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Persona 5 |OT2| Someone must have been helping you go to bed early. Talk!

P

PK Gaming

Member
nOoblet16 said:
So why does Goro walk around with a suitcase with Avengers logo?
Click to expand...

The A stands for Akechi.

Autoignition said:
All of P4's characters had that problem, though. No one's issues ever really got solved. They all just sort of... learned to accept the shitty hand they were dealt. And, like, that was it, that was the resolution.
Click to expand...

???

Yosuke goes from being a city kid who hates the boonies and the people around him to a dependable guy who loves Inaba.

Yukiko comes to the conclusion that she isn't some bird trapped in a cage, and when given the choice between ditching Inaba or staying home, she chooses the latter because she loves her family.

Chie resolves to become a police officer.

Rise decides to continue continue working as an idol for the sake of her fans/she loves doing it.

Kanji's slink is a touching story about accepting his femininity and learning
that when his dying father told him to be strong, he didn't mean it in a literal sense.

Naoto's slink is about... chasing the Phantom Thief?

It's not really the same situation at all.
 
Q

QuadOpto

Member
Son Of Sparda said:
I swear sometimes I feel like I'm playing an entirely different game. Joker makes decisions outside of gameplay?
Click to expand...

But that's the thing; I don't get why gameplay cannot be placed as evidence of Joker being the leader? The game makes it very clear, through gameplay, that you are the one making the charge. You are the one leading the crew through the palaces. You're the one buying and ordering the use of supplies and equipment. You are the one that decides when to initiate combat and the one who carries out negotiations.
Hell, a number of times you are the one bringing requests (like it or not the Confidant Memento Requests are still considered missions by the team that they unanimously agree on whenever you bring them up.) to the table. And, by the end of the game, you clearly show your capacity as the charismatic leader of the Phantom Thieves. The whole end of the game practically relies on you being that
.
 
D

daveo42

Banned
Son Of Sparda said:
You mean attacking, going into and moving around the palaces and stuff like that? I mean, come on man. This is not a VN, the game needs to have some sort of gameplay.
Click to expand...

You're actually making all of the decisions for Joker. He's not 100% a blank slate, but he is in your control and because of that, you as Joker dictates everything he does. What to do every day, including when to go to a palace or hang out with someone and build his network of confidants to advance the goals of the Phantom Thieves. There are a few times they kind of railroad you into following specific advice and I wish those moments were more open, but he is the leader because he (you) are the one in control of where things go and when.
 
F

Fandangox

Member
SMTIV:A was really fun, but the story's had absolutely no middle ground between POWER OF FRIENDSHIP and OW THE EDGE, no nuance at all. Dagda is basically Coldsteel the hedgehog.

tumblr_oe2mplCjdt1sad3oxo1_500.jpg


STM3, SMTIV, Devil Survivor, and Soul Hackers are much more consistent in tone, regardless of other faults they may have. If anyone's looking for a darker SMT.

Edit: This posts looks out of place, because I left my tab open, but this was in reply to the whole P4/P3 talk and darker SMT games that was on the previous page.
 
S

Son Of Sparda

Member
Shouta said:
That's the point though. The game isn't a VN and as such the gameplay is a part of the narrative. It's using the strengths of the medium for the story. Joker not feeling like a leader is a viewpoint that only works if you look at the story as if it were written for a book or a show.
Click to expand...
I've said that before but I don't find that to be a good argument. I mean, if we look at it this way, then every playable character that works within a party should be a leader, otherwise the narratives are flawed.
 
P

Ponn

Banned
Zesh said:
Regarding Joker as the leader, I'm also still not finished with the game (I've finished the fifth palace), but I agree with people who say that Makoto feels like the leader so far. A lot of people say that the end of the game changes their opinion regarding this, and that may very well be true, but then you still go through 90% of the game with Joker not acting like a leader.

I feel like Makoto's role has been greater than that of just a strategist -- she often represents the group, leads discussions, and tries to resolve conflicts. Joker hardly says anything, and even when he does, it's often of little consequence, and quite a few of the possible options are jokes. I feel like most of the leader-like things that Joker does (deciding when to do things, leading combat) show up only as gameplay, and aren't reflected at all in the story scenes, where I just see Makoto doing everything.

Of course, I'll still keep an open mind and see how things play out, but when considering only what I've seen so far, I'd hardly consider Joker to be the leader.
Click to expand...

I'm finding Makoto's code name to be completely appropriate for the role she takes on. I've been viewing the whole team much more like a family now where as in P4 I saw them all as just a group of friends. Protag and Makoto keep coming off as the parental types of the group. Then you have the two bickering siblings, the youngest with the problems that needs attention, the scatterbrained semi-eccentric aunt, the creepy ass uncle that keeps popping up out of nowhere and asking people to strip and of course the family pet.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Son Of Sparda said:
I've said that before but I don't find that to be a good argument. I mean, if we look at it this way, then every playable character that works within a party should be a leader, otherwise the narratives are flawed.
Click to expand...
Joker is the one who makes the calls in what's going on, what the team is doing, he has final say on targets, when they go into palaces, who had what role and how they acclimate to that role.

He makes leadership decisions, like, I never saw one part of the game where he's not making the call it figuring out methods to improve the thieves.
 
M

MTC100

Banned
Autoignition said:
What was interesting about Naoto's arc was that it also touched on representation issues. She talked about how all of her idols growing up were detectives in crime novels, and all of those characters were men. She couldn't see herself in them, which is a huge problem with young girls and media in general. Her thought process became, "This is a man's job, so I need to become a man." It was never, "I feel that I am a man and wish my appearance reflected that."
Click to expand...

Good summary, she's mostly delusional because of a lack of role models. Funny enough that's a real issue for girls in the real world too, so Atlus did indeed touch an interesting topic with Naoto. -I'm sure however she would do just fine if she weren't a detective prince but a princess instead.
 
B

Blackquill

Member
7th palace
can you still build up social link even after beating the boss of the palace ? If yes, does it gives you more social links option because after the 12/10,
you have basically no hangout opportunity
 
Autoignition

Autoignition

Member
PK Gaming said:
???

Yosuke goes from being a city kid who hates the boonies and the people around him to a dependable guy who loves Inaba.

Yukiko comes to the conclusion that she isn't some bird trapped in a cage, and when given the choice between ditching Inaba or staying home, she chooses the latter because she loves her family.

Chie resolves to become a police officer.

Rise decides to continue continue working as an idol for the sake of her fans/she loves doing it.

Kanji's slink is a touching story about accepting his feminity and learning
that when his dying father told him to be strong, he didn't mean it in a literal sense.

Naoto's slink is about... chasing the Phantom Thief?

It's not really the same situation at all.
Click to expand...

You weren't talking about S Links, though, you were talking about how Naoto's core problem (sexism in law enforcement) never gets resolved. Instead, she just kind of accepted things for what they were and moved on. You could absolutely make the same case for Yosuke's feelings about small-town life, Yukiko's feelings about being trapped to her family's business, Rise's feelings about no one ever seeing the real her, etc.

The circumstances around those characters never changed; the characters themselves changed. Same with Naoto. No, the problem with sexism in law enforcement never changed, but Naoto's attitude towards it sure did.
 
P

PK Gaming

Member
Ponn said:
I'm finding Makoto's code name to be completely appropriate for the role she takes on. I've been viewing the whole team much more like a family now where as in P4 I saw them all as just a group of friends. Protag and Makoto keep coming off as the parental types of the group. Then you have the two bickering siblings, the youngest with the problems that needs attention, the scatterbrained semi-eccentric aunt, the creepy ass uncle that keeps popping up out of nowhere and asking people to strip and of course the family pet.
Click to expand...

iOdAmv0.png
 
J

Jisgsaw

Member
So I'm in October, and after checking, it seems I haven't done the Convenience Store Memento mission (which apparently unlocks in August).
The problem for me is that working there twice didn't unlock it... Is there any way to trigger it?
 
S

snow in jamaica

Member
Lunar15 said:
I dunno, conversations about "darkness" are kinda stupid to me. I care more about how much I can relate to a story's feel than how many deaths there are or how spooky it is.
Click to expand...

I think people just like a certain mood, but "dark" is a really nebulous term so I don't even know what it means anymore.
 
S

Son Of Sparda

Member
Frozenprince said:
Joker is the one who makes the calls in what's going on, what the team is doing, he has final say on targets, when they go into palaces, who had what role and how they acclimate to that role.

He makes leadership decisions, like, I never saw one part of the game where he's not making the call it figuring out methods to improve the thieves.
Click to expand...
Again, this is a game so these parts have to exist. And they do in other games where you are not portrayed as a leader, as well. If we are thinking like that, then do you say that other games that don't have the main character as a leader, are flawed in their narratives?

Anyway, I'm off to playing more of P5. Hopefully it'll get interesting again.
 
M

MTC100

Banned
Frozenprince said:
Joker is the one who makes the calls in what's going on, what the team is doing, he has final say on targets, when they go into palaces, who had what role and how they acclimate to that role.
Click to expand...

That's right, he calls the shots, not Makoto or anyone else. It's true that once inside a dungeon he's pretty much laid back and let others do their job but when it comes to it he will stand up as a leader(like in the casino) and proof his worth. It's also very clear that he is the driving force behind the Phantom thieves in the later stages of the game.
 
Ultimadrago

Ultimadrago

Member
Xeteh said:
And Mishima. For sad and obsessive reasons.
Click to expand...

Yep. (All Moon Confidant)
Increased feelings of inadequacy in the presence of greatness.
It's a sad story that I find many could find some relation to.
Maybe that's why he hits a sore mark with so many! lol. The resolution showed a surprising amount of restraint as well.
 
K

Ketkat

Member
PK Gaming said:
Multiple times? Disregarding Erica (who doesn't have much of an arc), I can't think of when they've done it outside of NPCs (and those characters are explicitly transgender)
.
Click to expand...

Let's see. Persona 3's babe hunt ends with the guys using classic trans-panic when they hit on a trans woman in the game.

Persona 2 liked to play trans characters for "laughs" as well.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb8cdzUuDu1rtpj2lo1_500.png

Also, I was looking up the Sumaru Genie, and it seems up for debate on whether that character is trans or intersex.

Persona 4 has Naoto.

Also, don't disregard Erica. She had an arc in the background with Toby the whole time. She was given the nightmares, as well as Toby saying "Something seemed off" despite the fact he was a virgin prior to sleeping with her.

Mariip said:
I feel like this part is more about laziness from atlus part, her acceptance of being a woman comes in part from the social link, which some players will never get to finish, she ends up wearing female clothing by the end of golden and all other spin offs set after the game ends, but I agree they should've addressed this in the base game, it feels really weird and it is really frustrating :/
As if they never really decided what to do with her character
Click to expand...
I'd be more willing to believe it was laziness if their handling of trans characters hasn't been so incredibly poor in the past.
 
L

Lusankya

Member
Toki767 said:
It doesn't give points per se.

It makes it so that your Confidant is ready to go up in Rank the next time you hang out with them.
Click to expand...

No, that's not how it works.
It gives points and sometimes it's enough for a rank up and sometimes it's not and you need to do it again on another day.
 
P

PK Gaming

Member
Autoignition said:
You weren't talking about S Links, though, you were talking about how Naoto's core problem (sexism in law enforcement) never gets resolved. Instead, she just kind of accepted things for what they were and moved on. You could absolutely make the same case for Yosuke's feelings about small-town life, Yukiko's feelings about being trapped to her family's business, Rise's feelings about no one ever seeing the real her, etc.

The circumstances around those characters never changed; the characters themselves changed. Same with Naoto. No, the problem with sexism in law enforcement never changed, but Naoto's attitude towards it sure did.
Click to expand...

But the core problems holding back the other characters were almost entirely internal though. Yosuke's view on Inaba changed. Yukiko's outlook on life changed. Same with Rise's view on her career. Naoto literally has real world obstacles holding her back and her social link barely (if ever?) talks about them. After faffing around solving mysteries, she just comes to the conclusion that she loves solving mysteries and that she shouldn't worry about things because Y(o)u were there for her.

There's no punch.
 
D

daveo42

Banned
Toki767 said:
It doesn't give points per se.

It makes it so that your Confidant is ready to go up in Rank the next time you hang out with them.
Click to expand...

I think it gives you have the same amount you get from spending time praying at the shrine, just without losing an afternoon activity.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
PK Gaming said:
But the core problems holding back the other characters were almost entirely internal though. Yosuke's view on Inaba changed. Yukiko's outlook on life changed. Same with Rise's view on her career. Naoto literally has real world obstacles holding her back and her social link barely (if ever?) talks about them. After faffing around solving mysteries, she just comes to the conclusion that she loves solving mysteries and that she shouldn't worry about things because Y(o)u were there for her.

There's no punch.
Click to expand...

Given that it comes basically last and you only have just over a month to engage with it while needing Max knowledge. I am inclined to think they kinda half assed her link.
 
R

RalchAC

Member
Ponn said:
I'm finding Makoto's code name to be completely appropriate for the role she takes on. I've been viewing the whole team much more like a family now where as in P4 I saw them all as just a group of friends. Protag and Makoto keep coming off as the parental types of the group. Then you have the two bickering siblings, the youngest with the problems that needs attention, the scatterbrained semi-eccentric aunt, the creepy ass uncle that keeps popping up out of nowhere and asking people to strip and of course the family pet.
Click to expand...

The problem with the silent protagonist format is that often various characters need to pick up the slack and be the MC voice.

I agree with Queen being a leader type in a lot of cases. However, the games give some room for you to tell her to relax when she gets carried away. She mostly remains calm because she is used to it, but she is much more impulsive than it initially seems.

The game gives you various choices at different times during the story and dungeon crawling where you can say what to do next. If you don't choose the correct box (which usually can be chosen by using common sense) she corrects you.

I didn't have any issues with her role. She is pretty much your voice in some serious moments, but it's a common tool for those kind of protagonist.

And I love the MC sense of humor.
 
O

Opa-Pa

Member
Post 6th palace boss HEAVY spoilers
Holy shit did I get a bad ending?
I didn't expect to see my character literally get a bullet in the head wow.

Anyway damn these plot twists. I saw some coming but the execution itself has been wonder.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
RalchAC said:
The problem with the silent protagonist format is that often various characters need to pick up the slack and be the MC voice.

I agree with Queen being a leader type in a lot of cases. However, the games give some room for you to tell her to relax when she gets carried away. She mostly remains calm because she is used to it, but she is much more impulsive than it initially seems.

The game gives you various choices at different times during the story and dungeon crawling where you can say what to do next. If you don't choose the correct box (which usually can be chosen by using common sense) she corrects you.

I didn't have any issues with her role. She is pretty much your voice in some serious moments, but it's a common tool for those kind of protagonist.

And I love the MC sense of humor.
Click to expand...
"There are too many dudes..."
 
R

RalchAC

Member
Opa-Pa said:
Post 6th palace boss HEAVY spoilers
Holy shit did I get a bad ending?
I didn't expect to see my character literally get a bullet in the head wow
Click to expand...

Yeah, you did. You should be ashamed and return the game. Be sure to watch t
he gloomy cutscene and feel guilty. You gotta endure the consequences of failing.

Don't turn off the console. The bad ending is worth watching imo.
 
M

Mariip

Member
Ketkat said:
Let's see. Persona 3's babe hunt ends with the guys using classic trans-panic when they hit on a trans woman in the game.

Persona 2 liked to play trans characters for "laughs" as well.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb8cdzUuDu1rtpj2lo1_500.png

Also, I was looking up the Sumaru Genie, and it seems up for debate on whether that character is trans or intersex.

Persona 4 has Naoto.

Also, don't disregard Erica. She had an arc in the background with Toby the whole time. She was given the nightmares, as well as Toby saying "Something seemed off" despite the fact he was a virgin prior to sleeping with her.


I'd be more willing to believe it was laziness if their handling of trans characters hasn't been so incredibly poor in the past.
Click to expand...
And that's why i find peace thinking Naoto-kun was never supposed to be a badly written attempt at portraying a trans character, she works way better as a comentary on sexism than as a half-assed trans character :/

Their best lgbt character so far was Jun in p2 and nobody played p2 : since then they went downhill
I don't think atlus has ever written a good trans character, the bar is so low some people actually praise Erica ffs :mad:
 
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