Prototype-03
Member
To be fair, if someone asked me, I'd still play. I don't completely hate the game but it's frustrating when there are easy button out for certain situations. The worst part is that it's universal.
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Persona 4: Arena |OT| Midnight's Just Around The Corner
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
To be fair, if someone asked me, I'd still play. I don't completely hate the game but it's frustrating when there are easy button out for certain situations. The worst part is that it's universal.
Roe Bear left in the middle (he played 2 matches), so essentially, we really only had 4 people.
But, it lasted about an hour, and I think it went fine.
Yep, always around 8.
Though since sgnups close around 7:30 PM, we can just get started as soon as the bracket's up. If you're not there until 8 though, that's perfectly fine.
Make sure it's in tourney, so it's official!
Sadly, it's part of the game, but I can't imagine fighting Aigis without that threat either...
Would love to, but Saturdays this entire month have been busy for me. Just really unfortunate timing :|
Heh, AE made its return at my work, so I've played it a little bit and god it's been so long I was AWFUL, barely winning against a flowchart Ken. I still had the P4A button layout ingrained in me, I was trying to tech with MP+MK, and was doing my EX moves with LP+LK or MP+MK. ^^Playing SFIVAE and going back to being an absolute scrub hurts me inside so much.I can barely manage to win a round much less an entire match in ranked. I think my win rate with Makoto is like 5%
I forgot like 80% of the Makoto setups I had when I stopped playing the game, it was quite painful, but also quite a joy to return to her a little bit: I still love the character so damn much. Anyways, don't know how much you've played with her, but she really demands a lot of practice and knowledge about her; if you don't know any meaty setups or safe jumps, good luck winning a match with her. She's no Mitsuru, but I'm sure you already know this.
Heh, AE made its return at my work, so I've played it a little bit and god it's been so long I was AWFUL, barely winning against a flowchart Ken. I still had the P4A button layout ingrained in me, I was trying to tech with MP+MK, and was doing my EX moves with LP+LK or MP+MK. ^^
I forgot like 80% of the Makoto setups I had when I stopped playing the game, it was quite painful, but also quite a joy to return to her a little bit: I still love the character so damn much. Anyways, don't know how much you've played with her, but she really demands a lot of practice and knowledge about her; if you don't know any meaty setups or safe jumps, good luck winning a match with her. She's no Mitsuru, but I'm sure you already know this.
Ya shes a 100% setup based character. My makoto is like day 2 at this point, so I only know of about 3 setups off her sweep and im still really inconsistent pulling any of the three off. I always loved the character but just never bothered to actually try and learn her until now. The new gafbat season certainly helped.
Im up for games anytime Geneijin, im just on SFIV PC so just shoot a post or pm here and I'll play. Yosuke needs to taste some rapier
I'd suggest you take a look at her setups off a back-throw: they're easier to do than the ones off a sweep, and integrate well into her whole "hit or throw" gameplan.
Off the top of my head you can either:
* f.MP, neutral jump MK for a safe jump
* f.MP, neutral jump LP xx LK xx blockakusa (once they start blocking the previous one)
* MP fukiage xx MP for a meaty MP
* HP fukiage xx LP karakusa for a meaty karakusa (once they start blocking the previous one -- the difference between a MP or HP fukiage is not easy to recognize)
* f.HK hold for a cross-over, which you can follow with quite anything you want (very useful against charge characters)
And of course the usual "just a step forward and jump for a MK cross-up, or a non-crossup HP".
Also take a quick look at the setups after a HP / EX orochi (empty jump crossup meaty HP orochi // backdash empty jump LK karakusa if I remember well). With that, you should quickly start to kick some arses with her!
Back to the topic, I had so much work lately that my Elizabeth doesn't get the time she deserves. It's a shame, since it happens just as I was starting to hit some kind of "plateau" with her, which leaves me with a bad impression for the moment.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Ok, I'm signed for Saturday. How does this work btw? A private lobby and I just get an invite before this starts? Sorry for the noobish questions but I'm not good with fighting game.
Ragingnight
Member
i don't mind the accessibility of some moves (reversals). Not all reversal are good though (chie/naoto). Honestly I rather lose to a player that play better than me then to win because I can do moves and better combos.
I mean if dp was traditional style srk motions, its not like playing against a competent opponent would change the situation. It would only help against fighting bad players that can't do srk motions consistently.
Fighting games (imo) shouldn't all be about execution. Things like spacing and meter management are what I find more important and I like how PErsona makes the game more accessible (though I wished they took away the 3rd hit on autocombo giving a ton of burst meter).
Prototype-03
Member
There are a few things about SRK in two buttons. You have autocorrect (which was stupid in SF4 also) and the reaction time. You can just be pressing down back and then DP all of a sudden with the press of two buttons.
It's not just SRK either. The roll is one of the weirdest additions. You can put someone in the corner then they can roll out. I don't mean to call out onemic but one of the questions he had in BB was "how do I get out in the corner? I don't have a roll." Sure, you can throw your opponent but in my opinion, it's an easy two button out.
The AOA is annoying too. Not only is it overhead, but it has super armor also. Yeah, it's slow before the SA kicks in but it's just two buttons for overhead. Sweep also to a lesser extent.
And because of these reasons, I think the game is a bit shallower than the other Arc games. I do get overwhelmed by the terminologies in GG, such as jump install, 1 frame jumps, frc's, etc. but it could be what GG players felt when going to BB. I think that BB is really deep but for GG players, it's a very simplified GG. To me, p4a is a very simplified BB and not in a good way.
I know some of you like the simplified buttons and argue that that's what makes it deep. I disagree in the fact that nobody should react the same way. For example, in the corner, your first thought shouldn't be "when can I roll so I can put my opponent in the corner?" It should be "what can I do in this certain situation that I can get out." There is a definite difference in those two sentences. The first one, ANY character, whether be Kanji or Yosuke, and no matter who your opponent is, can get out of. The second one, it depends who YOUR character is and who your OPPONENT's character is. You need to know what the options the other character has versus what your tools are to put it to your advantage. Again, I feel like it's an oversimplified method.
Don't get me wrong, at the core, the game is still extremely fun. The two buttons kinda annoy me and I cannot say it's a great game because of it. My gag reflexes doesn't kick in like when I think about Extend, but it's enough that I can critique about it. I guess at the bottom of it all, I'm trying to say is that while I do not enjoy it as much as some of you do because of the above reasons, there should be no reason why YOU shouldn't enjoy it because of my opinions.
Ragingnight
Member
Hm I can see where you are coming from with SRK. I don't 100% agree but that is just opinions. Yeah Auto corrects are stupid but in this day and age you just got to accept it. What game doesn't have an auto correct DP nowadays? (haven't played much BB so not sure about that)
Rolling is a KOF thing. I have no problem with rolling because I grew up playing KOF98 and to some extent CVS2. Rolling was an option but a punishable one. So for me I don't really see it as an issue, rather more as another option that a player can use. But if you haven't played KOFs or CVS1/2 then I can see why you would dislike it.
AoA I can kind of agree on. I think its a tad too much, and should be way more punishable considering the risk/reward.
Sweep I'm meh about. pressing down and two buttons vs pressing down+RH doesn't make a difference to me.
but I do see what you mean and understand where you are coming from. I hate it when I lose to dumb shit but I learn to accept it or move on. I mean 3s had tons of broken shit that took almost no setup but I still believe its the most fun I have ever had in a fighter.
SolarKnight
Member
Do you feel the same about rolls in something like KoF or CvS2, or is it something specific to P4A?
Prototype-03
Member
Haven't played either so I can't say.
edit: I'm a late bloomer when it comes to 2D fighters. Started taking it seriously with SF4. Was mainly a 3D fighter before that.
Ragingnight
Member
That would explain a few things. Rolls were always an option in KOF and in CVS1/2 but they were very punishable* if read. So instead of being a free way out, it was more like another option that you have to your disposal.
*until roll cancel were figured out in CVS2
I don't see the issue with roll. Against a smart opponent, you can easily be thrown out of it or get punished by something like 2A at the end of it. It's not really an "easy" way out and if you let them get out, well it's kinda your fault.
3 main ways to punish it according to DacidBro.
3 main ways to punish it according to DacidBro.
KOF has rolls too!
The reason why KOF has rolls is because the corner game is very important and once you get stuck there its really hard to get out. Extend seems like the exact same thing in terms of how lethal the corner game is, but instead they removed an option that lets you get out of that pressure resulting in being frustratingly stuck there once your opponent has you cornered. With the type of game it is, I just felt like it would make sense if it was there, especially with much of the criticism about the gameplay in Extend being about how the game is too corner based. Rolls are super easy to punish too and P4A is no exception. Getting a counter throw from a roll out of the corner for 3.2k always makes me happy. <3
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
KOF has rolls too!
The reason why KOF has rolls is because the corner game is very important and once you get stuck there its really hard to get out. Extend seems like the exact same thing in terms of how lethal the corner game is, but instead they removed an option that lets you get out of that pressure resulting in being frustratingly stuck there once your opponent has you cornered. With the type of game it is, I just felt like it would make sense if it was there, especially with much of the criticism about the gameplay in Extend being about how the game is too corner based. Rolls are super easy to punish too and P4A is no exception. Getting a counter throw from a roll out of the corner for 3.2k always makes me happy. <3
You get out of corners with a smart dead angle, persona has this option as well. As well as instant blocking.
BB has barriers which you need to learn how to use properly and when to make breathing room as it leaves you in block stun longer, although instant barrier blocking pushes back even further if you want to combine to two.
BB is pretty much about knowing when to attack and with what to a pretty large degree with the exception of a few characters.
The complaints about BB is that it's too corner based, getting someone in the corner is a reward. The complaint was that you could ONLY do damage in the corner for pretty much the entire cast. Also the guard primer system is ass
KOF has rolls too!
The reason why KOF has rolls is because the corner game is very important and once you get stuck there its really hard to get out. Extend seems like the exact same thing in terms of how lethal the corner game is, but instead they removed an option that lets you get out of that pressure resulting in being frustratingly stuck there once your opponent has you cornered. With the type of game it is, I just felt like it would make sense if it was there, especially with much of the criticism about the gameplay in Extend being about how the game is too corner based. Rolls are super easy to punish too and P4A is no exception. Getting a counter throw from a roll out of the corner for 3.2k always makes me happy. <3
Yeah, I can't ever do Evasive Action against this guy and Twilt.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I hope they fix that in BBCP. Corners shouldn't be required for most of the cast to do big damage.
Prototype-03
Member
I agree. There are characters like Bang, whose sole purpose is to carry you into the corner and oki the crap out of you, but there should be no reason why ALL characters should do that.
Prototype-03
Member
anyone wanna play? i'm drunk and ready to play!
Prototype-03
Member
Sounds good! I just defeated Taurus but I can't go any longer in Dark Souls without dying when I'm drunk.
Prototype-03
Member
Invited you. It's PS3 update. Also, what's your name on psn, geneijin?
PSN: Kopyasu
Prototype-03
Member
Oh you're already on my flist. Invited both.
edit: going to get another glass of bourbon.
Prototype-03
Member
and I can't play Naoto when drunk.
edit: y'all missed an insta gold burst into IK with aigis. No amount of money can fill this glee.
That Ik was so stupid. I blocked it, thought it was open for a punish.....Nope shes still shooting! *dead* :<
Prototype-03
Member
Should watch all of them if you're a big fan. Better yet, you should just get the game.
GGs guys. I have learned that I am horrible when drunk. I will attempt IKs at the most random times. And they will connect.
Waking up to safety out of the corner is probably more free in GG/BB. You can insta-back dash in those. P4 restricts that and rolls have start-up, not to mention you can catch them for an FC.
As for B+D, if you're not getting destroyed for that (unless you're Mits or Yosuke) then you still have a ways to go. CH state thru recovery makes it a serious gamble, but a nice one for the Labryses.
As for B+D, if you're not getting destroyed for that (unless you're Mits or Yosuke) then you still have a ways to go. CH state thru recovery makes it a serious gamble, but a nice one for the Labryses.
Prototype-03
Member
Because backdashes put your opponent into corner? Even if you backdash, you're still in the corner. The whole roll thing, however, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. It's not something I like but I do understand other games have implemented them and have worked out fine. I just personally don't like it. No matter what you tell me, right now, I stand at "I don't like." There is really not much to argue against that. Again, don't let what I think deter what you think about the game and I may change my stance later on.
The DP issue, you're arguing the wrong points. I do know that you can block and punish, but mind you, it's not only Mitsuru or Yosuke that can make them safe... MOST of the characters can super cancel (including Lab, Aigis, Akihiko, Yu, etc etc). It makes FADC look like a stroke of genius to be honest. Also, DPs shouldn't be two buttons, and that's my issue. You have to do a dragon punch motion then press two buttons? Fine. But my biggest beef is that you can be blocking and just be mashing it out. Even in SF4, with the shortcut, it's still df, df+punch, which means you have to get out of the block. In fact, you don't need to buffer AT all in p4a. It can be a LAST minute thing. You were blocking the whole time but suddenly see an ambiguous cross up? B+D!!! No need to input anything else. Of course, it's worse with characters like Yu and Mitsuru, which have ridiculously good DPs, but you get my point.
Master Milk
Member
I've seen people use this argument before, and I've started to wonder if the way people play Persona is different than other fighters. I can't recall too many times I've seen people play radically different compared to other fighters. There was that different of two MC's DP clashing for the last 15 seconds or something, but other than that . . .
My thing is, if the way people play the game doesn't fundamentally change, why does the way moves are input matter? Yea, it's easier for people to do what they want to do, so what? If they have a shitty gameplan, it doesn't matter how easy it is for them to execute. If their opponent is out-thinking them, again, it doesn't matter how easy it is to mash DP. People have been mashing DP forever anyway, two buttons or not.
Yosuke can't make his safe, and his DP can punish certain things like Mitsuru's j.B, but the conditions are super specific to be allowed to even get a punish.
I should've said away from the corner. In the corner it's a great option but there's startup unlike KoF/CvS (far, far more abusable online). Once I played an Akihiko that could react and FC me for 7k, it got moved down the option list fast. Also, you needed a corner option in the game since you don't get rolling oki like BB. That's part of what makes Mitsuru extra stupid is she can pressure you for free from roll punishing range.
But I know where you're coming from because I hated having to account for rolls until I had to (but it's hilarious when you bait it). It's like bad MvC2/3 players not accounting for everything being cancellable (me).
Not sure how B+D makes FADC look genius. You get a dumb super guessing game whereas FADC gives you the advantage back for another mix-up. The super itself isn't safe and depending on who you play, you can OS and punish either way (Akihiko duck > 6A+B). P4 puts you in CH lag in other of those outcomes. As for having to buffer, I understand wanted people to "earn" their moves but modern fighters have been letting me buffer DPs with extreme leniency in block stun/wake up and return to block for free anyways and older fighters made those moves hard to punish.
Because reversals are too easy when it's only two buttons. At least with an SRK motion, you could crossup and potentially make the DP whiff as they still would have to guess. But with a simplified DP, you don't have to commit to the DP on defense and that's the problem.
P4A does require two button reversals, IMO. Otherwise the offense would be totally out of control.
In this game you get opened up so fast that you don't even have time to think about whether you want to do a DP or not.
That's because the offense is badly designed. Aigis does way too much damage midscreen for what's her BnB, Mitsuru has crazy corner carry, Yu's offense is pretty braindead, Chie's oki game is absurdly strong (unless she's against Teddie), and Elizabeth has monster damage.
Prototype-03
Member
It's designed fine, you may just not like it. There's a method to Arc's madness of piling broken-looking shit and they have a well designed defense to deal with it. Marvel3 took much of it but left in some old Marvel hooks and elements like forced air techs > dead. However, P4 does make it easier than ever to abuse some characters' basics gameplans well past other characters' beginner level.
Let's be real here, 2 button reversals weren't designed because the game has terrifying offense. It might be better if the player wasn't able to mash the reversal and have to time it but that isn't the case. Most of this can be traced back to the fact that the game was designed with beginners in mind though.
Right, there's no timing or thought process involved. Especially when you can have it macrod and you have a one button reversal that auto corrects at any given time. The problem is you dont have to REACT to mixups, it's too lenient.
Aigis and Mitsuru weren't designed "fine." How often have you actually fought against an Aigis and defended that high-low blockstring and that j.B ambiguous crossups of hers, which has 8 active frames?
Many attacking options in this game don't require thought to execute, so it's an eye for an eye to me. I've eaten enough Aigis and Mitsuru overheads to learn that the hard way.
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