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Persona Community Thread |OT5| Pull up a chair! [NO PQ OR P4U SPOILERS!]

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K

kewlmyc

Member
Gooch: The Destroyer said:
I guess so. They didn't dub the Persona 3 movie which sucks because I want to focus on the action.

It is expensive so, I'll have to read.
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Movie hasn't even been out 6 months yet. Dubbing will take a while. With anime it could take anywhere between a year to 3 years to dub. Plus they could be waiting for all the movies to finish.
 
B

buddha0991

Member
Acid08 said:
Well said here, PK.

This isn't the first time someone has compared Yosuke's treatment of Kanji to Rise's and I just don't see it. The game NEVER portrays Yosuke as helping out Kanji like Rise does. He just says dumb shit to Kanji for the entire game.
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He wants to hire Kanji at Junes for his impressive ability to organize things, also the heart to heart the three guys have at the beach. Also his internal monologue in P4A shows he actually has a lot of respect for Kanji but would never tell it to his face for pride lel.
 
M

Moonlight

Banned
PK Gaming said:
[snip]

TL;DR Rise is a fantastic character, and she can definitely stand on his own two feet. Her entire character arc is about determining her own path in life. To simply call it ‘wish fulfillment’ altogether displays a misunderstanding of her character history, her personality, her development and the developer's intentions.

I hope this cleared things up.
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I nominate this as best post of the OT so far.
 
S

ScraftyDevil

Banned
PK Gaming said:
*awesome*
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Ee7GqqSl.jpg


I think it's safe to say that you "get" Rise better than anyone else who posts in this thread.

Sorry, Smed.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Yeah, I seem to recall that there were a couple points where Rise and Kanji were just kind of there together without explanation, which would make it really weird to suggest they had an antagonistic relationship.
 
C

CorvoSol

Member
buddha0991 said:
He wants to hire Kanji at Junes for his impressive ability to organize things, also the heart to heart the three guys have at the beach. Also his internal monologue in P4A shows he actually has a lot of respect for Kanji but would never tell it to his face for pride lel.
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Yeah I kinda feel sad when people take shots at Yosuke because he's sort of how I see the way I was as a teenager and traits of him are still there in me. I like to think that Yosuke will grow out of picking at Kanji's weak point, and it isn't like Kanji can't dish back at Yosuke. He and Yu get him pretty good in one of P4A's endings.

I just sort of like the idea of Yosuke as someone who sucks and is aware he isn't everything he'd like to be. For as much as he teases Kanji, I can't help but bet that there are times when he wishes he didn't. Seems like the kind of guy who would say one thing and instantly regret it. Plus that whole being surrounded by people who are much more talented and driven than he is, even if he'd like to be more up to snuff.

Course, I think I might just really like the right hand man in Persona games. Mark, Junpei and Yosuke have all been stand out characters to me. Eikichi will likely be the same.
 
A

Acid08

Banned
buddha0991 said:
He wants to hire Kanji at Junes for his impressive ability to organize things, also the heart to heart the three guys have at the beach. Also his internal monologue in P4A shows he actually has a lot of respect for Kanji but would never tell it to his face for pride lel.
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P4A is fan fiction tho, doesn't count.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Sophia said:
Anime licensees don't want an English release comprising sales for the Japanese version. Which is why we're getting a pricy Aniplex version instead of something more reasonable. Plus dubs take time.
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I'm still amazed at the logistical accomplishment Space Dandy's dub/sub release was.
 
S

Sophia

Member
Tamanon said:
I'm still amazed at the logistical accomplishment Space Dandy's dub/sub release was.
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Seriously. Whoever pulled that off deserves credit. That's never happened before and if the state of things continue may not ever happen again. o_O;

In fact, that probably only ever happened because it was Shinichirō Watanabe.

CorvoSol said:
I've only vaguely heard of this. What was wrong with it?
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Junes Robot. Also Naoto has a Robot Motorcycle Partner.
 
S

SpacePirate Ridley

Member
LelouchViBritannia said:
I always assumed it was

Narukami and Yukiko or Rise
Chie and Yosuke
Naoto and Kanji
Teddie and his right hand.
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I think we had this same argument a week or two ago. Im with you here, the game wants to try to force that way a little (it really clear during the ski vacation in golden), but seems other people don't see it.
I don't mind either way, I made Chie my waifu in my headcanon lol
I wouldn't mind in the next game flags in the dialogue depending of you actions that make the different characters in your group more near or far to each of them, it something that ME3 tried to do with some success.

CorvoSol said:
Yeah I kinda feel sad when people take shots at Yosuke because he's sort of how I see the way I was as a teenager and traits of him are still there in me. I like to think that Yosuke will grow out of picking at Kanji's weak point, and it isn't like Kanji can't dish back at Yosuke. He and Yu get him pretty good in one of P4A's endings.

I just sort of like the idea of Yosuke as someone who sucks and is aware he isn't everything he'd like to be. For as much as he teases Kanji, I can't help but bet that there are times when he wishes he didn't. Seems like the kind of guy who would say one thing and instantly regret it. Plus that whole being surrounded by people who are much more talented and driven than he is, even if he'd like to be more up to snuff.

Course, I think I might just really like the right hand man in Persona games. Mark, Junpei and Yosuke have all been stand out characters to me. Eikichi will likely be the same.
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This is also how I see Yosuke. He never means harm and he really likes Kanji as friend even if sometimes he overrrects saying stupid things to him.
Of course Rise is the one in the group apart from Yu that treats Kanji best, but I dont think ANY one in the group doesn't like be with Kanji as a good friend.
 
M

Meia

Member
Lunar15 said:
My two cents:

There's a huge difference between making a life-changing decision and self-actualizing. Persona is far more about the latter than the former. Jung's theories of coming to grips with your own shadows are not purely about rejecting them in order to become something new: It's about learning to be ok with who you are. While that may seem trite and after-school special-y, it's really something we all must deal with at some point or another.

For P4, it's about removing yourself from the way society defines how you are and seeing yourself how you define yourself. If you'll notice, most party social links follow the same pattern. The person wants to change after acknowledging their shadow but after being confronted with some external, antagonistic force, they realize that they need to embrace the positive aspects of the shadow rather than trying to extinguish it entirely. They finally return to the situation having found their own reason, rather than a societal reason, to continue living the way they have.

Society roles are a much bigger topic of discussion in Japan than they are here, and I really have to commend the localization team to wording everything in a way that really works in our cultural context. That being said, I think some of it doesn't carry across and it can seem kind of reductive for social links to end where they started. It's more that the characters are discovering why they do the things they do rather than changing the things they do.
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Probably late to the convo as I just got home and have to sleep soon for another fun filled evening of work, but yeah, this is a massive point.


You also have to remember Rise didn't exactly apply to become an idol in the first place, and went with it because she figured it would be a solution to her problems. Instead, it caused her more problems and she just went along with it til she burned herself out. Her
deciding at the end of her link to actually become an idol again is her actually gaining some kind of control of her life, which is something all the characters lack when they face their shadow selves, really. And no, in the strip club she comes to the conclusion that she doesn't have a "real" self, that all of it is made up. Her link comes to the opposite, more correct conclusion in that ALL of those aspects are herself.



The funny thing is, with how I see Rise, I see what a shadow of someone with the Fool arcana *could* become. Hell, usually for maxing every link in a playthrough you're given a mask that, while a flag unlocking the ability to make the ultimate persona, is given to you saying you mastered putting on many masks to get through all the links. You basically tell people exactly what they want to hear every time, and you eventually can get to a point where your opinion becomes THAT. You won't have an opinion yourself anymore, and just go with what would make anyone else happy. I easily see Rise, as an idol, having this problem. Funnily enough I think Fuuka has this problem as well in P3.
 
D

DryEyeRelief

Member
PK Gaming said:
No, not at all. According to the design works, the concept for her character was a cute but emotionally complex idol. And I wouldn't call it wish fulfillment, considering Rise spends the majority of Persona 4 as a regular person. Her social link even lampshades this. At one point, Rise questions if you're hanging out with her because she was Risette (and you get the most points when you say no). Trying to suggest that she is one is just an incredibly cynical view on her character. The thing is, Rise is a person first and an idol second, not the other way around. The effect that her idol days had on her shows through in everything she does: her personality, her motivations, her actions, her social link and even her understanding of other people. She's defined by it, but she's not some glamorous accessory for the player (Well, unless you're Yosuke, who spends most of the game gushing over how she's a super kawaii desu idol but that's because he's a tactless idiot).
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That's not true lampshading. Lampshading has to do with acknowledging story tropes/holes/conventions within said story. It's like Naoto acknowledging that her social link has nothing to do with current events, but they're going to solve riddles anyway because it pisses her off.

Secondly, you telling me she's defined by it is enough. She doesn't have to be this accessory...just the simple fact that her former career path is what specializes and individualizes her among everyone else. Rise isn't a real person, and thus isn't going to appeal to people the same way an actual celebrity would. But it's about what she represents within the story. On another note, it's funny I say this because I recall reading people liking Rise because Laura Bailey voices her. Heh.

To compare another character, Yukiko was characterized initially the same way. She was this girl who was desired by every guy at school. But that was never talked about beyond the beginning of the story. It was just a springboard for Chie and Yukiko's later development. When I hear person first, disposition second. I think of something like that. Not Rise.

The thing is, there are other characters in Persona with shameless premises. Aigis, Nanako, P4 Devil Social link. That doesn't mean they are precluded from becoming worthwhile characters. However, I personally don't think Rise ever gets over that hump.

PK Gaming said:
She's pretty damn mature. Her silliness belies a person who actually has a deep understanding of other people (which ties back to her scanning/mission control concept) and generally strives to make people happy. Her social link has her resolving to become an idol again, even despite the countless hardship and struggles she endured, because she could put a smile on faceless fan's face. Naoto is not mature; she puts on a persona of being an adult, but she's insecure and definitely has the wrong ideas about maturity. Her arc deals with slowing coming to grips with that.
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You make it sound like the letter was the impetus for her change when it wasn't.

As far as Naoto is concerned I'll just concede to you cause she's handled so badly.


PK Gaming said:
You have a fundamental lack of understanding of their relationship then. P4(G) makes it clear that Rise and Kanji are actually really close. She constantly tries to make Kanji feel better, usually by constantly dropping by his house (much to his annoyance) or by simply hanging out with him at school.Yes, she was insensitive to Kanji, at first, but she makes up for it by praising his skills and requesting some dolls. (which directly resulted in raising Kanji's confidence) She even helps him out with Naoto during the ski trip event. She's the only other IT character we see interacting with Kanji during his social link, and they're scene hanging out during other social links/free time events (such as Marie, or the group shopping dating) The Rise/Kanji relationship is one of the most genuine friendships in the game. Sure they argue and call each other names, and Rise overextends herself (like telling Naoto that Kanji has a crush on her... sheesh) but they also care about each other. The game outright spells it out for you in NPC dialogue, where some of students wonder if they're dating.
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There's also an NPC that asks you whether or not Naoto and Rise are dating. BFD. I think them being together is similar in the way Yosuke, Yukiko and Chie are with P4MC most of the time. They're in the same grade, and they are both involved with Personas, so they're going to interact more. Yukari and Junpei in P3 is another good example.

And as far as genuine friendship is concerned, most of what you describe is one sided. Maybe I'm biased because I favor Kanji but all I remember is his tepid response to Rise in the Beauty Pageant compared to his enthusiasm for the other 3 girls.

Again I'll emphasize that if Yosuke walked around saying "Moronji" then Acid08 would have another reason to hate him.



PK Gaming said:
Excuse me? All of the IT social link's are retreads, the difference is, you're getting the full version instead of a cliff-notes version of her development. That's a problem with P4's social links, but that's not really in dispute here. Her social link operates on the concept of "show, don't tell" so we fully understand her motivations for all of her actions. Her social link was pretty enjoyable, since it didn't immediately follow a linear path (you spend quite a bit of time just "hanging" out with Rise in a natural fashion, and, at first she's fine with being a regular person).
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They're not retreads. You didn't actually pay attention to all of them if you think that. Or maybe you just don't understand my criticism with Rise's. The social links are topical in regards to what happened in the dungeons but they aren't retreads, because they actively build off of the conclusions made prior. Rise's is the only exception.

Secondly, spending time with Rise with no real defined story. This isn't pandering?

Well if you're going to put it that way then I prefer "linear" social links to whatever Rise's link was.

PK Gaming said:
Except it's pretty much exactly what you said? And she doesn't spend the entire link throwing out introspective rants; she genuinely reacts to the circumstances that her presented to her. Like when those guys talk about Rise is old news, and Kanawhatever is the new hotness. Or when her manager tries to manipulate her emotions? The only deep we're given significant introspection is when Rise ultimately comes to conclusion on her own in the 9th rank of her social link. Which is important because she came to that decision on her own. NOT because of the protagonist's help. NOT because her manager manipulated her, but because it's something she genuinely wants to do. In that regard, her s.link comes across as less of a wish fulfillment; You're supportive and friendly, but you're not the reason why she decided to get back in the idol business.
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You think a lack of involvement makes it a good social link? One of the reasons why Dojima's link was so good was because of your involvement. You were his moral compass, you called him out on shit that he didn't want to hear. Call it cliche but in a story where the theme is facing truth and your interactions with others, you being the catalyst to that change is crucial.

As far as Rise's link being wish fulfillment, it's not because of you being her prince charming, solving all her problems. It's like you're her diary for no reason. She has moments even before rank 9 where you're on the hill just listening to whatever her current declaration in life is. She's perfect. Your famous, idol girlfriend is so down-to-earth, smart and perfect. Most characters don't get to this point until the last scene.


PK Gaming said:
No it's not. The pressures of being an idol were to much for her, which caused her to quit, but she eventually realizes that she had a passion for idol. It's a textbook example of "you never appreciate something until it's gone." People aren't machines; we don't follow some strict path in life. It's completely natural to be "all over the place" in the regard.
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heh, I can't argue if someone says "People aren't machines" regarding written characterization flaws. But I'll say this much, I don't know why people hate the added band scene so much from Golden because that's actually where Rise's best characterization comes from.
The way she accepts Yosuke's pleas despite it being something she would never want to do. Her confidence in herself and her friends putting up a great show. When everyone is nervous she gets the group together and imparts her own experiences in dealing with stage fright. It was better than anything in her BS social link.
 
S

Squire

Banned
Sophia said:
Anime licensees don't want an English release comprising sales for the Japanese version. Which is why we're getting a pricy Aniplex version instead of something more reasonable. Plus dubs take time.
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Dubbing anime is usually a rush job, actually.
 
S

Sophia

Member
Inorigo said:
Dubbing anime is usually a rush job, actually.
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Getting the license for dubbing, announcing, and releasing it can take time, tho. Plus not all dubs are a rush job.

Guess Who said:
Replacing Troy Baker as Kanji halfway through the P4:TA dub because they couldn't work around his schedule means I will never spend a dime on the English releases.
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Still surprised they did this rather than just wait on releasing the second half. I imagine it's not entirely Sentai's fault however.

Nothing to do with Matthew Mercer either, who is a very good actor.
 
D

DryEyeRelief

Member
Acid08 said:
Well said here, PK.

This isn't the first time someone has compared Yosuke's treatment of Kanji to Rise's and I just don't see it. The game NEVER portrays Yosuke as helping out Kanji like Rise does. He just says dumb shit to Kanji for the entire game.
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Well I guess I did miss something. I recall Yosuke poking fun at Kanji for how he feels about Naoto but I don't see him getting points for being a wingman.
 
J

jello44

Chie is the worst waifu
Angry Grimace said:
Yeah, I seem to recall that there were a couple points where Rise and Kanji were just kind of there together without explanation, which would make it really weird to suggest they had an antagonistic relationship.
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I know it was never hinted at, but maybe at one point they were friends as young kids? Their shops were so close so they had to have at least met then.

I dunno, I'm speculating.
 
S

Squire

Banned
Sophia said:
Getting the license for dubbing, announcing, and releasing it can take time, tho. Plus not all dubs are a rush job.

Nothing to do with Matthew Mercer either, who is a very good actor.
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kewlmyc said:
She means to release.
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Right. Most recording sessions are though, now more than ever. Not that it's worth getting upset over. 9/10 licenses are schlock to keep the business going, anyway.
 
H

hipsterpants

Member
As a game as ambition in scope as P4 and having the entire game based around your perspective there's obviously going to be different opinions views on how characters react with each other. If P4 explored other scenes with characters when you weren't there I think their interactions and closeness with each other would be a lot more clear. But to do that would take a ridiculous amount of extra time and effort so that part doesn't bug me. I think its just one of the flaws of the game that you can't really complain about (even though I obviously have lol) because its just there and would be very hard to fix.
 
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