I like your thinking. I like it a lot.
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Persona Community Thread |OT5| Pull up a chair! [NO PQ OR P4U SPOILERS!]
- Thread starter Dantis
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I like your thinking. I like it a lot.
You won't. EP improves on the battle UI, but it's just as flawed as P2:IS. In fact, I'd argue that it's even more flawed, due to the antiquated voice acting, the so-so translation, the terrible dungeons and the fact that you can't coast through the game with your initial Personas. You have to constantly summon stronger Personas (and since there's no guide that makes playing the game less painful, it's really tedious) To that end, you should probably just read a LP of EP or something. If IS is giving you pause, I guarantee EP will be the worse experience.
Believe it or not, that is the case. Yu can use bats, fishing poles, shovels, golf clubs, and a lightsaber.
SloaneRisette
Member
SMT 5 Wii U
John Hardin's heel turn
John Hardin's heel turn
buddha0991
Member
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
how?
leofficialshniz
Neo Member
Nailguns, eh? Persona 6: Highschool of the Persona. This spectacular crossover comes complete with inexplicable fanservice shots of Mara. Everywhere. This could go places.
Places I don't want to go.
Hold up, really? Dang, I gotta look for these on my next playthrough. I found it pretty hilarious that in P1 the game gives you a mop.
For what it is worth, it's possible I'm just burning out on Persona at the moment. I played the entire Final Fantasy franchise up to FF9 awhile back and I couldn't handle FF9 because holy fuck why do I have to sit here and watch twenty minutes of battle animations while my ATB fills at the speed of dial-up AOL.
Although the PSX era was indeed a great time for JRPGs, I find that upon revisiting many of them, they are not nearly so polished as I recall. In truth I feel much of the PSX era's library is more deserving of remakes than the PS2 or SNES eras, because a little extra overhaul of so many JRPGs from that era would make for some truly stellar games.
I also know that part of the disconnect is that I, personally, do not find as much pleasure in old-school games as I used to. After realizing how many JRPGs require no more than mashing A to get through a fight, I actually really enjoyed that P4 and SMT4 made me pay more attention to battles. P1 and P2 actually really aren't that way, though. P1 only required I pay attention when engaging angels, but otherwise combat in both is very much not an engaging process for me in the way it is in other games in this series.
I would actually go so far as to say that I think that P3P and SMT4 have had the best MegaTen combat for me so far, and between the two I'd give P3P the more respect. In P3P there are weapon and element types to factor in and a good assortment of them, but I don't have to deal with party AI if I don't want to, and there is a pretty good assortment of foes with variant weaknesses. In SMT4 there is never a dull moment because
A problem I have with every MegaTen game I've played so far, and perhaps this isn't a problem so much as something I don't like, though, is that whole "Shadows have weaknesses but none of them ever make sense so guess until you get it right!" thing. Weakness plays a HUGE role in combat in every MegaTen game I've played, whether it be to quickly clean shit up like in P1 and P2, to get free turns like in P3 and P4, or to do that whole Smirk/Press Turn thing in SMT4, knowing enemy weaknesses and covering your own ass are a big deal. But not having a way of knowing is such a huge pain in the ass. Obviously Rise is a game breaker, but I think the way P3 goes about it is fairly even. Scanning foes to figure out their weakness is a good, happy middle for me. Cuz like, most of the time in FF if a blob is red you know his weakness already. (This is admittedly less obvious to me in DQ).
But anyway, I'm kinda ranting again, and I hate doing that, because it gives the impression that I dislike playing P2 more than I really do. I just wish the game were more fluid.
This is some brutally honest critique, haha.
It's not like I want to trash on Persona 2, but... it's not like I have any other choice either. I want to love Persona 2, I really do, but terrible game design is the one thing I cannot forgive. To me, trying to downplay it's gameplay faults is not an option; I can't lie to myself or to others.
It's a quest item. You'll need to buy the sword called "Triumph" from Daidara, and trade it with one of the students at Yaso. He's on the 2nd floor of the practice building IIRC.
hipsterpants
Member
Welp, I'm totally going to start playing through FES again once I get past this awful Calc III final. It's been like 2 years and I still need to atone for my criminal under use of Da Man in my original playthrough.
I take it you haven't tried Devil Survivor? They just cut the bullshit and give you all the resistances automatically without guessing or scanning, plus enemy skills, neatly laid out on the top screen.
Also yeah some PS1 RPGs can be a real chore to play due to high random encounters, slow battle or movement speed, combined with mindless battles that are too easy, among other things (plus I like the better presentation and voice acting in RPGs past PS1). They might have held up back then, but I'm not sure how many I'd consider great now. Which is why I prefer playing RPGs from PS2 and up.
I take it you haven't tried Devil Survivor? They just cut the bullshit and give you all the resistances automatically without guessing or scanning, plus enemy skills, neatly laid out on the top screen.
Also yeah some PS1 RPGs can be a real chore to play due to high random encounters, slow battle or movement speed, combined with mindless battles that are too easy, among other things (plus I like the better presentation and voice acting in RPGs past PS1). They might have held up back then, but I'm not sure how many I'd consider great now. Which is why I prefer playing RPGs from PS2 and up.
I have not yet played Devil Survivor, no. P2IS is my 5th MegaTen game.
SloaneRisette
Member
...Just got mental images
DOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANT
SatelliteOfLove
Member
To me, they're the anti-Tales of Graces f; everything NOT involved in character building and combat is superb.
I take it you haven't tried Devil Survivor? They just cut the bullshit and give you all the resistances automatically without guessing or scanning, plus enemy skills, neatly laid out on the top screen.
Also yeah some PS1 RPGs can be a real chore to play due to high random encounters, slow battle or movement speed, combined with mindless battles that are too easy, among other things (plus I like the better presentation and voice acting in RPGs past PS1). They might have held up back then, but I'm not sure how many I'd consider great now. Which is why I prefer playing RPGs from PS2 and up.
This is why Soul Hackers is so damn good; you can tell they were headed to their PS2 offerings from that. Swifter and with far less steps involved.
Yeah I thought SH (3DS) held up very well.
For sure. SH was incredibly fun, and if P2 played like it, I'd have had zero issues.
So i'm 1 month into the original P4 and I figured I should highlight the differences between Golden and the vanilla version. (There are more than you'd expect).
Changes are tentative!
I omitted some of the more well known changes.
Note: After knocking an enemy down, Yosuke says: Alright, one for all and one for all. I'm absolutely positive he doesn't say this in Golden; were some of the All out Attack voice clips changed?
EDIT: Thanks Sophia!
Changes are tentative!
Code:
+ = Golden addition
- = Vanilla exclusive
+/- = Changed between versions
+Added meet up with Marie at the beginning of the game
+Added extra dialogue with Dojima asking you if you're ok (dialogue prompt)
+Added walk sequence where you get to explore Inaba (The shopping district is introduced)
+Saki and her brother can be seen fighting in the central shopping district
+Saving no longer boots you out of the save menu
+You can now load your game from the pause menu
+Added night time events
+You can hear yourself walking up / down the stairs at the Dojima residence now
+You can check the calendar in your room
+Dying no longer boots you to the title screen
+Aika is now referenced while eating at Aiya's
+HD sprites
+You can set skills during fusion
+Added a fastforward option to skip through scenes
+Added fusion search
+The game now tells you the amount of times needed to finish a book beforehand
-Chie is voiced by Tracey Rooney
-Teddie is voiced by Dave Wittenberg
-You can "skim" through books or read through them thoroughly(???)
-The TVz that leads into the real world are red and have pink screens
-In the save menu, Saturday & Sunday are "colored" blue and red respectively
-Shadows that appear in dungeon overworld come in 2 variants; flying and grounded. P4G only uses the grounded variant
-There's a save point in front of the boss
+/- The burning beetle reflects physical instead of simply resisting it (not 100% sure)
+/- Shuffle time is completely different in both versions
+/- Pop quiz questions are completely different!
+/-Grounded shadows have a different design in P4G (they now wear masks)
+/- Nanako's "hmmm" voice clip is different. In P4G, it's a long "Hmmmmm" whereas in P4, it's a short "Hm."
+/- Value medicine heals 100HP in P4G (up from 50HP)
+/- The heat balance enemy is weak to wind and lightning skills in Golden. In the original P4, it lacked weaknesses.
+/- Golden hands are more common in P4G. They now give out a ton of EXP
+/- They changed some of Margeret's lines during her boss battle. All of her "new" lines were voiced by Karen Strassmen[
+/-Shadow Chie now resists physical and has more health
+/-Shadow Yukiko is now weak to Bufu, and responds being hit by it by casting White Wall
+/-The Charming Prince in the Shadow Yukiko fight is now weak to electricity, rather than Ice.
+/-Shadow Kanji's two flunkies now have weaknesses. Nice Guy is weak to ice, and Tough Guy is weak to Fire.
+/-The optional boss Margaret now gets two turns in a row. The bosses's skills have been renamed too. Narukami is now Jihad. Divine Wind is now Divine Vacuum. Meltdown is now Prominence.
+/-The mechanics of The Reaper have been changed. You can now encounter him on a first playthrough, and his presence in a chest is indicated by rattling chains.I omitted some of the more well known changes.
Note: After knocking an enemy down, Yosuke says: Alright, one for all and one for all. I'm absolutely positive he doesn't say this in Golden; were some of the All out Attack voice clips changed?
EDIT: Thanks Sophia!
I will give P2 that if I was going to bother with Demon Negotiation, it appears to be much easier than it was in P1. For instance you're not saddled with shit negotiators like Reiji who 3/4 of his options 9/10 of the time result in the demon getting angrier. Everybody seems to have one option that makes the demon eager.
I think I can also relate that while I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE Demon Negotiation as a gameplay mechanic, especially as a forced one in P2, I do like that it gives a strange sort of way to get to know the characters and see them do goofy things in battle, like imitate engines and discuss manliness. If demon reactions weren't randomized bullshit, or if this mechanic wasn't central to character growth, or if this entire thing were utilized in some better way in some better part of the game, I could see myself finding it appealing instead of the terrible shit that stains nigh every MegaTen game.
I think I can also relate that while I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE Demon Negotiation as a gameplay mechanic, especially as a forced one in P2, I do like that it gives a strange sort of way to get to know the characters and see them do goofy things in battle, like imitate engines and discuss manliness. If demon reactions weren't randomized bullshit, or if this mechanic wasn't central to character growth, or if this entire thing were utilized in some better way in some better part of the game, I could see myself finding it appealing instead of the terrible shit that stains nigh every MegaTen game.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
lol how else would you gain demons in a mainline SMT game? Pokeballs?
Wait, so there is no golden shadows in original P4? I'm sad that I can't make easy money now (besides part time jobs).
I accidentally skimmed through a book in P4, so does that limit the amount of stats I'll get from the book? I tried to read the book again but it says I've finished it...
SloaneRisette
Member
Not even gonna say what I read that as
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyways
I believe skimming through the book does limit the chance at big stat gains, but takes a shorter amount of time, but reading thoroughly has a chance at big stat gains, but takes longer
Don't quote me on that though!
Through something that was fun, reliable and well designed, I would hope, instead of this repulsive game mechanic people subject themselves to. Demon Negotiation is bad, and SMT games are worse because of it.
buddha0991
Member
Corvo, you are a good person, but PLS.
Some other changes for your list PK, mostly boss battle related:
- Shadow Chie now resists physical and has more health
- Shadow Yukiko is now weak to Bufu, and responds being hit by it by casting White Wall
- The Charming Prince in the Shadow Yukiko fight is now weak to electricity, rather than Ice.
- Shadow Kanji's two flunkies now have weaknesses. Nice Guy is weak to ice, and Tough Guy is weak to Fire.
- The optional boss
now gets two turns in a row. The bosses's skills have been renamed too. Narukami is now Jihad. Divine Wind is now Divine Vacuum. Meltdown is now Prominence.Margaret
- The mechanics of The Reaper have been changed. You can now encounter him on a first playthrough, and his presence in a chest is indicated by rattling chains.
Yes I like to take online classes to help me at video games. That is the very definition of fun.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
I absolutely disagree. If you are talking about Persona sure, but for something like Nocturne you ARE absolutely wrong.
You can still master them yourself like, you know, video game mechanics. Better than something entirely random that you have no control at all over.
Corvo, are you using a guide for Demon Negotiation? Or are you collecting the cards by trial and error?
If you don't have a guide, I suggest you to use this. It saved me a lot of time playing P2:IS.
Or I could play a video game and have fun!
Yes, negotiation in Persona isn't too good, but in some of the other games in the series, they're great, and add a lot of character.
You don't even need to switch Personas in IS if you don't want to deal with it, and EP cut down on so much of the options so a guide isn't needed there either.
Yes, which you have when you do something you can control!
buddha0991
Member
but-eh..not gonna bother.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
I'm not sure where you got "not reliable/well designed" from. You have to explain to me how demon negotiation in Nocturne isn't reliable or well designed.
SloaneRisette
Member
???
Negotiation in Persona 1 and Persona 2 are vastly different to how they're handled in mainline SMT games. Also while negotiations in Persona 2 are tedious, they are anything but complex.
Oh come on. I'm just razzing here, and I want the record to show that I did try to say nice things about demon negotiation, even if I don't like it or the way it is implemented. I don't even know what random thingamabob R is talkin' about, but I'm certain he has a point.
SloaneRisette
Member
Man we got Option Selects like we playing Marvel
They don't feel much different from how it was handled in SMT4, which is the only point of reference I have. Granted in SMT4 I feel like demon responses were fairly uniform compared to in P1 and P2, so I guess there's that.
I'd have to play it first. I suppose I should clarify "stains the MegaTen games I have played and discourages me from playing other ones" but let's not assume I'm really out to diss games I haven't ever played, guys.
EDIT: I get the feeling I've ruffled some feathers so let me amend my statements to just what I've said above: I don't enjoy demon negotiation in the MegaTen games I have played and it discourages me from seeking other MegaTen games to play. I don't find it particularly good or reliable. I apologize for statements which have caused confusion or tension up to this point.
I just don't see how you can say they discourage you due to "unreliability" yet don't say it to the system that is even more unreliable in every single regard.
They're very different. Persona 1 and Persona 2 have the emotions element, and actions picked stay consistent unless a random dialogue prompt changes it for that battle. If one action provokes the reaction you want, it will always provoke that reaction. You can see this in the guide that Arue linked, which shows specific reactions that always provoke joy.
In contrast, the mainline SMT system doesn't use emotions, and is more like a standard dialogue wheel. While each demon has specific personality traits in regards to what they like and don't like, actions are not always consistent, and doing the same thing will not always produce the same results. SMT4 in particular is especially tricky, thanks to the wide variety of demons and conversations they have. I know one big mistake that beginners in SMT4 make is giving in to every demon's demand, when a lot of demon's actually prefer it if you know when to not give in and end the conversation.
I actually prefer the standard SMT negotiation system over the one used in Persona 1/2. While it wasn't too bad in Persona 1 when successful conversations got you a Spell/Persona card every time, it became downright annoying in Persona 2 when you had to provoke the same reaction several times just to get one Persona.
buddha0991
Member
Well, I think the way Corvo acts towards demon negotiation is just bad, but if you are talking about Shuffle Time, I can get what I want almost every single time in that...but then again, I am good at getting what I want in demon negotiation too, SOOOO...
I don't think I really understand what system it is you're directing this at? Like, Persona 3 and 4 don't really have anything comparable to Demon Negotiation. They have Shuffle time, but I mean, at least in P and G Shuffle Time is pretty painless compared to Negotiation. There's Fusion, but I didn't even really bother with it in P4G until I did Margret's Social Link, and I never really worried about randomly assorted skills for Fusions in P3P.
Could you explain in a bit more detail for me, because I'm sort of not understanding what you mean, and I feel like I cannot properly answer like that.
JoseOle5990
Member
I don't know much about demon negotiations, but I do know that this is very nice. Good jobu.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
If we really want to talk about something unfun, not reliable and not well designed, we could talk about P3 and P4's dungeons.
What didn't you like about the SMT IV system? It's waaaaayyy better than the randomly generated grindy non sense that P3/P4 gives you. It's not that bad in Persona because the games don't have fully customizable parties and you hardly need to fuse in P4(black frost nukes the game and I used Orpheus up until
for P3P) but that kind of non sense in a game with 400 demons? LOL.(I'm assuming you don't find the random persona mechanic in P3/P4 unfun, unreliable and not well designed)
edit: It sounds like you are complaining about SMT demon negotiation not being easy/casual?
What didn't you like about the SMT IV system? It's waaaaayyy better than the randomly generated grindy non sense that P3/P4 gives you. It's not that bad in Persona because the games don't have fully customizable parties and you hardly need to fuse in P4(black frost nukes the game and I used Orpheus up until
hanged man
edit: It sounds like you are complaining about SMT demon negotiation not being easy/casual?
The thing is, just getting Shuffle Time to happen is a gamble for the most part, and having what you want to appear in it is another thing. And that's if you manage to get it when it does happen.
Although I just started playing P4G, and they actually added some control to it, so it fells much better than how it was before. Still not as good as negotiations, but much better than P3 or vanilla P4.
Mostly talking about the randomness of Shuffle Time, especially in games that aren't P4G. The games being easy enough that fusion isn't needed, or may even be detrimental due to the growth rate and how your stats tie to a Persona is another thing, since I saw you complaining about IS, and that doesn't really need fusions either.
I've never been too keen on demon negotiation myself, but at least in games like SH or SMTIV, you could get by through with fusion alone (and some negotiation here and there)
That luxury simply does not exist in P1/P2, and I could see why Corvo would be averse to demon negotiation after playing those games.
That luxury simply does not exist in P1/P2, and I could see why Corvo would be averse to demon negotiation after playing those games.
This isn't true, actually. Shuffle Time can be invoked reliably by preforming an All-Out Attack to end the battle, and what appears in Shuffle Time is based off what enemies you fight (in Persona 4) or what section of Tartarus you're in (in Persona 3.)
Likewise, all the minigames have specific rules for them that makes getting a Persona fairly reliable every time. In this sense, P4G's system is more unreliable than the one present in vanilla Persona 4. Or any version of Persona 3.
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