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Persona Community Thread |OT5| Pull up a chair! [NO PQ OR P4U SPOILERS!]
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Green Mamba
Member
Yu doesn't "want" anything because he's not a character in that sense in P4. Let's not retroactively read in a personality that doesn't exist.I'm considering it from both perspectives. And Yu doesn't want to bone them. I don't think he wants the old lady either
SloaneRisette
Member
Tell me how you really feel
I basically agree with my man PK here, but I just want to say that generally speaking most of their s.link story paths are kind of mediocre in my opinion because of the way they have to be structured due to gameplay concerns, possibility of beginning/levelling up at any time, and their overall lack of connection to the overall story. Like, they ALL have dumb coincidences in them because you have to be able to do them at any time, they ALL don't interact with the story very much because there's no real way to account for being at a certain s.link level (or even relationship status) without creating a tonne of baroque content, etc, etc. It's not just Rise who runs into people she knows randomly (though she probably is the most egregious since they're largerly out-of-towners... but even then it's contextually appropriate for the most part).
It's also why I think some of the nighttime convos are hella the best.
It's also why I think some of the nighttime convos are hella the best.
CrazyTank940
Member
snrk
DryEyeRelief
Member
Her premise is pretty shameless. The entire concept is a beautiful celebrity who drops everything, moves to the same town as you and only has eyes for you (for whatever reason). Maybe pander bait isn't the best way of putting it, but that's blatant wish fulfillment. I think everyone could name a celebrity who we wish would be our "Rise."
She's the boldest character of the IT and handles mature issues but I wouldn't call her mature. The mature characters of the cast are Naoto and surprisingly, Kanji. She's often egocentric and bratty. Even during her link if you answer in certain ways.
Maybe I'm missing something but I never understood people loving the Rise Kanji relationship. I mean even,
in Emperor rank 10 Kanji name drops Rise as one of the people who gave him a hard time about his hobby.
Rise's social link is weak. She's the only one I can think of who retreads her development. She comes to the conclusion at the end of her link that there are many facets of "her" and that her "Risette" persona shouldn't be shunned...however that's a conclusion she came to after you save her from her dungeon and defeat her shadow. I guess she forgot?
It's the result of there not being much material to work with, regarding her identity crisis. Also structuring the entire link as the P4MC being the only one who sees her, feeds into that whole wish fulfillment. If the link were more about elaborating on why she used to love being an idol, and the struggle of drawing the line between her true self and her manufactured personality, that would have fared better. Instead, it's a large bunch of stagnant introspective rants, all for the P4MC to listen to, because he's special. Her manager tells her off, she starts crying, you comfort her, and that's how you fall in love. Awesome.
IIRC, she said in the beginning that she never wanted to be famous and later went with being an idol to fix her former life as a social misfit. But she gained what she actually wanted in her current life in Inaba. It's why the later decision to jump back to being an idol feels like such an undercutting of what she said before. Overall her development is all over the place.
It's the result of there not being much material to work with, regarding her identity crisis. Also structuring the entire link as the P4MC being the only one who sees her, feeds into that whole wish fulfillment. If the link were more about elaborating on why she used to love being an idol, and the struggle of drawing the line between her true self and her manufactured personality, that would have fared better. Instead, it's a large bunch of stagnant introspective rants, all for the P4MC to listen to, because he's special. Her manager tells her off, she starts crying, you comfort her, and that's how you fall in love. Awesome.
IIRC, she said in the beginning that she never wanted to be famous and later went with being an idol to fix her former life as a social misfit. But she gained what she actually wanted in her current life in Inaba. It's why the later decision to jump back to being an idol feels like such an undercutting of what she said before. Overall her development is all over the place.
They are aren't they. Those conversations feels so well integrated and relevant to what's happening at the time. I can't really imagine the game without them.
To be fair, pretty much all the party member social links have this problem to an extent - all their links involve coming to terms with the same issues they supposedly already faced when they fought their Shadows.
Also lol at complaining about
a wish fulfillment character in a game where the entire thing is wish fulfillment! You're a perfect handsome hunk of man that can kill gods, have a harem, and still have time to get perfect test scores, and Rise is a problem?
Different interpretations, I guess. This isn't how I see Rise though.
Also, people just love to picture any relationship between any of the characters. Like I've said before, realistically, none of them would likely date anyone else within the group outside of maybe Narukami. The chemistry between them all is distinctly friendly.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Im with PK in this matter, and I dont think Naoto's social link is that mature, in fact, is surprisingly one of the most childish (did the friendly one, maybe the love one is better).
Kanji on the other hand yes, he has a much better social link in that aspect.
Kanji on the other hand yes, he has a much better social link in that aspect.
Sometimes I get the feeling Chie would have a really awkward one night stand with Yosuke and they'd never bring it up again. But otherwise, outside of Yu, I don't actually see most of the IT dating one another.
Except perhaps Naoto and Kanji. The game brute forces that.
Still sorta surprised that Akihiko and Mitsuru aren't an item, though. Those two have enough chemistry to teach a gosh darn class.
I can picture the bolded, haha.
I don't see Naoto with Kanji at all though. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
The one with Tomoe, right
buddha0991
Member
This is why I love P1 and 2's (to a lesser extend P3) character development over 4 even though 4 is my favorite cast after the 2 duology. Their development felt way more natural since it wasn't in a bubble. (I know people will say P1? Development? PEESHAW) Character development in 2 especially felt natural and organic, and not forced.
My two cents:
There's a huge difference between making a life-changing decision and self-actualizing. Persona is far more about the latter than the former. Jung's theories of coming to grips with your own shadows are not purely about rejecting them in order to become something new: It's about learning to be ok with who you are. While that may seem trite and after-school special-y, it's really something we all must deal with at some point or another.
For P4, it's about removing yourself from the way society defines how you are and seeing yourself how you define yourself. If you'll notice, most party social links follow the same pattern. The person wants to change after acknowledging their shadow but after being confronted with some external, antagonistic force, they realize that they need to embrace the positive aspects of the shadow rather than trying to extinguish it entirely. They finally return to the situation having found their own reason, rather than a societal reason, to continue living the way they have.
Society roles are a much bigger topic of discussion in Japan than they are here, and I really have to commend the localization team to wording everything in a way that really works in our cultural context. That being said, I think some of it doesn't carry across and it can seem kind of reductive for social links to end where they started. It's more that the characters are discovering why they do the things they do rather than changing the things they do.
There's a huge difference between making a life-changing decision and self-actualizing. Persona is far more about the latter than the former. Jung's theories of coming to grips with your own shadows are not purely about rejecting them in order to become something new: It's about learning to be ok with who you are. While that may seem trite and after-school special-y, it's really something we all must deal with at some point or another.
For P4, it's about removing yourself from the way society defines how you are and seeing yourself how you define yourself. If you'll notice, most party social links follow the same pattern. The person wants to change after acknowledging their shadow but after being confronted with some external, antagonistic force, they realize that they need to embrace the positive aspects of the shadow rather than trying to extinguish it entirely. They finally return to the situation having found their own reason, rather than a societal reason, to continue living the way they have.
Society roles are a much bigger topic of discussion in Japan than they are here, and I really have to commend the localization team to wording everything in a way that really works in our cultural context. That being said, I think some of it doesn't carry across and it can seem kind of reductive for social links to end where they started. It's more that the characters are discovering why they do the things they do rather than changing the things they do.
There are days when I wonder if my "talents" would not be best suited to writing doujins of this nature.
I dunno if Kanji and Naoto ever would hook up but boy do the writers love to tease it!
buddha0991
Member
lets plays exist! also playthroughs!
LelouchViBritannia
Member
I always assumed it was
Narukami and Yukiko or Rise
Chie and Yosuke
Naoto and Kanji
Teddie and his right hand.
I still owe you big time for that stream back in the summer.
I won't deny that this is a deterrent from wanting to replay these games. P1's problem could be eased with adding NG+, and P2IS I'd like more if it wasn't confirmapalooza.
I went and chose to use a Fusion spell from the fusion spell menu, why are you now asking me yet again if I want to use a fusion spell? If you could remove the unnecessary menu clutter IS would be a much better game.
No, not at all. According to the design works, the concept for her character was a cute but emotionally complex idol. And I wouldn't call it wish fulfillment, considering Rise spends the majority of Persona 4 as a regular person. Her social link even lampshades this. At one point, Rise questions if you're hanging out with her because she was Risette (and you get the most points when you say no). Trying to suggest that she is one is just an incredibly cynical view on her character. The thing is, Rise is a person first and an idol second, not the other way around. The effect that her idol days had on her shows through in everything she does: her personality, her motivations, her actions, her social link and even her understanding of other people. She's defined by it, but she's not some glamorous accessory for the player (Well, unless you're Yosuke, who spends most of the game gushing over how she's a super kawaii desu idol but that's because he's a tactless idiot).
She's pretty damn mature. Her silliness belies a person who actually has a deep understanding of other people (which ties back to her scanning/mission control concept) and generally strives to make people happy. Her social link has her resolving to become an idol again, even despite the countless hardship and struggles she endured, because she could put a smile on faceless fan's face. Naoto is not mature; she puts on a persona of being an adult, but she's insecure and definitely has the wrong ideas about maturity. Her arc deals with slowing coming to grips with that.
You have a fundamental lack of understanding of their relationship then. P4(G) makes it clear that Rise and Kanji are actually really close. She constantly tries to make Kanji feel better, usually by constantly dropping by his house (much to his annoyance) or by simply hanging out with him at school.Yes, she was insensitive to Kanji, at first, but she makes up for it by praising his skills and requesting some dolls. (which directly resulted in raising Kanji's confidence) She even helps him out with Naoto during the ski trip event. She's the only other IT character we see interacting with Kanji during his social link, and they're scene hanging out during other social links/free time events (such as Marie, or the group shopping dating) The Rise/Kanji relationship is one of the most genuine friendships in the game. Sure they argue and call each other names, and Rise overextends herself (like telling Naoto that Kanji has a crush on her... sheesh) but they also care about each other. The game outright spells it out for you in NPC dialogue, where some of students wonder if they're dating.
Excuse me? All of the IT social link's are retreads, the difference is, you're getting the full version instead of a cliff-notes version of her development. That's a problem native to P4's IT members, but that's not really in dispute here. Her social link operates on the concept of "show, don't tell" so we fully understand her motivations for all of her actions. Her social link was pretty enjoyable, since it didn't immediately follow a linear path (you spend quite a bit of time just "hanging" out with Rise in a natural fashion, and, at first she's fine with being a regular person).
???
Except it's pretty much exactly what you said? And she doesn't spend the entire link throwing out introspective rants; she genuinely reacts to the circumstances that her presented to her. Like when those guys talk about Rise is old news, and Kanawhatever is the new hotness. Or when her manager tries to manipulate her emotions? The only deep we're given significant introspection is when Rise ultimately comes to conclusion on her own in the 9th rank of her social link. Which is important because she came to that decision on her own. NOT because of the protagonist's help. NOT because her manager who manipulated her emotions like a bastard, but because it's something she genuinely wants to do. In that regard, her s.link comes across as less of a wish fulfillment; You're supportive and friendly, but you're not the reason why she decided to get back in the idol business.
I will concede that the romance aspect of her social link is clumsy and unwieldy. (Which isn't unique to her s.link btw. Most of the romance links are mediocre, outside of Ai Ebihara's)
No it's not. The pressures of being an idol were to much for her, which caused her to quit, but she eventually realizes that she had a passion for idol. It's a textbook example of "you never appreciate something until it's gone." People aren't machines; we don't follow some strict path in life. It's completely natural to be "all over the place" when it comes to deciding your future.
TL;DR Rise is a fantastic character, and she can definitely stand on his own two feet. Her entire character arc is about determining her own path in life. To simply call it ‘wish fulfillment’ altogether displays a misunderstanding of her character history, her personality, her development and the developer's intentions.
I hope this cleared things up.
Naoto and Kanji makes no sense to me at all, personally. Naoto is completely oblivious to his affectations and seemingly feels nothing romantic towards him.
DryEyeRelief
Member
That's simplifying things. All the links aren't even structured the same. The better social links of the game with the IT use the happenings of their dungeon as an immediate backdrop to what their actions are in the social link from the start. Yukiko's problem in her dungeon was owning up to her hatred of her family obligations. She starts her link embracing that hatred instead of hiding it and finally overcomes it by the end of her link. Her position in life is same, but her mentality is completely changed. Kanji goes from someone who would characterize himself as a delinquent to hide from people, to someone wanting to reform because he sees the consequences of his of actions. By the end he is able to express himself to people despite his embarrassment, learning what true strength really is. It's Point A to Point B to Point C.
Rise is different in that she regresses in mentality, and then progresses to the same spot to give the illusion of character growth.
Rise is different in that she regresses in mentality, and then progresses to the same spot to give the illusion of character growth.
Yes exactly. What you describe is the problem. Rise a lot of times seems like just an extension of P4MC being a Gary Stu. The other characters adhere to your good traits, but they still exist within their own vacuums. Chie saying she can trust you, or Yosuke saying he rather you be leader is less pandering than everything Rise is made out to be.
buddha0991
Member
I think I am going to do this again soon but actually record it this time!
JoseOle5990
Member
My point is that it's not a "problem" - the wish fulfillment aspects of Persona exist as a very deliberate design choice, not a flaw. You may not like it, but that's a matter of personal taste. If you have a beef with characters and stories written to make the protagonist out to be superman, Persona 3 and 4 are not written for you.
And even then, I still don't believe that Rise is as shallow as she's being painted out to be.
hipsterpants
Member
Lol, I just didn't find Rise to be a very interesting character while other people definitely did. I guess I understand her more now, and apparently didn't pick up on literally any of the subleties any of you guys mentioned.
I can agree partially on the premise that
Rise's end to her character growth felt like it has quite a few similarities to her realization with her shadow.
Her dungeon realization was more along the lines that all her masks were apart of her. She acknowledged they were all her, but she still acted as though they were all separate entities within herself. So, she went on to try to find as mask for herself that she would be happy with for her days. A mask she could run away from her old masks to. Her shadow made her acknowledge the existence of those masks she lived with, but they didn't solve the underlying problem of her trying to run away from them. Her social link, through its development, found her reconciling those different masks as a part of one identity. One that she could not run away from or be ashamed of.
As for the rest of her "problems" described... I would disagree but I don't care to get into that long of a discussion.
I actually was pretty neutral on Rise on my first play through and just thought she was an ok character. On my second time through I definitely realized how much her writing shined and how much I liked the voice over work on her.
My favorite parts of P4 are when the writing gets dangerously close to a big ol' anime trope and then veers off into much warmer and more relatable writing. Half of it is the original writers and the other half of it is the localization team who did a fantastic job of knowing their audience and writing some really down-to-earth dialogue.
These games aren't perfect. They're still catering to certain audiences. I just think that sometimes you could tell the writers went a little out of their way to put some thought and heart into smaller details, and the games stand out because of it.
My favorite parts of P4 are when the writing gets dangerously close to a big ol' anime trope and then veers off into much warmer and more relatable writing. Half of it is the original writers and the other half of it is the localization team who did a fantastic job of knowing their audience and writing some really down-to-earth dialogue.
These games aren't perfect. They're still catering to certain audiences. I just think that sometimes you could tell the writers went a little out of their way to put some thought and heart into smaller details, and the games stand out because of it.
One thing I really like about Persona 2, Persona 3, and Persona 4 in contrast to most RPGs is there are a lot of subtle details you can miss. The Official Design Works for the later two games points many of them out, including having actual analyst of their behaviors in the P3 one. It's a really nice touch, and makes replays fun. So many hidden dialogues and little details all over the place.
JoseOle5990
Member
lol it still makes me do a double take
Wow I never even thought about this. Imagine the salt. PersonaGAF would be a madhouse.
At least they're not waiting months before release to announce P5... With how much of trolls Atlus can be, I'm almost surprised they don't.
LelouchViBritannia
Member
True. I guess Atlus just threw them together due to them both having sexuality issues.
Well, that, and it's easy to see how an androgynous person might be Kanji's type (though not the other way around).
LelouchViBritannia
Member
Yh definitely
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
I guess so. They didn't dub the Persona 3 movie which sucks because I want to focus on the action.
It is expensive so, I'll have to read.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
The Marie hate makes me sadder.
buddha0991
Member
Well said here, PK.
This isn't the first time someone has compared Yosuke's treatment of Kanji to Rise's and I just don't see it. The game NEVER portrays Yosuke as helping out Kanji like Rise does. He just says dumb shit to Kanji for the entire game.
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