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Persona 4: Arena |OT| Midnight's Just Around The Corner

S

shtkn

Member
rolls in p4 aren't THAT good:
1-2F vulnerable
3-24F strike/projectile invincible
33F total duration
Counter Hit state from 3F onward

so there's 2 frame of vulnerable startup, 9 frames of vulnerable recovery (+ counter hit for even bigger damage), and you can throw them the whole time.
 
G

Grifter

Member
Geneijin said:
Aigis and Mitsuru weren't designed "fine." How often have you actually fought against an Aigis and defended that high-low blockstring and that j.B ambiguous crossups of hers, which has 8 active frames?
Click to expand...

I play Aigis and against a very good one, so many times? I've been blocking the high-low online but can argue that she's the best, tho Mits has 8k combos now that actually seem hard to drop. It's a great guessing game, but she has a difficult-to-manage meter that you can exploit, 0 damage outside it, and it's actually hard to make her strings tight where you can't roll or DP out.

As for j.B, it's rarely truly ambiguous and usually high enough to duck and react if she's doing the air turn.
 
M

Master Milk

Member
Geneijin said:
Because reversals are too easy when it's only two buttons. At least with an SRK motion, you could crossup and potentially make the DP whiff as they still would have to guess. But with a simplified DP, you don't have to commit to the DP on defense and that's the problem.
Click to expand...

You haven't addressed why this matters if the way people play the game hasn't changed. People aren't down-backing for 98 seconds waiting for the timer to run down because they're scared of how easy it is for their opponent to DP whatever offense they try to launch.

Simpler motions don't affect whether you have to commit to your DP or not. The properties of the DP itself do, and the situation you're in, of course.

Solune said:
Right, there's no timing or thought process involved. Especially when you can have it macrod and you have a one button reversal that auto corrects at any given time. The problem is you dont have to REACT to mixups, it's too lenient.
Click to expand...

Basically, people can mash DP? Okay, so your mashed DP always comes out, whereas in other games you'd actually have to have some semblance of execution to reliably mash DP. So? Being able to mash DP only makes it easier for scrubs to lose mashing DP.

~~~

I feel like you guys want to say that DP's are too good in this game. But that's definitely not something I can agree with.
 
S

Solune

Member
Master Milk said:
Simpler motions don't affect whether you have to commit to your DP or not. The properties of the DP itself do, and the situation you're in, of course.
Click to expand...
It does, I'll give you an example. When Yosuke is gliding in, he can control it to make it pretty ambiguous, but that requires him to obviously be in the air. While coming down whether he's crossed you up already doesn't matter, you can push a button without having to know which side he's going to be on to beat him. THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE A REACTION, you just need the visual cue.

I won't go into baiting etc because I'm not trying to talk down to you.
Basically, people can mash DP? Okay, so your mashed DP always comes out, whereas in other games you'd actually have to have some semblance of execution to reliably mash DP. So? Being able to mash DP only makes it easier for scrubs to lose mashing DP.

~~~

I feel like you guys want to say that DP's are too good in this game. But that's definitely not something I can agree with.
Click to expand...

It's not only when you're in a blockstring and you're mashing, it's that you don't have to react to anything, at a push of a button you can counter an attack without even thinking. Whether your opponent is going for a jump-on, cross-up, throw, meaty projectile, one button counters all of that. Also I haven't lost to scrubs, that's not the issue. Like auto-combo, it promotes lazy play.
 
G

Geneijin

Member
Master Milk said:
You haven't addressed why this matters if the way people play the game hasn't changed. People aren't down-backing for 98 seconds waiting for the timer to run down because they're scared of how easy it is for their opponent to DP whatever offense they try to launch.
Click to expand...
I already did. It's why there's no momentum in this game.

Simpler motions don't affect whether you have to commit to your DP or not. The properties of the DP itself do, and the situation you're in, of course.
Click to expand...
Yes, it does. Because there's no need to buffer, there's no commitment involved in the DP.

I feel like you guys want to say that DP's are too good in this game. But that's definitely not something I can agree with.
Click to expand...
Way to miss the point.
 
V

VanillaCakeIsBurning

Member
DP's are pretty easy in this game. Since you don't have to actually input the command, reaction time for attacks are increased, since instead of having to input a command then press a button, you only have to press the button, this way you do not have to account for what direction you are looking at as well.

The game's still fun, I don't have a problem with pointing out some potential flaws though.
 
P

Prototype-03

Member
PoorFate said:
DP's are pretty easy in this game. Since you don't have to actually input the command, reaction time for attacks are increased, since instead of having to input a command then press a button, you only have to press the button, this way you do not have to account for what direction you are looking at as well.

The game's still fun, I don't have a problem with pointing out some potential flaws though.
Click to expand...

Thank you. This is exactly what I mean. For me, p4a is still a fun game. Just not the best because of the things I've mentioned. To be fair, I'd rather have rolls than the pushblock system used in UMVC3, but I still don't like it.

I don't care about the BS that's placed into the game. I don't like the simplified controls. DP and AOA still annoy me the most.
 
N

Nyoro SF

Member
Geneijin said:
I already did. It's why there's no momentum in this game.
Click to expand...

There's an incredible amount of momentum in this game. Yu is all about that momentum. Aigis is a momentum monster. Once Mitsuru gets you in the corner she doesn't ever really stop. Yukiko is momentum or die. Chie has to only get in once to run the pain train.


Geneijin said:
Yes, it does. Because there's no need to buffer, there's no commitment involved in the DP.
Click to expand...

When you commit to a DP you commit to it being potentially blocked and dying. This is why super canceling it shouldn't exist... so it's a real risk. That's the real flaw of the game, allowing someone to do an easy double gamble. Even if you can avoid or counter it sometimes, it's just a real pain in the ass fighting a top tier character, baiting their DP then eating a super delayed followup.
 
M

Master Milk

Member
Solune said:
It does, I'll give you an example. When Yosuke is gliding in, he can control it to make it pretty ambiguous, but that requires him to obviously be in the air. While coming down whether he's crossed you up already doesn't matter, you can push a button without having to know which side he's going to be on to beat him. THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE A REACTION, you just need the visual cue.

I won't go into baiting etc because I'm not trying to talk down to you.
Click to expand...

I think of having to commit meaning once you throw a move out, it better hit or you're going to get punished, or at the very least, you'll be open to punishment. That doesn't seem to be what you're thinking of.

But yea, this is less of a two button issue and more to do with autocorrect. DP's could be two buttons and not autocorrect, they just aren't.

Solune said:
It's not only when you're in a blockstring and you're mashing, it's that you don't have to react to anything, at a push of a button you can counter an attack without even thinking. Whether your opponent is going for a jump-on, cross-up, throw, meaty projectile, one button counters all of that. Also I haven't lost to scrubs, that's not the issue. Like auto-combo, it promotes lazy play.
Click to expand...

I see little difference between pushing a button and entering a command, even moreso when you're not under direct pressure of a blockstring. So, what I immediately read this is as "your DP counters all of that," which doesn't make sense to me. But while trying to step back and understand, I think it really just becomes about the ease of throwing a DP out there?

As I've said, I don't think I've seen this game actually played any differently than other 2D fighters, so I still don't see the problem. So, that's something I feel is best categorized as a personal preference, and I'll leave it at that.

Geneijin said:
I already did. It's why there's no momentum in this game.
Click to expand...

I must have missed this comment, sorry.

Geneijin said:
Yes, it does. Because there's no need to buffer, there's no commitment involved in the DP.
Click to expand...

I think I addressed this earlier, but that's my fault for misunderstanding what you meant by commit.

Geneijin said:
Way to miss the point.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to explain to me what the point was. Sorry I missed it the first time . . .
 
V

VanillaCakeIsBurning

Member
You only need to bring up the fact that single button DP's mean you can't be crossed up unless you throw it out way before hand. In a normal situation, if crossed up while doing a DP, you will do whatever move 424 will activate if your character even has something on that command.

Also, split second reactions because pressing a button will always be faster than inputting a command then pressing a button.
 
P

Prototype-03

Member
OK, so I think this is the problem we are having.

Dragon punches. What is its purpose? It's a GTFO move meant to get out of pressures and/or bad/not real blockstrings. The properties include invul frames and high priority. The downsides of it is that is highly punishable if baited. In most instances, the DP must be buffered, meaning that you're giving up your defensive stance to an offensive stance to give you an edge.

Now, let's look at persona 4 arena. "Are you buffering anything?" No, just 2 button presses. "What does this mean?" You can block indefinitely and get this DP out as soon as possible. "What are its problems with this?" You are not gambling as much because even in a defensive stance, you are STILL defending and mashing out a DP. "What does this mean to Aigis?" My high/low mixup must be perfect otherwise I get DPed. Even if it is perfect, the opponent is still defending. Yeah, I can bait this out but we run into the next problem.

You can super cancel the DP. "What does this mean?" It means that if your DP connects even on block, you can cancel it. So it means it's technically safe. "What if I bait out the super?" Fine, you can bait out the super, but it means that if the opponent does NOT super cancel, the DP suddenly became safe. Also, keep in mind that you can still OMC if the super gets blocked. On a second note, it does not have to be cancelled right away, but on reaction. So if you see your opponent blocking, you can choose not to super. But if you see the opponent running at you after the blocked DP, you can super.

I gave my example with Aigis because that's who I main but I hope this let's you see what I see.
 
T

TWILT

Banned
Good games RoeBear. Those matches was the actually the first time I used my stick in an actual match lol. How'd you think I do?
Prototype-03 said:
You can super cancel the DP. "What does this mean?" It means that if your DP connects even on block, you can cancel it. So it means it's technically safe. "What if I bait out the super?" Fine, you can bait out the super, but it means that if the opponent does NOT super cancel, the DP suddenly became safe. Also, keep in mind that you can still OMC if the super gets blocked. On a second note, it does not have to be cancelled right away, but on reaction. So if you see your opponent blocking, you can choose not to super. But if you see the opponent running at you after the blocked DP, you can super.

I gave my example with Aigis because that's who I main but I hope this let's you see what I see.
Click to expand...

You can only cancel on block or hit, meaning if you get the DP to whiff, it's a free punish.

DPs are not "safe" even if you do have 50SP to cancel it. There are (several) ways to punish DPs without having to worry about supers being cancelled. Here's how to punish Mitsuru's DP on block for example. As for another character like Yu for example, you can just do 2B/an anti-air move for a free counter hit off a blocked DP (you should be well below him). And if the Yu does choose to cancel into Ziodyne in midair, just roll to the other side and punish lol. You should not be getting hit by that kind of stuff to be honest (unless there's online lag or something).
 
R

RoeBear

Member
I think you played really well for it being like your first week. At first I thought that you were just normal you but then you started to lose to my Aki. I thought it was strange that you could lose to him considering you wipe the floor with me usually. All in all I'm scared of when you become "proficient" with the stick.
 
G

Geneijin

Member
Nyoro SF said:
There's an incredible amount of momentum in this game. Yu is all about that momentum. Aigis is a momentum monster. Once Mitsuru gets you in the corner she doesn't ever really stop. Yukiko is momentum or die. Chie has to only get in once to run the pain train.
Click to expand...
Don't really see that in this game where your best defense is your best offense. Maybe that's a general principle for fighting games (P4A is my 1st serious commitment), but a good defense seems less valuable than avoiding the offense. With how much damage Aigis and Mitsuru get and how strong Yu and Chie's oki game are, I don't see the momentum involved beyond that.

When you commit to a DP you commit to it being potentially blocked and dying.
Click to expand...
The simplified input of a DP downplays the risk though. Buffering a SRK input makes you briefly vulnerable for attempting a reversal, but by eliminating that, you're punishing the offense by limiting their offensive options.

Master Milk said:
Thanks for taking the time to explain to me what the point was. Sorry I missed it the first time . . .
Click to expand...
The main contention was the DP system and not an issue with any DP specifically. It's why I don't understand why your brought that up because there wasn't a mention of anybody's DP.
 
M

Master Milk

Member
Geneijin said:
The main contention was the DP system and not an issue with any DP specifically. It's why I don't understand why your brought that up because there wasn't a mention of anybody's DP.
Click to expand...

If you had said that in your first reply it would been a lot more helpful than the comment you did make.

But anyway, I didn't mention any specific DP. I brought it up because I was trying to better understand your position and wanted to see if my working understanding was closer or farther from what you really think.
 
G

Geneijin

Member
Master Milk said:
If you had said that in your first reply it would been a lot more helpful than the comment you did make.
Click to expand...
Yeah, apologies. It was my first reaction.

But anyway, I didn't mention any specific DP. I brought it up because I was trying to better understand your position and wanted to see if my working understanding was closer or farther from what you really think.
Click to expand...
We should just play to better understand one another through fists of fury.
 
G

Geneijin

Member
Master Milk said:
yea, ggs yo

yosuke always kicks my butt, i can never process what he's doing fast enough x_x
Click to expand...
Well, if you want my advice on the matchup, my suggestion would be to not only AA with 2B. j.B descend is really good as you've seen, and you should have thrown out j.5D a few times if you predicted a jump from me.

The one thing you have to know, though, is my SB dash spring/EX dash (that run up sprint) is projectile invulnerable after the startup, so if you're throwing out Maragidyne or Maziodyne loosely, it's a free CH combo for me. Also, your 5B gets low-profiled by my sweep.
 
G

Geneijin

Member
I still do not understand to this day why you can't filter public and private joinable rooms... It would remove the needless clutter finding a lobby open to the public.
 
B

Busaiku

Member
Probably cause not all slots have to be private.
People can have an 8 person lobby, but only 2 or 3 slots can be private or something.
 
U

Uncle AJ

Member
Well I signed up for Saturday against my better judgement. They make me show up later to my local casuals each Saturday, but it seems like a good way to keep the rust off each week. Plus I feel my performance last week was somewhat fraudulent and would like to perform well without resorting to scrubby shit. See you all at 7 CST!
 
O

Onemic

Member
Geneijin said:
No.
Click to expand...

Yosuke takes Mitsurus main pressure tool away, 5A. Other characters can low profile it, but none are as fast, or have as much range as yosukes. It make 5A pretty useless and yosuke can sweep all day for free. The only way I can punish your sweep is with a risky 5/4/6B
 
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