• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Persona 5 |OT2| Someone must have been helping you go to bed early. Talk!

bunkitz

Member
Man, I am very uncomfortable with the thought that part of Makoto's character might have originally been meant for Hifumi. If that actually ends up being the case and is confirmed... I would feel quite lost and confused. Shit.
 
She offers "special services" and massages to the protag all the time. Her text messages letting you know that she's available for work are OTT lewd as well. Even if they ARE done "jokingly" it's in poor taste. By all rights, she should not have pursued continued contact after that first encounter; every time you called, she should've hung up. You also should not be able to romance her. Full stop. Period. End thought.

Kawakami is a creep and a pervert who has no business teaching. I don't care what contrived situation Atlus wrote her into in order to haphazardly justify it. It's predatory and disgusting and has no business being in a game about power imbalances between adults and minors.
But those special services are limited to laundry/cooking/cleaning, she denies doing any any kind sexual of service to the MC during her Confidant. And we see the normal massages in-game (heck even Morgana sees them and doesn't comment anything lewd). Hmm I didn't perceive the text messages to be that way, I just saw it as any other Confidant telling you to hang out. And at one point she does tell you to stop calling her (but ofc gameplay reasons means the Confidant has to continue). I do agree with the issue in romancing her. The way her Confidant story goes
gives no reason for MC to try to romance after hearing all the problems with her previous student. It just feels wrong.

Maybe they could have handle the whole Confidant in a better way that didn't involve maids but I definitely don't think of Kawakami as a creep or pervert.
After regaining her confidence she returns back to being a pretty good teacher too.
Even if you don't romance Kawakami, she still preys on the protagonist and takes advantage of him for literally her entire Confidant link, sometimes hitting on him in order to encourage him to call her more often.
She does take advantage of him, but it's through
her fake story of her sister and ofc encourages him to call her for the money (she says he's pretty much her only frequent client), not because she wants to see him in particular.
.
 

Guess Who

Banned
The reason I'm so hard on Kawakami is because her story goes against her own story. Like you said, her story is about
the way she treated a former student
but it shoots itself in the foot by having her
constantly take money from a new student in order to make amends for the old thing.
It doesn't work. Even if you don't romance Kawakami, she still preys on the protagonist and takes advantage of him for literally her entire Confidant link, sometimes hitting on him in order to encourage him to call her more often. She's gross and needs to stop teaching -- at least stop teaching at the high school level, if nothing else.

To my recollection, both the game and Kawakami herself do, at least,
acknowledge that her taking the protag's money at all is super fucked. Then, on top of that, she actively lies to him to guilt him into call her more. I could be wrong, but my memory is that the game does a fair job at pointing out that she's being shitty and manipulative on both counts. Plus, the whole point is that the money doesn't really do anything to make amends for her former student. All that's doing is lining his parent's pockets. In other words... I think the game would agree with you that she's done a bad job making things right for what happened.

My problem arises more with the resolution.
In the platonic version of the route (which is the way I played it), it's all good, those parents stop extorting her and she realizes the best way to make up for what happened is to be a better teacher who's there for her students. That's actual character growth! In the romantic version, though, she... just totally fucks the whole thing up.
 
Was persona 3 and 4 also easily exploitable using physical persona skills? I relied on magic skills back then but here in Persona 5 almost all encounter can be steam rolled by physicals.
 
you get
to feel bad but get something extra for it at the end of the game :p

if I recall right in 3 after you started romancing multiple people sometimes some of the girls would get mad at you and you would be required to spend time with them to fix it, or wait it out... but it's been a while since I played it.
Oh right! But if you max them out one at a time there was really no consequence if I recall
 
She does take advantage of him, but it's through
her fake story of her sister and ofc encourages him to call her for the money (she says he's pretty much her only frequent client), not because she wants to see him in particular.
.

That doesn't make her actions not predatory, though.

To my recollection, both the game and Kawakami herself do, at least,
acknowledge that her taking the protag's money at all is super fucked. Then, on top of that, she actively lies to him to guilt him into call her more. I could be wrong, but my memory is that the game does a fair job at pointing out that she's being shitty and manipulative on both counts. Plus, the whole point is that the money doesn't really do anything to make amends for her former student. All that's doing is lining his parent's pockets. In other words... I think the game would agree with you that she's done a bad job making things right for what happened.

She does acknowledge that it's fucked, yeah, but at no point does she ever stop doing it. She lacks a moral compass in this regard.

It sucks, too, because her Confidant has such an easy fix. They could've just made her a fellow part-timer at one of your jobs. That way, she's still working herself to the bone, but she's not taking your money or doing any of her other awful crap. The maid thing is pretty much just to be fetishistic, when it really didn't have to be.
 

Guess Who

Banned
She does acknowledge that it's fucked, yeah, but at no point does she ever stop doing it. She lacks a moral compass in this regard.

Well, she does - at the very end of the social link. That's kind of my point. Her being a bad person up until the end of the link is intentional and part of her character. It's not bad writing if you write a shitty person to be shitty, and make their character growth be "maybe I should stop being shitty and be a better teacher," as it is in the platonic route. It is, however, bad writing to make their character growth "maybe I should stop being shitty and be a better teacher... and I'll start by fucking my student."
 

Jintor

Member
I kinda disagree... the maid thing serves a vague story purpose because of the
sex work accusation.
I also think it's kind of supposed to be a misdirect about her story in any event. And honestly, I found that intro scene in May/June hilarious.

But you're right, the whole thing is just jacked five ways, at least in terms of professional ethics, nevermind personal ones.

It's funny, frustrated put upon Kawakami is the most accurate representation of a teacher I've seen in a game for a while, but then her whole side story is just... weird.
 
She does acknowledge that it's fucked, yeah, but at no point does she ever stop doing it. She lacks a moral compass in this regard.

It sucks, too, because her Confidant has such an easy fix. They could've just made her a fellow part-timer at one of your jobs. That way, she's still working herself to the bone, but she's not taking your money or doing any of her other awful crap. The maid thing is pretty much just to be fetishistic, when it really didn't have to be.
She DOES stop doing it
once she doesn't have to pay her former student's parents before. The reason she went to the maid job was because she was available in the evenings and the work gave her enough money to pay them unlike others, not because she was enthusiastic about being working as a maid or because she wanted to in particular.

I guess they could have avoided this 'controversy' by giving her another job, but in the end the romance option would probably still be available.
 
I kinda disagree... the maid thing serves a vague story purpose because of the
sex work accusation.

But you're right, the whole thing is just jacked five ways, at least in terms of professional ethics, nevermind personal ones.

The
sex work accusation
was redundant anyway. They already had enough to blackmail her with. It was the cherry on top of the "fuck you" cake, but it was by no means necessary for her story.
 
She DOES stop doing it
once she doesn't have to pay her former student's parents before. The reasonshe went to the maid job was because she was available in the evenings and the work gave her enough money to pay them unlike others, not because she was enthusiastic about being working as a maid or because she wanted to in particular.

I guess they could have avoided this 'controversy' by giving her another job, but in the end the romance option would probably still be available.

Like I said, I understand the story/in-universe reasons for why she's doing what she's doing. But that's not the point I was arguing. Kawakami's not a real person; she doesn't have personal agency. Atlus's writing staff are real people who have personal agency, and the fact that they as writers chose to do this with the character is the problem.
 
Like I said, I understand the story/in-universe reasons for why she's doing what she's doing. But that's not the point I was arguing. Kawakami's not a real person; she doesn't have personal agency. Atlus's writing staff are real people who have personal agency, and the fact that they as writers chose to do this with the character is the problem.
Agreed, but then there's no reason to call her character a pervert or creep who has no moral compass.
 

zeniselv

Member
Was persona 3 and 4 also easily exploitable using physical persona skills? I relied on magic skills back then but here in Persona 5 almost all encounter can be steam rolled by physicals.
Nope, specially in 3, where you didn't had direct command of your party, and not only physical wasn't as effective, it was riskier because the hp cost would put you in a very vulnerable state for an attack of a weakness.
 

silva1991

Member
(not sure if it's been posted here or not)
but this seriously deserves more views

Persona 5: Persona 4 Opening Tribute

giphy.gif
 
To my recollection, both the game and Kawakami herself do, at least,
acknowledge that her taking the protag's money at all is super fucked. Then, on top of that, she actively lies to him to guilt him into call her more. I could be wrong, but my memory is that the game does a fair job at pointing out that she's being shitty and manipulative on both counts. Plus, the whole point is that the money doesn't really do anything to make amends for her former student. All that's doing is lining his parent's pockets. In other words... I think the game would agree with you that she's done a bad job making things right for what happened.

My problem arises more with the resolution.
In the platonic version of the route (which is the way I played it), it's all good, those parents stop extorting her and she realizes the best way to make up for what happened is to be a better teacher who's there for her students. That's actual character growth! In the romantic version, though, she... just totally fucks the whole thing up.
It's not really that great a resolution even in the platonic version though:
Despite acknowledging that taking Joker's money was messed up and the reason she needed that money vanishing, she never returns in and instead just hangs on to it, sending some mixed messages.

In addition, I'm not sure what exactly she's supposed to learned, as far as being there for her students goes. I mean, as far as the Confidant relationship goes, that seems to mean being there for Joker and Joker alone. Her other students, though? What other students?
Don't think she even references any of them or what's going on with them at all in the Confidant relationship (hell, aside from the very start, she doesn't even reference Ryuji or Mishima again at all, right? It's just you and that one kid she gave extra help to in the past. It would have been cool if when she first references you having a criminal record and that making you an outcast in class right before she offers you the deal, that you could at least try to be a bro and bring up how you're not alone and people like Ryuji are in a pretty similar position, especially when she herself is one of the people who kind of warns you against hanging out with Ryuji at the start of the game before that thread just kinda gets dropped, but nothin'. Missed opportunity there.). That's just bizarre.

Like... that's kinda the exact situation that got her into trouble in the first place, except even worse this time! Giving a particular student special treatment and going above and beyond for them, not because they actually truly need it at all, but because fuck it, doing it anyway. That's not very ethical at all! And if she really wants to be a good teacher, I'm sure she could help one of her other students out more than she's helping me by just doing my laundry or making coffee or curry!

The whole thing is just really weird through and through.
 

Jintor

Member
I think she's neither of those things, but like many people, a deeply indecisive person who's been pushed and trapped in a situation at least partially of her own making.

But like you say, they could have written it differently not to undermine its own message.
 
Thanks! And yes I agree, I get there are Sim dating elements and archetypes they adhere too but the characters are way too one dimensional. I would love if they made it a bit more grey but maybe I'm not deep enough into the story.

You are not alone here. After some of the stuff in interviews plus this game.I don't even want to see Hoshino try a female character. There are certain things that WOULD change the entire narrative, had the MC been female, but they don't seem to be the things people are talking about.
A.) The game opens with a scene of police brutality. Once you finish
Palace 6 and catch up to the framing device, it gets even worse.
This matters. This is totally a gendered thing. It would probably be perceived very differently if the MC was a teenage girl.

B.) This also applies to MC's backstory:
A woman tried to save another woman from being raped. Realistically a woman would probably not physically step in (unless she were very confidant) and would probably try to call others attention for help. Ignoring this, hypothetically, the aggressor then gets this 16 year old girl arrested,
and then has the victim testify. The whole thing does hold up better with a male MC,
though it could be adjusted


C.) By and large, the adult S.Links are women.One of the male party members is a cat. Akechi is story driven from the beginning. This presents a balancing problem, as, should they retain only heterosexual routes and not add any, the only romance links a Female route would have are Ryuji and Yusuke. Not Mishima because he's the worst.

D.) Sending a 16 year old girl to go live with a middle aged man she didn't know? That's more then a little odd.

P3 had the blankest of blank slates (and what little personality he did have was kinda douchey, but who isn't in the P3 universe? ) so it worked well

There's one thing that the game avoid that I like though. MC and Futaba
Not living directly together
It would be pretty easy to go all "my little sister can't possibly be this much of a shut in!" with it. I thought they were really going to play that angle up with her, but it was avoided.

Re: Kawakami, I like her a lot. Her Confidant is super fucked up though. Nothing about it really redeems her and it's pretty shitty. The writers set her up to be a complex, intriguing character. And she is! She could be! But they never hit the right points.
 
Just saw the credits. The game truly overstays its welcome.

I really enjoyed the Palaces and how Confidants tie with the gameplay, but can't help to think that the game is style over substance.

Plot is a mess and some character arcs make no sense whatsoever.
Akachi's death scene almost made me turn off my ps4.
. The plot twist before the last palace is beyond stupid. At least the final boss reveal was handled better.

Gameplay is weaker compared to others Megaten. Game is too easy even on hard, and the Press turn is too lenient this time.
Also the number of demons is underwhelming coming from SMT:IV/A. P5 barely has 210 demons, whereas SMTIV had over 420.
And there is no reason for fusion search to be absent.

I don't know, I enjoyed my time with it, but found the other Person's games to be better. I felt sadness when P3 and 4 ended, with this one what I felt was indifference.
 

Verder

Member
ENDGAME SPOILERS

did anyone else scream YOOOO when you had to fuse Justine and Caroline to create lavenza? Man her art is so on point . Basically Alice x Elizabeth z Margaret all in one . This was probably the biggest twist for me honestly
 

Zephyx

Member
11/24:

I saw the plot twist with Akechi a mile away but the way they handled it was not what I was expecting though. Really good stuff, imo. Also loved the way they planned the fake death of the MC. I thought I was going to have the bad ending when he died at first.

Question though, is it possible to get a bad ending during the interrogation sequence? Or is it another story window I'll encounter in the future. I just entered Palace 7 and would not mind reloading just to see it.
 

Bladenic

Member
Kawami's story/confidant is hot trash but it's just par the course of the game's main beats conflicting with side stuff. And the fact that every female character needs to be romanceable for some reason.

Then again they made an elementary school boy able to be a romance option for female MC in P3P so it's not like having a female MC makes it any better.

I ain't too mad cuz I put that maid to work making my coffee and curry every single night I can.
 

Yam's

Member
Was persona 3 and 4 also easily exploitable using physical persona skills? I relied on magic skills back then but here in Persona 5 almost all encounter can be steam rolled by physicals.

In Persona 4 Golden, yes totally. I just finished doing another run and physical destroys most of the fights.

I'm currently replaying 3 FES, I'll try to do the same. I don't remember if physical was already that strong in 3.
 

Gnome

Member
11/24:

I saw the plot twist with Akechi a mile away but the way they handled it was not what I was expecting though. Really good stuff, imo. Also loved the way they planned the fake death of the MC. I thought I was going to have the bad ending when he died at first.

Question though, is it possible to get a bad ending during the interrogation sequence? Or is it another story window I'll encounter in the future. I just entered Palace 7 and would not mind reloading just to see it.

I think
you can get a bad ending if you sell out your friends there when Sae offers to make you a deal to lighten your sentence or w/e.
 
Nope, specially in 3, where you didn't had direct command of your party, and not only physical wasn't as effective, it was riskier because the hp cost would put you in a very vulnerable state for an attack of a weakness.

In Persona 4 Golden, yes totally. I just finished doing another run and physical destroys most of the fights.

I'm currently replaying 3 FES, I'll try to do the same. I don't remember if physical was already that strong in 3.

I see. This may be the reason why persona 5 seems easier. Playing on Easy on persona 4 and I was able to use up all of the resurrect feature.
 

Mailbox

Member
I might be the only person who had no problems with how Ann was handled in the game :S

I mean, if you look at all the scenes with relation to her and sexuality, its oddly consistent. Its all about being in control (at least, of her self and how people are seeing her)
(I'll spoiler tag things from here on out just to be safe)

Like, with kamoshida's arc:
- She hates how Kamoshida acts towards her because its fucking Kamoshida and she lacks any semblance of control (which in turn leads to her spirit of rebellion)
- She hates the cognitive version of herself because its not her, but Kamoshida's twisted interpretation of her to him. She doesn't want to be seen like that to him or to others through his lense. Basically a lacking of control of her own sexual image within the palace.
- Note how her persona is basically a perfect metaphor for her control of her sexuality. Carmen is bare-chested, in control of men, and a cigar-smoker (signifying higher status and as such control)
- Its also interesting to note how when she first gets her spirit of rebellion suit she's shocked and tries to cover up (because its sudden and there was no control over its use) but afterwards she's basically a-okay with using it, because its her using it, not it just randomly appearing

post kamoshida's arc we see more of this:
- w/ Yusuke's nude art tomfoolery, she doesn't want to do it. But its presented as an situation where they must get in no mater what. She loses control of how she can be presented, but in a twist regains that control by basically clothing herself in everything and never going through with the nude art thing.

- w/ the beach we see that she actually chides Ryuji when he's all pervy but not in a angry way. She's basically completely okay with being seen as sexy in the beach because she has control over how she is presented (ie: its her choice of swimwear). Thus she never gets angry about it.

- Her Confidant also goes into this a tad about how she wants to be like those sexy thief villainesses from cartoons (which ties to her Carmen persona in a good way imo)

- With the desert bus scene, we actually don't see much of anything. Just a sliver of a bra, no cleavage, or anything else really. Its really just context that Ryuji is trying to perv out. But considering the situation isn't about her trying to be seen in a sexy way, she doesn't take it kindly. This is actually a really interesting contrast in her reactions compared to the beach scene that comes after. To me, these 2 scenes cement my idea that the use of Ann's sexualization and sexuality is about control of appearance.

Ann isn't meant to be some character who gets traumatized by Komoshida's sexual abuse only to turn into some sexual-cripple. If anything i'd get angry at the game if it did that because that would be too simple and lazy imo. Keeping the use of sexual imagery and sexuality about image control was probably the right move imo.

Then again, this is just my take on it looking back. Idk. I don't expect anyone to really agree or anything :p
 

Rixxan

Member
Dude - Palace 7

That song that plays during phase 2 of Shido

Game has really cemented itself as something special over the last 10 or so hours
 

JediLink

Member
I can't remember the "I should choose my words carefully" prompt ever coming up for me for Kawakami so I assumed that she wasn't romanceable. Was I just not paying attention or maybe is there a flag required for it?
 

Mailbox

Member
Dude - Palace 7

That song that plays during phase 2 of Shido

Game has really cemented itself as something special over the last 10 or so hours

That song may be my favorite persona track yet. I can't stop listening to it.

I can't remember the "I should choose my words carefully" prompt ever coming up for me for Kawakami so I assumed that she wasn't romanceable. Was I just not paying attention or maybe is there a flag required for it?

It definitely appears. The only real "flag" is just to be at rank 9.
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
I can't remember the "I should choose my words carefully" prompt ever coming up for me for Kawakami so I assumed that she wasn't romanceable. Was I just not paying attention or maybe is there a flag required for it?

I know you can mess up Tae before her romance rank but I'm not sure about Kawakami.
 

Mailbox

Member
I think a better way to handle romancing next game would be to have 7 or so flag opportunities as the ranks go on. If you get that flag you get a rose coloured note that appears to signify it. You would have to get at least 5 out of the 7 in order to even potentially start a relationship with someone. If you are already in a relationship, then I think it should be harder by default. Either 6/7 or 7/7 would then need to be required.

Idk. its late and i'm sorta talking out of my ass at this point.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I know you can mess up Tae before her romance rank but I'm not sure about Kawakami.

It comes before every single female confidant. As mentioned above, it's the 9th rank up event where you have to make the 'romance' or 'platonic' choice.
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
It comes before every single female confidant. As mentioned above, it's the 9th rank up event where you have to make the 'romance' or 'platonic' choice.

I know, but it is possible to mess up Tae atleast. She basically friendzones you and you don't get an option based on an answer in a much earlier rank. My friend got with every girl in his first playthrough but her because it didn't give him a romance choice.

I think some of the other adult characters may have a hidden trigger like that.
 

Taruranto

Member
Gameplay is weaker compared to others Megaten. Game is too easy even on hard, and the Press turn is too lenient this time.
Also the number of demons is underwhelming coming from SMT:IV/A. P5 barely has 210 demons, whereas SMTIV had over 420.
And there is no reason for fusion search to be absent.
.

This reminds me there is no ability to summon demons directly from the Compendium too. Really annoying with the Persona limit and some fusions requiring you 4-5 demons.
 

duckroll

Member
I hit a random rage spot earlier when playing. I had a bunch of Mementos quests lined up, one of which is something blocking a Confidant progression. It was a rainy day. Mishima even phoned me to say maybe we should focus on smaller tasks like Mementos requests.

So... seems like the perfect day to do it all right? Nope! Because one character is out of commission for story reasons... Morgana goes "LET'S TALK TO XXXXXX FIRST BLAHBLAHBLAH." Can't go into Mementos at all. These are the annoying quirks in Persona that get really annoying.
 

Zareka

Member
I can't remember the "I should choose my words carefully" prompt ever coming up for me for Kawakami so I assumed that she wasn't romanceable. Was I just not paying attention or maybe is there a flag required for it?
It pops up but unlike other romance slinks you have to go through about 3 prompts before it actually cements your choice. It doesn't appear until one of the later options.
 

VRMN

Member
I still think they swiped some of Hifumi's stuff and gave it to Makoto. Hifumi's abilities make a ton of sense for someone who is the party strategist. Even the code name "Queen" makes much more sense for someone who thinks of themselves as the ruler of their own little shogi kingdom instead of Makoto's sorta-power trip aggressive thing.
I actually doubt it. Makoto and the other party members by and large have a set group of perks in keeping with their status as combat team members. Hifumi has a full set of perks that are those battle system enhancements. If she was a party member and Makoto was a side character this would simply have been reversed. Hifumi might have been conceived as a potential party member, but this died earlier in development than the set perks she was given.
 

SHarris78

Member
I'm struggling big time on palace 3 (the bank). I'm level 25, bought good gear and have been fusing my personas, but pretty much all enemies take so much HP off me I'm using up my regen items (as well as the dia skill) so quick I'll have no chance against the final boss.

Any tips?
 

Majmun

Member
I'm struggling big time on palace 3 (the bank). I'm level 25, bought good gear and have been fusing my personas, but pretty much all enemies take so much HP off me I'm using up my regen items (as well as the dia skill) so quick I'll have no chance against the final boss.

Any tips?

Switch to a lower difficulty.
 
I'm struggling big time on palace 3 (the bank). I'm level 25, bought good gear and have been fusing my personas, but pretty much all enemies take so much HP off me I'm using up my regen items (as well as the dia skill) so quick I'll have no chance against the final boss.

Any tips?

My tip would be to fuse a matador with swift strike and auto enhance evasion/hit rate. Your party should just use physical based skills and not the SP ones. Then use your sp for healing. Swift strike made that dungeon easy for me.
 

LiK

Member
I hit a random rage spot earlier when playing. I had a bunch of Mementos quests lined up, one of which is something blocking a Confidant progression. It was a rainy day. Mishima even phoned me to say maybe we should focus on smaller tasks like Mementos requests.

So... seems like the perfect day to do it all right? Nope! Because one character is out of commission for story reasons... Morgana goes "LET'S TALK TO XXXXXX FIRST BLAHBLAHBLAH." Can't go into Mementos at all. These are the annoying quirks in Persona that get really annoying.

Yea, the game is pretty restrictive at times with what you can do.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
130 hours, just finished the first objective of Palace 7.

This game is pushing my inability to interrupt voiced lines to the limit.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
130 hours, just finished the first objective of Palace 7.

This game is pushing my inability to interrupt voiced lines to the limit.

Give in ! There's no harm in pressing X or O to skip voiced lines. I did that practically through out the entire game. Absolutely nothing felt 'missed'. It still took me 75+ hrs to finish the game.
 
This reminds me there is no ability to summon demons directly from the Compendium too. Really annoying with the Persona limit and some fusions requiring you 4-5 demons.

Yeah. Fusing high-end Persona is a pain.

I don't get why they didn't include it. SMT:IV was released in 2013 and had the option.
 
Top Bottom