the way Yu's and Akihiko's end,
Did not expect Labyrs' story to be so, so good.
Based on the way Yu's and Akihiko's end,
it seems at least reasonable to assume that either Persona 5 will pick up from here, OR they are leaving themselves the option for a P5A after it.
What are the current theories on the identity of the hacker/mastermind?
What are the current theories on the identity of the hacker/mastermind?
Most DPs in BB are not RCable. There's also not a single one that can be made safe on block by cancelling into a super. As well, most of the DPs that aren't guard point are well over -20 on block (Litchi's is -23 and is not special cancellable nor is it RCable, and it's one of the strongest and safest DPs in the game). The DPs that are guard point are... guard point, and therefore aren't invincible or real DPs.
The closest BlazBlue gets is Ragna, and Ragna spends 50 heat just to not have his DP punished; he's still, best case scenario, blocking afterwards. He also can't get nearly as much damage off of his DPs, even with 50 heat. They're also -30 and -39 on block. I would bet that Mitsuru's DP is somewhere around half of that.
The special cancel isn't high risk because it's a mixup. You don't have to do it, and if you convince your opponent that you will, you can get out of being punished out of your DP for absolutely no cost, and that's crazy. And if you do do it and your opponent guesses that you won't, congratulations on your unprorated super.
It wouldn't be a huge deal if it weren't for the fact that Mitsuru has amazing pokes and history's greatest neutral game.
you named one dp that's not RC'able. as far as i can remember from BB, ragna has one, jin has one (4, actually), makoto has one, tsubaki has one (4 also?), and hazama has a pretty iffy one. i'm pretty sure if memory serves, all of these are RC'able
ragna spends 50 heat to have his DP not punished, or in otherwards, to make his dp safe. except super cancelling cancels into a super isn't safe if the super is blocked.
it's a mixup for BOTH parties. if you don't do it and they punish you then it sucks for you. if you do it and they block and punish you for more, it sucks even more for you. yes the reverse is possible where he lets you get away with it, but you don't know he'll do that. it's not as much a mixup as it is a gamble.
also, this isn't even for most dps. this is pretty much only for mitsuru's. all the other dp's can be circumvented so you can always punish them. and i can tell you right now, mitsuru isn't top tier just because her dp is top tier. there are far greater problems when fighting mitsuru, such as her 5a and coup droit having anti-air hitboxes (somehow) or how she controls almost all the space on the screen with any of her moves.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Spoiler thread is here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=486555
You should finish Mitsuru, Aigis, Naoto, and Elizabeth at the very least as the rest of the P4 cast storylines are pretty similar.
Ah, thanks! Missed that.
I think everyone can punish Mitsuru DP when she's still in the air so she can't do anything, if you need a "guaranteed" punish. If not then you can wait a split second as they land then do a fast normal. If they did super you block if not you get a punish. Sure they can delay the super but I haven't had that happen yet. Mitsuru DP is great but it's not broken.
Also this might be a troll dunno, but I saw an interesting tweet this week.
Rokunaya ‏@Rokunaya
SKD the GOD made a safe os after mitsuru dp to kill her no matter what she does at any range, I LOVE this man
Also this might be a troll dunno, but I saw an interesting tweet this week.
Rokunaya ‏@Rokunaya
SKD the GOD made a safe os after mitsuru dp to kill her no matter what she does at any range, I LOVE this man
Are there any good "tutorial" style videos out there that I may have missed? To be honest I'm having a really hard time getting a feel for how to attack in this game. It's so different from Capcom games.
I'm playing Mitsuru, who I realize is getting a lot of stick for being cheap, too good, or whatever, but of all the characters I've played she's the only one I feel I can actually do combos with comfortably. Think I'll stick with her, especially as a huge unapologetic fanboy of the Persona series, she was always the mainstay of my party in P3 and P3P. Great character, overall.
Probably doesn't help that on top of the lag I mentioned I'm suffering from, it seems everyone in Japan is already full professional at this game and I have no idea where to even start.
I watched all the videos Cross Counter uploaded (with Gootecks) but despite being seemingly beginner-oriented, they really don't ever go over simple ways to attack / open up opponents, what kind of movement to be prioritizing, etc. It's all about meter management, and I'm not anywhere near the point that I can be worrying about stuff like that.
I'm playing Mitsuru, who I realize is getting a lot of stick for being cheap, too good, or whatever, but of all the characters I've played she's the only one I feel I can actually do combos with comfortably. Think I'll stick with her, especially as a huge unapologetic fanboy of the Persona series, she was always the mainstay of my party in P3 and P3P. Great character, overall.
Probably doesn't help that on top of the lag I mentioned I'm suffering from, it seems everyone in Japan is already full professional at this game and I have no idea where to even start.
I watched all the videos Cross Counter uploaded (with Gootecks) but despite being seemingly beginner-oriented, they really don't ever go over simple ways to attack / open up opponents, what kind of movement to be prioritizing, etc. It's all about meter management, and I'm not anywhere near the point that I can be worrying about stuff like that.
Prototype-03
Member
I think they all are except Litchi's.
Hopefully we can agree it's still top 2, if not, the best DP in the game.
Are there any good "tutorial" style videos out there that I may have missed? To be honest I'm having a really hard time getting a feel for how to attack in this game. It's so different from Capcom games.
I'm playing Mitsuru, who I realize is getting a lot of stick for being cheap, too good, or whatever, but of all the characters I've played she's the only one I feel I can actually do combos with comfortably. Think I'll stick with her, especially as a huge unapologetic fanboy of the Persona series, she was always the mainstay of my party in P3 and P3P. Great character, overall.
Probably doesn't help that on top of the lag I mentioned I'm suffering from, it seems everyone in Japan is already full professional at this game and I have no idea where to even start.
I watched all the videos Cross Counter uploaded (with Gootecks) but despite being seemingly beginner-oriented, they really don't ever go over simple ways to attack / open up opponents, what kind of movement to be prioritizing, etc. It's all about meter management, and I'm not anywhere near the point that I can be worrying about stuff like that.
Are you playing on X360? Did you download the patch? If you've downloaded it, and you're still getting lag, that probably means your Xbox is about to die.
As for movement the same idea applies from Street Fighter. Know the ranges of your normals and how much whiff recovery they have. Practice your anti-airs, blah blah blah. Once you get your basic game down everything adds onto that.
The thing with the movement that took the most getting used to for me was the constant dashing. Staying mobile requires a lot of dexterity but it's important enough to gamplay that it's worth developing those skills. I only just learned how to instant air-dash yesterday and still need to work on applying it consistently.
Has anyone else made a habit of immediately turning with A+C every time you jump? I can't think of a reason not to since it sets you up for air-dashing mixups and usually changes the properties of certain moves in your favor. (Venfayth showed me that Elizabeth's D grab in mid-air reaches farther just by air-turning.)
Has anyone else made a habit of immediately turning with A+C every time you jump? I can't think of a reason not to since it sets you up for air-dashing mixups and usually changes the properties of certain moves in your favor. (Venfayth showed me that Elizabeth's D grab in mid-air reaches farther just by air-turning.)
Since you're playing Mitsuru, you can deal with anything your opponent does. Basically, if they aren't doing anything, you can start your mixups (grab, 4B fatal, AOA, etc). If they're doing things like trying to jump at you or attacking at long range, you have ways to deal with it. You want to move yourself in a position where you can comfortably deal with whatever your opponent wants to do and where you can comfortably do what you want. At the very least, that's how I'm approaching learning this game.
If you're not gonna cross up, using A+D will just leave you vulnerable.
Suggesting KoF13 was the perfect response. =)
This page has been a trip. I'm reading about poor design from a dude with a Litchi avatar.
Prototype-03
Member
My internet isn't even very good and the online works great for me (and I've asked other players how my connection was to be sure).
Sorry you're having problems though.
Really? I thought it didn't matter which way your character is facing as long as you're holding the direction opposite of the opponent to block. (otherwise you'd always get opened up when sandwiched between a character and a persona)
Does Liz still grab behind her when you're turned? And does she lunge during the turn or something to get that extra range?
Thanatos still shoots out towards the opponent regardless of which way Liz is facing. Something about the turning allows you to keep some of your initial velocity and momentum from when you started the jump, and how far Thanatos shoots out seems to be directly tied to Liz's velocity.
Or I could be completely wrong. I was never great with physics.
So you're using air D, right? Not air C+D?
Yeah, D is the Thanatos grab where he bites you and tosses you back towards Liz. C+D in mid-air is the "slam dunk."
If you do that, every time you jump, your immediate control of the space in front of you is gone. Also, for cross-ups, you're trying to make it look ambiguous. If you just all of a sudden flew over to the other side back first, it's pretty clear which side you're going to attack from(even more so if you're char has no backwards hitting hitboxes).
And on Mitsuru DP's... you need to tag her in the air as she falls, she can only cancel into Bufudyne after she touches ground. Using an IB can probably allow you to score a fatal counter with some chars. So there's a couple options at knockdown...
Hit her out of midair on the way down. a well-timed dash through could work too, bufu is punishable on whiff. Or time a cross under that would distort the input interpretter, and Bufu doesn't even come out.
Yeah, that's how people seemed to deal with Yu's DP during SBO.
Sounds like the better option of them all, to me.
GotchaForce
Member
Got second place in a local tourney with Teddie. Was free to a dude playing Kanji, really got to learn that match.
SolarKnight
Member
I think he means the tutorial is more about meter management, not the game.
Oh. Well if gootecks is in the video, then it will be about meter management. Attacking in this game isn't like SF. There's pokes, but that's not where the main source of damage comes from.
This is the only video I watched for overal mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMRH2JeCG0I&feature=watch_response Watch a few match vids to get a general understanding on how matches play out.