ShadowSoldier89
Member
I accidentally walked onto the wrong floor of Toranoana back in february. Lots of P5 material on the front end cap.
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Persona 5 |OT2| Someone must have been helping you go to bed early. Talk!
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chrominance
Member
...so, um, I'm not actually sure how far I got into Yukari's social link, to the point where I may not have done it at all? It was my first Persona game and I was probably really bad at managing my time. I don't think I ever managed to even open Mitsuru's.
So maybe I should replay P3P with the male MC after the female MC run, heh.
Regarding Joker as the leader, I'm also still not finished with the game (I've finished the fifth palace), but I agree with people who say that Makoto feels like the leader so far. A lot of people say that the end of the game changes their opinion regarding this, and that may very well be true, but then you still go through 90% of the game with Joker not acting like a leader.
I feel like Makoto's role has been greater than that of just a strategist -- she often represents the group, leads discussions, and tries to resolve conflicts. Joker hardly says anything, and even when he does, it's often of little consequence, and quite a few of the possible options are jokes. I feel like most of the leader-like things that Joker does (deciding when to do things, leading combat) show up only as gameplay, and aren't reflected at all in the story scenes, where I just see Makoto doing everything.
Of course, I'll still keep an open mind and see how things play out, but when considering only what I've seen so far, I'd hardly consider Joker to be the leader.
I feel like Makoto's role has been greater than that of just a strategist -- she often represents the group, leads discussions, and tries to resolve conflicts. Joker hardly says anything, and even when he does, it's often of little consequence, and quite a few of the possible options are jokes. I feel like most of the leader-like things that Joker does (deciding when to do things, leading combat) show up only as gameplay, and aren't reflected at all in the story scenes, where I just see Makoto doing everything.
Of course, I'll still keep an open mind and see how things play out, but when considering only what I've seen so far, I'd hardly consider Joker to be the leader.
Suzushiiro
Banned
I somehow didn't get this bonus scene for Sojiro rank 10 but it is pretty much where I'm headed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZmZFAAHelQ
(joke video, not really spoiling anything)
(EDIT: in all seriousness though, in Sojiro's rank 10 there really should have been some sort of different reaction if
)
(joke video, not really spoiling anything)
(EDIT: in all seriousness though, in Sojiro's rank 10 there really should have been some sort of different reaction if
you had romanced Futaba already
Not quite, the Dojima was a wounded family, a father neglecing his lonely daughter. Yet, you will do what you can to bring warmth to the little girl little by little. Both don't open their heart to you and you discover little by little their problem. But you will work on it and soon that place will feel like home, a place you want to protect.
Similar effect happen with Futaba+Sojiro but they don't warm up to you really if you don't do their S-link. Dojima+Nanako were more involved in P4 main story so it was easier to care about them more.
For me the serial murder case felt more dangerous because it was targetting the people you care and love. In P5, we picked up randomly the targets that destiny brought to ya, lol (which kinda annoyed me we could've a cool investigation part between real world and mementos till you find big targets because of clues.)
Harems suck. How can you not let bros like Yusuke and Ryuji get a slice of the pie? Unless Yusuke's somewhere in the background painting their entire orgy or something.
chrominance
Member
I think one aspect of this is that Joker becomes the leader because he's good at fighting and directing people in combat, which as you say are GAMEPLAY features, not narrative ones. In a weird way, this means his leadership qualities are actually the player's leadership qualities, and thus appear invisible to you.
Ultimadrago
Member
I missed that one too.
Wish I got it!
I'd have to equip my Thor Persona first though
Exactly. So why should we assume they would ever go down that route? Especially when the other interpretation is so much more convenient and something they have far more experience with.
I remember they mentioned taking feedback from players in the P4 design work. I don't have it on me, but i'll check when I get home.
Yep kanji may be bi, but i feel the game cares much more of making fun of his fondness of cute things that it doesn't quite seem it was their intention making that point at all, it feels it could be better written in the game :/ yosuke says so many homophobic jokes it doesn't feel they give kanji enough respect y'know? Maybe p2 spoiled me since they respected the lgbt character there :/
Now about naoto, i think it's harder to interpret than it seems, for instance i'm not trans, yet sometimes i just wished i was a boy because they seem to have it much easier in life than us, and atlus kinda let us see the situation as it fits, had them be more decisive in their writing i'd gladly take this approach when analising that part of the game, but for me it feels a bit in the open... we don't know if she felt confortable wearing man clothes or if they were like a prison to her since she had to wear those to be accepted by others, for example, in the end she starts accepting she is a woman and there's no problem with that, so i guess they chose the second interpretation, whether this makes the game better or worse i can't say, it's the safe choice regardless
I think it's kind of established that Ryuji has no game and Yusuke is just socially awkward.
it could just be mementos though, I guess no one that hasn't seen it would know what it is.
snow in jamaica
Member
Wild Card antagonist, while the player characters revert to the P1 and P2 system of everyone switching Personas based on Arcana compatibility.
The protagonist's Arcana can be determined with a questionnaire.
Ultimadrago
Member
I know, right? Ryuji can't even give you Thank You chocolate on Valentine's Day like Kanji in Persona 4. Thoughtless!
Son Of Sparda
Member
Okay, I'm not asking for a silent protag to just stay there and everything suddenly fix itself. What I'm saying is putting a silent protag in a leading role and then ignoring him and then acting like he is all important is not smart and makes you see him as a weak character.
They either should've voiced him*, or had him in a non-leading role.
*And I'm not sure why they don't since this is not like Fallout or Mass Effect or anything like that where you have freedom in the story and should do tons of voiced lines. Just voice your protag like every other character Atlus.
They either should've voiced him*, or had him in a non-leading role.
*And I'm not sure why they don't since this is not like Fallout or Mass Effect or anything like that where you have freedom in the story and should do tons of voiced lines. Just voice your protag like every other character Atlus.
P4 isn't dark, but there's a twin peaks vibe that's something I really crave in games. If I had to describe P4's tone, it's "nostalgic". And I don't mean nostalgia for P4, I mean nostalgia itself. I dunno, conversations about "darkness" are kinda stupid to me. I care more about how much I can relate to a story's feel than how many deaths there are or how spooky it is. I think it's really really silly to say that P4 is the odd one out for Hashino, because the game is still about people dealing with personal issues. They match the tone with the themes.
On MC being a leader: He's the leader because he makes the decisions. That's what a leader does. He can have advisers and strategists, but the key element of a leader is that they're the one responsible for deciding what to do. The persona games pull this off well enough, with the exception of 3, where you literally were not the leader at all. Everyone does all the talking, but it's basically implied that Joker is the one who is *making the choice* of when to go into dungeons, when to fight enemies, when to go after a target, etc.
On MC being a leader: He's the leader because he makes the decisions. That's what a leader does. He can have advisers and strategists, but the key element of a leader is that they're the one responsible for deciding what to do. The persona games pull this off well enough, with the exception of 3, where you literally were not the leader at all. Everyone does all the talking, but it's basically implied that Joker is the one who is *making the choice* of when to go into dungeons, when to fight enemies, when to go after a target, etc.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
I was going to say something similar to this. He's a CEO-style leader, delegating tasks but still forcing everyone else to adhere to his schedule and managing all the funds and equipment himself. He's also the only person who crafts gear and tools for dungeon runs, and the only person who decides which enemies to fight. You can even get a conversation in Mementos where
Haru
Plus he's literally their trump card in battle, and even blatantly named for it. Also, endgame spoilers. *shrug*
Seems like Yusuke and Futaba are made for each other then.
What? They've gone down the trans route multiple times. But it always ends the same way. "Trans people are really just their original gender" They told Naoto that its fine to be a woman, so she accepted it. In Catherine, Erica is treated as a man by the god entity, as well as by her friends, as well as transphobic comments littered throughout as just facts. They do it poorly, but they've done it before, so I don't know why you assume they just wouldn't ever have trans characters.
If Naoto felt that the guy clothes were restrictive, then she wouldn't keep wearing them after she was forced to accept she was a woman. Atlus also did not let you see it how it fits at all. Its a shitty trans narrative that Japan has done over and over again. A trans character appears. People say "Its okay, we like you how you are now" They get over it, and go "Oh, I never thought of it that way, I guess that's that!'
yeah, it'd be pretty wild if they made a persona game with a wild card antagonist, huh
klabautermann
Member
That's also a fair way to look it. I mean, I obviously can't say for sure either way because I don't know the guy, but I've genuinely enjoyed all of his games either way.
I think this sums up perfectly my thoughs on p4, it wasn't their intention but the set up was so good it feels like they messed up
Son Of Sparda
Member
I swear sometimes I feel like I'm playing an entirely different game. Joker makes decisions outside of gameplay?
Naoto does stop wearing men's clothing, though, in the epilogue.
Shouta
Member
Yep. The gameplay features are the aspects of Joker's leadership within the story itself but is invisible to the player because it's what we're doing.
In the golden only epilogue. I'm not talking about extra crap that was added in later to fit their narrative that she's okay with it. I'm talking about the original game.
In fairness, that wasn't in vanilla P4.
Yeah, I think some people are making a gameplay/narrative divide here that doesn't really exist - what you do in the gameplay is absolutely part of the narrative.
I am so glad that I wasn't spoiled on anything from the game. I think I'm about to face the final boss this time, it's been a rollercoaster. Takes me back when I complained in here that (mid game spoilers)
and someone in here told me not to worry because it could have been way worse. He was right, oh my god.
a YT video had Akechi's phantom thief costume as the preview picture
Yes, you, the MC, are making the majority of the decisions in the game. I don't see how that's hard to grasp?
I don't want to dismiss your complaint entirely, but that's a much larger conversation about silent protagonists vs. voiced protagonists. I think that, for having a silent protagonist, there's no question that Joker is the leader of the group.
That's really no excuse for the MC to be a harem master. Pairings can work because of those issues, if anything.
Multiple times? Disregarding Erica (who doesn't have much of an arc), I can't think of when they've done it outside of NPCs (and those characters are explicitly transgender)
For what it's worth, I have an issue with the "it's okay to be a woman" resolution too, but mainly because it doesn't actually solve Naoto's issues (workplace inequality / being marginalized by society). She just accepts them and continues being an awesome detective.
Doesn't she ask to the group that they keep referring to her with male pronouns in the japanese version as well? I may be wrong, but I recall reading something about it. She may have supposedly accepted being a woman, but she definitely still feels more comfortable posing as a man.
Autoignition
Member
All of P4's characters had that problem, though. No one's issues ever really got solved. They all just sort of... learned to accept the shitty hand they were dealt. And, like, that was it, that was the resolution.
Shouta
Member
Son Of Sparda
Member
You mean attacking, going into and moving around the palaces and stuff like that? I mean, come on man. This is not a VN, the game needs to have some sort of gameplay.
Spinosaurus
Member
My skill exceeds yours!
'Back woods town' helps to make it feel similar in vibe, with all the crazy characters (I still miss the teachers from 4) and the hubub over murders in a seemingly quiet town. Even then, the story felt way too much like a season of Scooby Doo where they find out Mr. Jenkins was the one pulling the stings all along. The stakes are higher and people die, but it's more high school hijinks and it plays into most of the characters over the course of the story.
I think I'm more interested in a 'serious' persona over one that's just 'dark'.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
It's also worth mentioning that Joker literally spends the half of the game that isn't dungeon crawling building up a reliable network of accomplices to support the team's activities. Starting Hanged Man literally has a thought bubble where he remarks to himself that he needs to go along with the shady relationship if the team is to get stronger.
He's the only human character whose life revolves around the Phantom Thieves 100%.
He's the only human character whose life revolves around the Phantom Thieves 100%.
I think you misunderstand Naoto chan there, she's wearing the "male" clothes(women wear that stuff too where I live) and masking her gender not because she is trans, she does so to not be viewed as a girl, so it's more of a inferiority complex or rather the idea that society "wants" a male detective and not a female one. That's also something she tells you about at some point in the game. I also think she looks better in her regular clothes than in a skirt
I feel like this part is more about laziness from atlus part, her acceptance of being a woman comes in part from the social link, which some players will never get to finish, she ends up wearing female clothing by the end of golden and all other spin offs set after the game ends, but I agree they should've addressed this in the base game, it feels really weird and it is really frustrating :/
As if they never really decided what to do with her character
Ultimadrago
Member
Love it.
ASilentProtagonist
Member
If you want really dark JRPG's just check out the mainline SMT games, love em to bits.
Shouta
Member
That's the point though. The game isn't a VN and as such the gameplay is a part of the narrative. It's using the strengths of the medium for the story. Joker not feeling like a leader is a viewpoint that only works if you look at the story as if it were written for a book or a show.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
The thing about "male pronouns" in the Japanese version is a bit more complicated than that. (P4 spoilers)
So, in the English version of the game, Naoto asks you late in her social link whether she should speak with a lower or higher voice. In the Japanese, she asks whether you'd prefer she refer to herself with "boku" or "atashi". "Boku" is generally considered more "masculine," and "atashi" is generally more "feminine," but they aren't quite as strictly gendered as English him/her pronouns - it's not uncommon for "tomboy" women to use boku (or even "ore", which is even more "masculine"), for instance, while still identifying as women.
Autoignition
Member
What was interesting about Naoto's arc was that it also touched on representation issues. She talked about how all of her idols growing up were detectives in crime novels, and all of those characters were men. She couldn't see herself in them, which is a huge problem with young girls and media in general. Her thought process became, "This is a man's job, so I need to become a man." It was never, "I feel that I am a man and wish my appearance reflected that."