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[daveo42]

Death confidant spoilers lol

Spoiler

told the doctor I love her I assume I'm locked out of doing that with the rest now right.

You can romance multiple female confidants just like in 4

Spoiler

just be prepared for the consequences.

 

[snow in jamaica]

Spoiler

Many people thought Naoto was transgender due to the sex change surgery her Shadow was trying to do. Her romantic S.Link (which was horribly written anyway, but not for that reason) then has her wearing a female school uniform, which some people interpreted as Atlus not wanting to commit on having a transgender character. Naoto's entire arc was instead meant as commentary on Japanese gender politics and how stupidly hard it is for a woman to be accepted in a male-dominated world, which is actually absolutely clear from the game itself.

Spoiler

I didn't interpret her as trans and still thought moments like that were garbage because she's still being encouraged to change her behavior for no reason but "ur a girl tho" and "i get harder when u speak like girl".

 

[Zafir]

Spoiler

Many people thought Naoto was transgender due to the sex change surgery her Shadow was trying to do. Her romantic S.Link (which was horribly written anyway, but not for that reason) then has her wearing a female school uniform, which some people interpreted as Atlus not wanting to commit on having a transgender character. Naoto's entire arc was instead meant as commentary on Japanese gender politics and how stupidly hard it is for a woman to be accepted in a male-dominated world, which is actually absolutely clear from the game itself.

Yeah, as I said above, I remember it being brought up now that I'm reminded of it.

Honestly I thought it worked well even from the perspective of someone who isn't from Japan, while they're no doubt worse for it, it's still a problem all over. As a woman who often has to hide her gender online due to shitty people, and also as a woman who works as a programmer(ie male dominated field). I totally appreciated her arc. Being a woman sucks sometimes.

 

[Opa-Pa]

I think all complaints about lack of leadership in Joker are ultimately tied to Atlus stupid obsession with making all their protagonists "blank slate but not really", which definitely needs to stop already. Make a stablished character or let us make them ourselves.

Joker was a step up IMO because at least he speaks up from time to time but it's still something in the middle, which sucks.

It's spelling out something you could easily infer yourself, and it happens in just about every dungeon. The characters can get angry without the winking and nudging.

I feel like this complaint only makes sense if you were playing as just Joker. Sure you can already see that but why can't we have the characters react to things in the game just because you already saw them? Seeing their reactions add to their personality, and it's not like they're spelling out obvious game mechanics, just environmental stuff.

 

[TP]

Does anyone else find this game easier than both Persona 3 and Persona 4, even when you're playing on the same or higher difficulty as you did on those games? I might regret saying that when fighting the final boss but so far, every boss has been pretty easy. Also I have done zero grinding at all. I have fused and captured very little personas. I've got about 12 and fused about 13.

Yeah i'm playing on the usual normal and the game has been incredibly easy. I've had Charge and Concentrate for about ten hours and haven't felt the need to actually use them.

 

[PK Gaming]

That's what bothers me, actually. I think the overall story is more interesting than 4's for sure, but the pacing was goddawful and it felt like the game tried way too hard to seem more dark and dramatic than it actually was.

I mean, compare the opening, promotional art and general vibe of both 3 and 4. 3 always tries to look dark and deep when it's just generally fairly cheery anime stuff with a J Pop soundtrack that yes, has many depressing aspects to it, but it's still fairly light-hearted. P4 focuses more on style and looking cool, and that's what the game is in the end! It's Jojo part 4 with lots of anime and a very stylized look, so it's way more honest with itself, which is why I enjoy it more in the end, it feels genuine and "free" compared to 3.

Yeah I see what you're getting at. I'm not as hard on them since it P-studio's first attempt at making a game like Persona, and when the game was good, it was good. I agree that the pacing was super rough, hahh. Those dead months are absolutely brutal to get through, haha.

I mean, Naoto wasn't comfortable being a woman, and wanted surgery to become a man. They just pulled the typical Japan response to trans characters of saying "You're okay as a woman" and the trans character goes "Oh, okay"

No that's what her Shadow wanted.

Spoiler

The game makes it clear that Shadows are exaggerated interpretations of the truth. Naoto is upset that her age and especially her gender prevent her from being taken seriously in a male dominated workplace. The issue is that the game never shows her experiencing workplace discrimination due to her gender, so it's hard to empathize with her. There's 0 gender dypshoria here.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

You can romance multiple female confidants just like in 4

Spoiler

just be prepared for the consequences.

Muhahaha excellent

Wait

Spoiler

consequences

meh screw it

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

I disagree with this reading of Hashino. I think Hashino knows exactly what he wants to make, and Persona 4 isn't really it. When Hashino has full freedom without the expectations of a franchise, what does he direct? Maken X and Catherine. Those are far more consistent with SMT3, DDS, P3, and P5 in tone. P4 is the one that sticks out. It feels to me like P4 is the populist game that Atlus made to appeal to a wider audience by being more pleasant, less oppressive, more colorful, and just friendlier. Also much more open to merchandising and spin offs because everyone in the game is so chill.

P4 really isnt much less oppressive than P5 though. P4's opening is more oppressive than p5

 

[Ketkat]

No that's what her Shadow wanted, but the game makes it clear that Shadows are exaggerated interpretations of the truth. Naoto is upset that her age and especially her gender prevent her from being taken seriously in a male dominated workplace. The issue is that the game never shows her experiencing workplace discrimination due to her gender, so it's hard to empathize with her. There's 0 gender dypshoria here.

As someone who is in fact trans, it sounds like textbook gender dysphoria that gets waved away by forcing her to accept that she's a woman.

 

[Shouta]

It's very important to not get the fact that the MC is silent and thus the other chars do most of the talking mixed in with the dynamics of the actual group. Joker is 100% the leader. The entire team bands around Joker in pretty much every aspect. He leads their infiltrations, is their combat leader, and is the one responsible for procuring supplies and support. Makoto is the team's strategist and does the leg work on how to do things but she's not the person that the team rallies around. In essence, Makoto is Zhuge Liang to Joker's Liu Bei, for folks that are familiar with the Three Kingdoms. Not a perfect match but it's pretty similar.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

P4 really isnt much less oppressive than P5 though. P4's opening is more oppressive than p5

What? How?

 

[Mariip]

I'm also weirdly curious about the female MC path in P3P now. It's been long enough since I played P3P the first time, too.

She feels brighter and you can go cutsy route or tomboy route, i feel she does a better job encouraging the team and it washes off most of p3 edgyness without turning it into p4 you should check it out, yukari turns into a way better social link and so does junpei

Spoiler

I mean, Naoto wasn't comfortable being a woman, and wanted surgery to become a man. They just pulled the typical Japan response to trans characters of saying "You're okay as a woman" and the trans character goes "Oh, ok

"

I've spoiler tagged the comments in your post because i didn't want to write spoilers in mine so welp, p4 spoilers:

Spoiler

She wasn't confortable with the way people saw her and not with her body itself, she didn't feel like a boy trapped in a girl's body, she was just afraid that if people found out she was a girl she would lose her job and the respect of the people who worked with her on the police. saying she is a transmen is like saying that kanji is gay because man can't like cute things, the whole point of Kanji and Naoto in that game was showing how society can be sexist as hell and they do a great job at this, when you try to pin them as LGBT characters you either confirm the opressions the society imposed on them or turns them into badly written stuff

 

[Ultimadrago]

Where Persona 4 remains so strong to me is that every issue they deal with feels realistic. A lot of character issues are standard teenage problems like insecurities, fear of their future, and loneliness. Each social link delves really deeply into those things. Despite P5 doing a really good job in the main story of showing growth and character dynamic, I havent found any slink that hits close to the mark of P4's. The side character slinks have actually trended better than the party for the most part.

Ann ends up my biggest disappointment as she is dealing with something similar to things I went through in high school

Spoiler

Suicide, but her slink falls on its face with its focus on "imma be a strong model for Shizui" in a way that never felt close to believable.

Also I do find the whole "darker" think to be overblown. P4's cast was definitely a more willing to smile at the darkness, but that didnt stop the game from making it hard for them. Yosuke's smile is so forced due to the actions at the beginning of the game, and of course the whole hanged man slink is painful.

P5 has actually been a lot softer with things like (post dungeon 5 spoilers)

Spoiler

Shizui surviving her suicide attempt, and Haru's dad being evil before his death anyway allowing Haru to accept it much easier.

With Persona 5 it's less about being "darker" and being less deliberately goofy and Happy-Go-Lucky with many of the hangouts. The difference there allows for conversations I find myself appreciating more at face value rather than chalking it up to "Required High School Hijinks". The softening blows in the story don't really add or take away from that aspect of Persona 5 too much as the quality of Persona's writing fiddles around the same area regardless.

Yeah, Ann's arc is a mess and the story does a better job of handling some of the arcs then the Social Links do.

P5 seems to do a pretty good job combining both the cold and warm of the P3 and P4 pretty well.

It does. There are certain elements that could have been handled better (like Ann's arc and Haru's), but I was never impressed with Yosuke or Yukiko's arc in Persona 4 either. A blow-by-blow comparison goes little in the term of distance, but the overall tone is where I'm heading with this. The Persona 5 team still has a sense of togetherness and looks forward to having fun after the job is done without (mostly) coming desperate to create unforgettable picnic memories. That overall grasp of the relationships and various "rebellions" the cast goes through internally/externally has me see a better cohesiveness to the team in levity and under pressure.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

What? How?

a teenager getting murdered sets an uglier stage than one getting framed. P4 just eases up as it goes.

 

[Espada]

I mean, if Makoto was the main character and leader she'd also be the silent protagonist and have the exact same problems you're complaining about with Joker. The fundamental issue is that it's hard for a character who has only slightly more than the bare minimum number of necessary lines of dialogue (voiced and otherwise) to be portrayed as the leader of the group. They just needed to give Joker more opportunities to actually talk (and maybe even voice the lines you choose for him like in Bioware games.)

Oh no, I mean ditch the silent protagonist model and just use Makoto as the main character. It would make far more sense to do that than continue on with the current setup.

For the past 90 hours that I've played the game, Joker has mostly been an unimportant side character. He had like 10 minutes of spotlight where party said that they cared about him and then he went back to being unimportant.

And that's where I'm at. You guys who finished the game are telling me the game pulls a hail mary so good that it makes up for the previous 90 hours of the "leader" not actually leading the party? Yeah, I definitely want to see this.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Oh no, I mean ditch the silent protagonist model and just use Makoto as the main character. It would make far more sense to do that than continue on with the current setup.

I'm still advocating for them to go the Witcher route with the protagonist in P6

And that's where I'm at. You guys who finished the game are telling me the game pulls a hail mary so good that it makes up for the previous 90 hours of the "leader" not actually leading the party? Yeah, I definitely want to see this.

theres a few leader things I think you glossed over on, even though I agree with your overall sentiment.

 

[snow in jamaica]

I feel like this complaint only makes sense if you were playing as just Joker. Sure you can already see that but why can't we have the characters react to things in the game just because you already saw them? Seeing their reactions add to their personality, and it's not like they're spelling out obvious game mechanics, just environmental stuff.

They can react without being so explanatory. Those aren't the only points where the game spells things out either.

 

[MTC100]

Yeah, my husband came home and was like, "How was your day?" So, I told him how I fought a wheelchair riding dick-monster.

It's not a wheelchair! -Also I didn't fight it, I made friends with the THROBBING KING OF DESIRE

Spoiler

 

[duckroll]

P4 really isnt much less oppressive than P5 though. P4's opening is more oppressive than p5

You live in a home with a nice guy and his daughter who sings shopping advert jingles. Dude. It's practically a Disney game compared to all the other Hashino games.

 

[Ketkat]

I've spoiler tagged the comments in your post because i didn't want to write spoilers in mine so welp, p4 spoilers:

Spoiler

She wasn't confortable with the way people saw her and not with her body itself, she didn't feel like a boy trapped in a girl's body, she was just afraid that if people found out she was a girl she would lose her job and the respect of the people who worked with her on the police. saying she is a transmen is like saying that kanji is gay because man can't like cute things, the whole point of Kanji and Naoto in that game was showing how society can be sexist as hell and they do a great job at this, when you try to pin them as LGBT characters you either confirm the opressions the society imposed on them or turns them into badly written stuff

Kanji doesn't come off as gay because of the girly things he likes. He comes off gay because he was attracted to Naoto when he thought that she was a guy. Let me make that clear. There was a character, that he thought was a guy, he was attracted to. At best, you could say he's Bi, but he's still an LGBT character.

You say she had no trouble with her body. She literally had to be forced to accept she was a woman by her shadow. There's also this from the wiki : "One of Shadow Naoto's lines suggests that Naoto was possibly suicidal because of her dislike of her own sex and feeling that - because of her neglect - she didn't have a reason to live: "Ahh, I see now. You don't care if you die on the operating table, do you? Very well. We can play it that way!"

 

[nOoblet16]

Oh no, I mean ditch the silent protagonist model and just use Makoto as the main character. It would make far more sense to do that than continue on with the current setup.



And that's where I'm at. You guys who finished the game are telling me the game pulls a hail mary so good that it makes up for the previous 90 hours of the "leader" not actually leading the party? Yeah, I definitely want to see this.

I specifically said that it doesn't pull anything out of nowhere. You will just see why when you gain hindsight.

 

[Guess Who]

It's not a wheelchair! -Also I didn't fight it, I made friends with the THROBBING KING OF DESIRE

You should really spoiler tag that picture.

 

[AgentLampshade]

How people are expecting a silent protagonist to lead discussions is beyond me.

 

[nOoblet16]

P4 really isnt much less oppressive than P5 though. P4's opening is more oppressive than p5

Eh?
I am playing Persona 4 right now while I do my P5 NG+ here and there. Persona 4 is about as opperrisive as a Scooby Doo episode.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

You live in a home with a nice guy and his daughter who sings shopping advert jingles. Dude. It's practically a Disney game compared to all the other Hashino games.

in P5 you live with a dude that goes on long detailed tangents about coffee beans.

Eh?
I am playing Persona 4 right now while I do my P5 NG+ here and there. Persona 4 is about as opperrisive as a Scooby Doo episode.

I specified the opening here for good reason, as Saki's murder is early and creates a more oppressive atmosphere than anything that has happened in P5. Despite P5 feeling more oppressive throughout its run.

 

[Jiraiza]

With all these comments about Joker being like a side character, I'd like to see them make a Persona game where the wild card holder isn't super important to the story and is relegated to a side character instead. While we're at it, they can introduce the wingman protagnist where you can help hook up your party mates while also attempting to pursue your own interest.

No need to pay me for the ideas, Atlus.

 

[Autoignition]

Yeah, as I said above, I remember it being brought up now that I'm reminded of it.

Honestly I thought it worked well even from the perspective of someone who isn't from Japan, while they're no doubt worse for it, it's still a problem all over. As a woman who often has to hide her gender online due to shitty people, and also as a woman who works as a programmer(ie male dominated field). I totally appreciated her arc. Being a woman sucks sometimes.

As a woman struggling to break into law enforcement, Naoto's character hit so close to home for me that I actually started crying at the end of her S Link. There was never any moment that I ever believed she was trans, because her story was so spot-on reflective of young women in law enforcement.

I felt immediately attached to Sae in P5 for the same reason.

 

[PK Gaming]

I disagree with this reading of Hashino. I think Hashino knows exactly what he wants to make, and Persona 4 isn't really it. When Hashino has full freedom without the expectations of a franchise, what does he direct? Maken X and Catherine. Those are far more consistent with SMT3, DDS, P3, and P5 in tone. P4 is the one that sticks out. It feels to me like P4 is the populist game that Atlus made to appeal to a wider audience by being more pleasant, less oppressive, more colorful, and just friendlier. Also much more open to merchandising and spin offs because everyone in the game is so chill.

P4 was literally created based on fan feedback from P3, haha.

As someone who is in fact trans, it sounds like textbook gender dysphoria that gets waved away by forcing her to accept that she's a woman.

I mean what is more likely?

A) They created a trans character and backed out of it (unlikely, given their history with LGBT characters).
B) They wrote around a generic anime trope.

There was never any intent at making Naoto trans. The game doesn't even begin to respect that narrative, given how overtly they pander with her later on.

 

[Toki767]

How people are expecting a silent protagonist to lead discussions is beyond me.

I just think it's silly that he talks in battle.

If you're going to give the guy a voice with voiced lines, you may as well just go all the way.

At least it prevents a lot of awkward phrasing when other characters talk. Always referring to MC as "him" even if they were briefly talking about another male character in the same sentence.

Or at least just give MC a name I guess.

 

[duckroll]

in P5 you live with a dude that goes on long detailed tangents about coffee beans.

You don't see how oppressive that is? Literally torture.

 

[Espada]

How people are expecting a silent protagonist to lead discussions is beyond me.

I don't expect that. I just don't buy silent protagonists as leaders in the first place. It has always fallen flat for me. But I'll stop harping on that point, enough people have said the game sells his status as leader sufficiently well in the end that I'll let this go.

 

[Guess Who]

As a woman struggling to break into law enforcement, Naoto's character hit so close to home for me that I actually started crying at the end of her S Link. There was never any moment that I ever believed she was trans, because her story was so spot-on reflective of young women in law enforcement.

I felt immediately attached to Sae in P5 for the same reason.

Yeah, I was going to say - Sae is basically what Naoto's arc in P4 is meant to be, just executed in a much more direct and believable way.

 

[Dark_castle]

You can romance multiple female confidants just like in 4

Spoiler

just be prepared for the consequences.

Skip Valentine day, read that P5 harem doujin by Tachibana, stay winning.

 

[MTC100]

You should really spoiler tag that picture.

Why exactly though? The picture was posted before already, you mean it's a spoiler that he's disliking honorifics? Also it's not really shocking that Mara is in P5 as well.

 

[Ketkat]

They created a trans character and backed out of it (unlikely, given their history with LGBT characters).

Given their history with trans characters, it actually perfectly fits that same narrative. I can't think of a single good example that they give. (Don't even try Erica, what with her being given the nightmares as well as her friends and Toby's remarks)

 

[FluxWaveZ]

P4 was literally created based on fan feedback from P3, haha.

You sure? Does Hashino have an interview that gets into this at some point? P3 started development while P4 was still being developed, after all. Which is why it didn't even have a design doc.

 

[Fandangox]

You don't see how oppressive that is? Literally torture.

Coffee is art

 

[psynergylover]

26th October

Spoiler

The fuck is Sojiro doing rooting around in Futaba's stuff? Just as I was starting to like him

Just got to that part as well

Spoiler

he was just cleaning her room, what was Futaba doing holding on to that? she should've kept it well hidden

 

[Son Of Sparda]

It's very important to not get the fact that the MC is silent and thus the other chars do most of the talking mixed in with the dynamics of the actual group. Joker is 100% the leader. The entire team bands around Joker in pretty much every aspect. He leaders their infiltrations, is their combat leader, and is the one responsible for procuring supplies and support. Makoto is the team's strategist and does the leg work on how to do things but she's not the person that the team rallies around. In essence, Makoto is Zhuge Liang to Joker's Liu Bei, for folks that are familiar with the Three Kingdoms. Not a perfect match but it's pretty similar.

You are not wrong about the bold parts, but they can't really take those away otherwise you won't have any gameplay. Saying that these stuff make Joker an actual leader is like saying that regardless of what role each character have in their respected games, the fact that they get to control the item distribution and flow of combat, storywise makes them the leader of their respected party and that's not true for many game.

Being in control of gameplay, doesn't necessarily mean that a character is a leader.

Oh no, I mean ditch the silent protagonist model and just use Makoto as the main character. It would make far more sense to do that than continue on with the current setup.

Yeah, I would've been completely on board with this idea as well.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

You don't see how oppressive that is? Literally torture.

well...I'm not a coffee drinker...

 

[nOoblet16]

How people are expecting a silent protagonist to lead discussions is beyond me.

They'd rather have other characters say stuff for him, Gordon Freeman style protagonist pandering, than speak for themselves.

That post palace 5 example that was posted by someone, I'm curious how they think the game would have approached that conversation and reached a convincing resolution using a character that doesn't say more than one line ?

The Joker is underdeveloped compared to everyone else in the team due to his very nature of being a quasi blank slate. But he sure has more personality than previous MC simply by the virtue of having more dialogues, inner monologues and the dialogues having a set tone at times.

 

[Opa-Pa]

I think it's fair that Naoto and Kanji's arcs are relevant to specifically japanese social stigmas, but it's a pity that they felt like they had the perfect setup for a trans and gay stories respectively but shied away from them in the last minute. It's specially true to Kanji IMO, and this sort of happens with Yosuke too in a way when you consider he has unused gay romance social link dialogue in the game's data lol.

Goddammit you guys I'm in a extremely important part of P5's story right now, but this Persona talk is way too interesting! (just beat the 6th palace boss and well, yeah).

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

a teenager getting murdered sets an uglier stage than one getting framed. P4 just eases up as it goes.

I disagree. I think you're comparing the wrong things.
Persona 5 Intro/1st Palace Spoilers

Spoiler

First, comparing intros, your MC getting drugged and having the fuck beaten out of him is pretty dark. Then we found out he was framed. And then inciting incident would be the beating and sexual abuse of the volleyball members. The inciting incident in P4 would be the murder. Also you and Ryuji are close to being murdered by Kamoshida.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Just got to that part as well

Spoiler

he was just cleaning her room, what was Futaba doing holding on to that? she should've kept it well hidden

as she said...it

Spoiler

was special to her

I disagree. I think you're comparing the wrong things.
Persona 5 Intro/1st Palace Spoilers

Spoiler

First, comparing intros, your MC getting drugged and having the fuck beaten out of him is pretty dark. Then we found out he was framed. And then inciting incident would be the beating and sexual abuse of the volleyball members. The inciting incident in P4 would be the murder. Also you and Ryuji are close to being murdered by Kamoshida.

while true, one difference is that

Spoiler

Everyone makes it out of the Kamoshida incident. Saki is still dead. Granted some of those wounds will never heal

 

[AgentLampshade]

With all these comments about Joker being like a side character, I'd like to see them make a Persona game where the wild card holder isn't super important to the story and is relegated to a side character instead. While we're at it, they can introduce the wingman protagnist where you can help hook up your party mates while also attempting to pursue your own interest.

No need to pay me for the ideas, Atlus.

I want to see a Wild Card antagonist. Imagine the one-on-one (or 16-on-16?) showdown. I know the velvet siblings wield multiple personas, but it's not the same as infinite potential!!!

 

[MTC100]

well...I'm not a coffee drinker...

Me neither but apparently it restores some of your SP so it must be good for you.

 

[silva1991]

Why exactly though? The picture was posted before already, you mean it's a spoiler that he's disliking honorifics?

I think because it kinda shows an area that we have never seen in any trailer.

 

[Guess Who]

Why exactly though? The picture was posted before already, you mean it's a spoiler that he's disliking honorifics? Also it's not really shocking that Mara is in P5 as well.

(12/24 spoiler)

Spoiler

The location in the image is an endgame dungeon.

 

[daveo42]

You don't see how oppressive that is? Literally torture.

You'd be surprised all the things you can use a burr grinder for.

Skip Valentine day, read that P5 harem doujin by Tachibana, stay winning.

Oddly enough this reminds me that I've seen (not read mind you) of H related to Persona 5. I mean, I'm not surprised...but it's always interesting to see that kind of stuff so soon after launch.

 

[Ultimadrago]

It's very important to not get the fact that the MC is silent and thus the other chars do most of the talking mixed in with the dynamics of the actual group. Joker is 100% the leader. The entire team bands around Joker in pretty much every aspect. He leaders their infiltrations, is their combat leader, and is the one responsible for procuring supplies and support. Makoto is the team's strategist and does the leg work on how to do things but she's not the person that the team rallies around. In essence, Makoto is Zhuge Liang to Joker's Liu Bei, for folks that are familiar with the Three Kingdoms. Not a perfect match but it's pretty similar.

Yeah, despite Makoto's good sense, I've never considered her the leader. While I wish MC would have much more to say, I have no doubt that I'm the SELF-INSERTED LEADER! Even with how it's handled here I still like it better than Bioware's Inquisitor "Person with the Green Hand" route, an even more abrupt approach.