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[CorvoSol]

They're very different. Persona 1 and Persona 2 have the emotions element, and actions picked stay consistent unless a random dialogue prompt changes it for that battle. If one action provokes the reaction you want, it will always provoke that reaction. You can see this in the guide that Arue linked, which shows specific reactions that always provoke joy.

In contrast, the mainline SMT system doesn't use emotions, and is more like a standard dialogue wheel. While each demon has specific personality traits in regards to what they like and don't like, actions are not always consistent, and doing the same thing will not always produce the same results. SMT4 in particular is especially tricky, thanks to the wide variety of demons and conversations they have. I know one big mistake that beginners in SMT4 make is giving in to every demon's demand, when a lot of demon's actually prefer it if you know when to not give in and end the conversation.

I actually prefer the standard SMT negotiation system over the one used in Persona 1/2. While it wasn't too bad in Persona 1 when successful conversations got you a Spell/Persona card every time, it became downright annoying in Persona 2 when you had to provoke the same reaction several times just to get one Persona.

I actually don't mind the emotion thing as a gauge of how well you're doing in a negotiation, since that was sort of my beef in SMT4, but after getting told the, oh what was it, the rule was like "give once or twice, end negotiation, repeat till success" thing, which worked out well enough most of the time, I did find it much less painful. The real difference or clincher was that SMT4 had a Compendium, meaning I didn't have to acquire new demons if I didn't want to. I could just keep buying old ones and fusing them in new ways, which is precisely what I did for most of the game.

P1 is sort of different from P2, though, in that doing the same action does in fact provoke different responses, and I never feel like there's enough leeway to really try to find a new "good" response before it all goes topsy turvy on me.

If we really want to talk about something unfun, not reliable and not well designed, we could talk about P3 and P4's dungeons.



What didn't you like about the SMT IV system? It's waaaaayyy better than the randomly generated grindy non sense that P3/P4 gives you. It's not that bad in Persona because the games don't have fully customizable parties and you hardly need to fuse in P4(black frost nukes the game and I used Orpheus up until

Spoiler

hanged man

for P3P) but that kind of non sense in a game with 400 demons? LOL.(I'm assuming you don't find the random persona mechanic in P3/P4 unfun, unreliable and not well designed)

1. I actually don't think I can name an RPG where I felt dungeon design was good. I can name some where I think it was bad, but I don't know that I've ever felt like one was particularly stellar.

2. Which random element of grindyness are we talking about? I feel like this is something obvious and I'm just not remembering it. Maybe I would change my position if somebody stopped assuming I was intelligent and told me what we're talking about?

 

[Meia]

Yeah, the demon negotiation system in Persona 2 was much better an a step up when compared to SMT1. Random annoys me, and man was that random as hell. There are charts for IS and EP that tell you exactly what to say to get exactly what you want. Because of that, there's no randomness really involved, so they're much better systems I feel.

 

[Refyref]

This isn't true, actually. Shuffle Time can be invoked reliably by preforming an All-Out Attack to end the battle, and what appears in Shuffle Time is based off what enemies you fight (in Persona 4) or what section of Tartarus you're in (in Persona 3.)

Likewise, all the minigames have specific rules for them that makes getting a Persona fairly reliable every time. In this sense, P4G's system is more unreliable than the one present in vanilla Persona 4. Or any version of Persona 3.

I know about the AOA thing, but it's not always plausible. As for the second paragraph, that already the territory of reading the mechanics behind it, in which case, how is it different than a negotiations guide? (I also dislike playing those minigames, but that's another thing.)

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

This isn't true, actually. Shuffle Time can be invoked reliably by preforming an All-Out Attack to end the battle, and what appears in Shuffle Time is based off what enemies you fight (in Persona 4) or what section of Tartarus you're in (in Persona 3.)

Likewise, all the minigames have specific rules for them that makes getting a Persona fairly reliable every time. In this sense, P4G's system is more unreliable than the one present in vanilla Persona 4. Or any version of Persona 3.

Ah cool, I thought it was just based off what dungeon you were in.

 

[Sophia]

I actually don't mind the emotion thing as a gauge of how well you're doing in a negotiation, since that was sort of my beef in SMT4, but after getting told the, oh what was it, the rule was like "give once or twice, end negotiation, repeat till success" thing, which worked out well enough most of the time, I did find it much less painful. The real difference or clincher was that SMT4 had a Compendium, meaning I didn't have to acquire new demons if I didn't want to. I could just keep buying old ones and fusing them in new ways, which is precisely what I did for most of the game.

P1 is sort of different from P2, though, in that doing the same action does in fact provoke different responses, and I never feel like there's enough leeway to really try to find a new "good" response before it all goes topsy turvy on me.

Both Persona 1 and Persona 2 has specific reactions from enemies that change how they feel regarding those reactions. Persona 1 just has more of them, so it can feel a bit random until you realize it.

You could keep buying demons from the compendium in SMT IV, but it's highly inefficient. Not only does it cost you money, but you miss out on the other benefits such as forcing demons to heal you, talking your way out of an encounter, or giving you lots of Macca.

I know about the AOA thing, but it's not always plausible. As for the second paragraph, that already the territory of reading the mechanics behind it, in which case, how is it different than a negotiations guide? (I also dislike playing those minigames, but that's another thing.)

Personally, I don't use negotiation guides for P1/P2. I'd much rather find the effective conversations myself. But both systems are pretty similar, in that they're fairly reliable. Shuffle Time just takes the fluff out and cuts straight to getting the Persona.

Ah cool, I thought it was just based off what dungeon you were in.

There's some more specifics to it. But the short jist is that every dungeon has about ten levels worth of Personas in it based on what you fight, with around five levels of overlap with the dungeon before and after it.

 

[CorvoSol]

Oh are we talking about Shuffle Time? I dunno, then. It never felt random to me. Just win a fight with an AOA (which was fairly easy to do and figure out) and follow the card with my eyes. I didn't have to take the card out to dinner and meet its parents before getting .5 of a Persona, either. Pick a card, get a Persona or a bonus. Plus in P3, P4 and SMT4 I had a compendium.

I think the lack of a compendium is also a deterrent for me to step back into other games in the series, because it takes such a burden off my shoulders in SMT4. In that sense, I can agree to Buddha's "make there be options for whoever or whatever" stuff. Because the compendium sort of did make demon negotiation optional, and I did appreciate that.

For Innocent Sin, I think I should clarify that the only real issue I care to voice with demon negotiation is that you sometimes cannot avoid it. Much of what made it a pain in my ass in Persona 1 is gone, yes, but in Persona 1 (and SMT4, if memory serves?) I could say "ignore demon" when one wanted to talk at the start of a fight and just duke it out. But in Innocent Sin I can't, or at least it isn't clear how to do so, so I'm kinda stuck doing it, and I'm not much of a fan of that.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

1. I actually don't think I can name an RPG where I felt dungeon design was good. I can name some where I think it was bad, but I don't know that I've ever felt like one was particularly stellar.

2. Which random element of grindyness are we talking about? I feel like this is something obvious and I'm just not remembering it. Maybe I would change my position if somebody stopped assuming I was intelligent and told me what we're talking about?

1. Strange Journey is like the Magnum Opus for dungeon design in megaten. I also preferred SMT IV's dungeons that felt like actually areas you explore and not randomly generated hallways. Apparently those don't count as "dungeons" though.

2. You can't actually pick which Persona you want specially, although in a game without customizable parties, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Refyref]

Oh are we talking about Shuffle Time? I dunno, then. It never felt random to me. Just win a fight with an AOA (which was fairly easy to do and figure out) and follow the card with my eyes. I didn't have to take the card out to dinner and meet its parents before getting .5 of a Persona, either. Pick a card, get a Persona or a bonus. Plus in P3, P4 and SMT4 I had a compendium.

That's basically how I feel about negotiations, though. (In SMT games, or Soul Hacker.) Just find the demon I want in battle, and negotiate it, which then I have a high chance of getting it, since I'm familiar with the system. That makes Shuffle Time a more random thing for me.

 

[CorvoSol]

1. Strange Journey is like the Magnum Opus for dungeon design in megaten. I also preferred SMT IV's dungeons that felt like actually areas you explore and not randomly generated hallways. Apparently those don't count as "dungeons" though.

2. You can't actually pick which Persona you want specially, although in a game without customizable parties, it doesn't really matter.

I was okay with SMT4's dungeon designs. Domains could be a little confusing, but that was sort of the point of them, so whatever. I think one of my favorite parts of SMT4 was running around areas of town that were just wrecked. I really love the post demon apocalypse survival horror feeling that game gave off. Strange Journey is the DS one, right? But it's all in first person, and I don't think I'm quite up for another one of those just yet.

 

[Refyref]

1. Strange Journey is like the Magnum Opus for dungeon design in megaten. I also preferred SMT IV's dungeons that felt like actually areas you explore and not randomly generated hallways. Apparently those don't count as "dungeons" though.

Strange Journey's dungeons are more of EO dungeons just put in a SMT game.
And I thought SMT4's dungeons were good, even if they were not floor based, so some people don't consider them dungeons.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Strange Journey's dungeons are more of EO dungeons just put in a SMT game.
And I thought SMT4's dungeons were good, even if they were not floor based, so some people don't consider them dungeons.

EO has amazing dungeons, the main thing I like about them.

edit:I really dislike the art in those games. PQ isn't as bad to me so I'm hoping to really get into that one.

 

[CorvoSol]

That's basically how I feel about negotiations, though. (In SMT games, or Soul Hacker.) Just find the demon I want in battle, and negotiate it, which then I have a high chance of getting it, since I'm familiar with the system. That makes Shuffle Time a more random thing for me.

The difference, for me anyway, is that I find Shuffle Time a much faster process. Pick a card and I'm on my merry way, it's over in a matter of seconds. Whereas Demon negotiation is much longer and drawn out. Which in and of itself I recognize does not necessarily have to be bad, since I can see it being engaging and entertaining to others, but which I feel is sort of a pain when tied to party growth and stuff.

 

[Sophia]

The difference, for me anyway, is that I find Shuffle Time a much faster process. Pick a card and I'm on my merry way, it's over in a matter of seconds. Whereas Demon negotiation is much longer and drawn out. Which in and of itself I recognize does not necessarily have to be bad, since I can see it being engaging and entertaining to others, but which I feel is sort of a pain when tied to party growth and stuff.

Yeah. That's the big difference between the two. Worst part is, it doesn't have to be that slow. Negotiation in the main series never is. It's just something exclusive to P1/P2.

 

[CorvoSol]

Yeah. That's the big difference between the two. Worst part is, it doesn't have to be that slow. Negotiation in the main series never is. It's just something exclusive to P1/P2.

Well, fair enough. I won't write the entire SMT series off if it is really that different, but negotiation remains a pretty big deterrent all the same. Does SMT3 have a compendium or similar service? Because that would be a consolation.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Well, fair enough. I won't write the entire SMT series off if it is really that different, but negotiation remains a pretty big deterrent all the same. Does SMT3 have a compendium or similar service? Because that would be a consolation.

yes

 

[Swedesu]

We are talking Strange Journey and no one mentions the soundtrack?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FzqIA_tpv0k

One of the best in the series, in my opinion.

 

[Sophia]

Well, fair enough. I won't write the entire SMT series off if it is really that different, but negotiation remains a pretty big deterrent all the same. Does SMT3 have a compendium or similar service? Because that would be a consolation.

SMT3 is the game that introduced the compendium, so yes.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

We are talking Strange Journey and no one mentions the soundtrack?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FzqIA_tpv0k

One of the best in the series, in my opinion.

I think it has one of the weakest megaten OSTs ever.

 

[CorvoSol]

yes

SMT3 is the game that introduced the compendium, so yes.

Well that's good news. Now if only I had a means to play it. During the School Year I don't have access to a console, haha. Just hand helds.

 

[Refyref]

I think it has one of the weakest megaten OSTs ever.

I personally love it for how it fits the unique atmosphere of the game, and how unique it is in general.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

nvm

 

[Spectrasonic]

Man, I hated P4A's story, since it pretty much just disregards the last few events in P4. Spoilerz:

Spoiler

At the end of P4, the whole IT is running after Yu's train, crying over how much they'll miss him. In P4A, Yosuke, Chie and Yukiko see him for the first time and are basically like "oh, it's you, whatever. TV NOW." Rise, Naoto, Kanji and Teddie have an even lesser reaction. I find these polar opposite reactions odd.

Also, Yu is now a god-slayer, and should be able to kill Shadow Labrys, Sho, etc by BLINKING. Of course this isn't in the gameplay for balance purposes, but Yu's power is not even hinted at, like he's just another purse-owner user. P4U2's ad in Famitsu makes it seem like Yu saves the day, plus it's said that Sho hates Yu, so maybe this complaint of mine gets addressed in the next game.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

I personally love it for how it fits the unique atmosphere of the game, and how unique it is in general.

It had a good concept but the end result was mediocre imo. Meguro isn't really good at that kind of music. They should have outsourced the music to Yasunori Mitsuda or any of those other freelance people that have done the epic orchestral stuff for Square Enix games.

 

[SloaneRisette]

Man, I hated P4A's story, since it pretty much just disregards the last few events in P4. Spoilerz:

Spoiler

At the end of P4, the whole IT is running after Yu's train, crying over how much they'll miss him. In P4A, Yosuke, Chie and Yukiko see him for the first time and are basically like "oh, it's you, whatever. TV NOW." Rise, Naoto, Kanji and Teddie have an even lesser reaction. I find these polar opposite reactions odd.

Also, Yu is now a god-slayer, and should be able to kill Shadow Labrys, Sho, etc by BLINKING. Of course this isn't in the gameplay for balance purposes, but Yu's power is not even hinted at, like he's just another purse-owner user. P4U2's ad in Famitsu makes it seem like Yu saves the day, plus it's said that Sho hates Yu, so maybe this complaint of mine gets addressed in the next game.

Don't make me post the Dantis video

 

[CorvoSol]

Man, I hated P4A's story, since it pretty much just disregards the last few events in P4. Spoilerz:

Spoiler

At the end of P4, the whole IT is running after Yu's train, crying over how much they'll miss him. In P4A, Yosuke, Chie and Yukiko see him for the first time and are basically like "oh, it's you, whatever. TV NOW." Rise, Naoto, Kanji and Teddie have an even lesser reaction. I find these polar opposite reactions odd.

Also, Yu is now a god-slayer, and should be able to kill Shadow Labrys, Sho, etc by BLINKING. Of course this isn't in the gameplay for balance purposes, but Yu's power is not even hinted at, like he's just another purse-owner user. P4U2's ad in Famitsu makes it seem like Yu saves the day, plus it's said that Sho hates Yu, so maybe this complaint of mine gets addressed in the next game.

I dunno on this second point. At least in Elizabeth's mode they do pimp him out.

That said I was kinda annoyed/confused by

Spoiler

ME's whole "oh look you drove back a God!" Wait, bro, between the combined casts of P4 and P3 we've driven back like, four Gods. At least.

 

[Refyref]

It had a good concept but the end result was mediocre imo. Meguro isn't really good at that kind of music. They should have outsourced the music to Yasunori Mitsuda or any of those other freelance people that have done the epic orchestral stuff for Square Enix games.

Heh, considering my favorite works of his is when he tries something different, I'm not really one to judge by. (Although I agree about that second point.)

 

[Jintor]

They're more like Guds

 

[Refyref]

That said I was kinda annoyed/confused by

Spoiler

ME's whole "oh look you drove back a God!" Wait, bro, between the combined casts of P4 and P3 we've driven back like, four Gods. At least.

This in general is why it's hard to make direct RPG sequels without having some weirdness.

 

[Sophia]

Man, I hated P4A's story, since it pretty much just disregards the last few events in P4. Spoilerz:

Spoiler

At the end of P4, the whole IT is running after Yu's train, crying over how much they'll miss him. In P4A, Yosuke, Chie and Yukiko see him for the first time and are basically like "oh, it's you, whatever. TV NOW." Rise, Naoto, Kanji and Teddie have an even lesser reaction. I find these polar opposite reactions odd.

Also, Yu is now a god-slayer, and should be able to kill Shadow Labrys, Sho, etc by BLINKING. Of course this isn't in the gameplay for balance purposes, but Yu's power is not even hinted at, like he's just another purse-owner user. P4U2's ad in Famitsu makes it seem like Yu saves the day, plus it's said that Sho hates Yu, so maybe this complaint of mine gets addressed in the next game.

In regards to your first paragraph, it's hard to sympathize or agree with your opinion when you deliberately ignore plot points for the sake of justifying it.

Spoiler

They made it very clear how serious the Midnight Channel coming back on was. Plus they hold a celebration right after, which you see in several story modes.

 

[Moonlight]

Well, fair enough. I won't write the entire SMT series off if it is really that different, but negotiation remains a pretty big deterrent all the same. Does SMT3 have a compendium or similar service? Because that would be a consolation.

I'll chip in and say that the Devil Survivor games lack demon negotiation entirely. You acquire more demons by buying them at an auction-house, and there's a Compendium.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Man, I hated P4A's story, since it pretty much just disregards the last few events in P4. Spoilerz:

Spoiler

At the end of P4, the whole IT is running after Yu's train, crying over how much they'll miss him. In P4A, Yosuke, Chie and Yukiko see him for the first time and are basically like "oh, it's you, whatever. TV NOW." Rise, Naoto, Kanji and Teddie have an even lesser reaction. I find these polar opposite reactions odd.

Also, Yu is now a god-slayer, and should be able to kill Shadow Labrys, Sho, etc by BLINKING. Of course this isn't in the gameplay for balance purposes, but Yu's power is not even hinted at, like he's just another purse-owner user. P4U2's ad in Famitsu makes it seem like Yu saves the day, plus it's said that Sho hates Yu, so maybe this complaint of mine gets addressed in the next game.

1.

Spoiler

How else would you react to a friend returning to visit during vacation? He hadn't died and then come back from the dead; he just left on a train, with the promise that they would keep in touch and meet each other again.

2.

Spoiler

Yu's power is explicitly hinted at during Elizabeth's story after she faces him, where even she is in awe of the power he shows depicts.

But I wouldn't compare that power that he obtained from his bonds and from his desire to seek the truth to attaining the level of super saiyan or something that he could call upon at any moment just like that. It's more ambiguous than that, clearly. If anything, it's something that he can really only call upon when he's really cornered (Izanami, Elizabeth and Margaret).

Also, I wouldn't assume that Yu will be the one to save the day in P4U2.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Heh, considering my favorite works of his is when he tries something different, I'm not really one to judge by. (Although I agree about that second point.)

Meguro is absolutely the jack of all trades, doesn't mean he excels in all of the genres he tries though. I could definitely see how someone could like it though, cool to see a megaten game without guitars everywhere.

Also, I wouldn't assume that Yu will be the one to save the day in P4U2.

Who else is going to do it, Rise Lol?

 

[CorvoSol]

This in general is why it's hard to make direct RPG sequels without having some weirdness.

True. I think this is why some games like FF4 go "Oh it's been 17 years!" or introduce new protagonists when they do sequels. Granted when you first get Cecil in TAY he's pretty buff for a man who has been living the high life for 17 years.

I'll chip in and say that the Devil Survivor games lack demon negotiation entirely. You acquire more demons by buying them at an auction-house, and there's a Compendium.

Which one are those again? The DS ones with the green haired lady? I confuse Devil Survivor and Soul Hackers in my head CONSTANTLY. I do not know why.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Who else is going to do it, Rise Lol?

Uh, no? Why does it have to be Yu? We don't even know what the main conflict of the story is.

The P4A manga shows that Yosuke was the one that saved the day, helped by others, and that might be what P-GP depicts as well. It's baseless to just say Yu will solve everything.

 

[todd360]

I hope senpai notices my demon negotiation skillz today.

 

[Soriku]

Which one are those again? The DS ones with the green haired lady? I confuse Devil Survivor and Soul Hackers in my head CONSTANTLY. I do not know why.

The ones with rocket tits.

 

[LX_Theo]

Also, I wouldn't assume that Yu will be the one to save the day in P4U2.

Ken to the rescue!

 

[Twilightzoney]

I don't think Junpei made it to college though

He could still be in High School!? I mean thats what they are going for right?

Spoiler

lol

 

[Meia]

Uh, no? Why does it have to be Yu? We don't even know what the main conflict of the story is.

The P4A manga shows that Yosuke was the one that saved the day, helped by others, and that might be what P-GP depicts as well. It's baseless to just say Yu will solve everything.

So the P4A manga is totally over, and Yosuke's the one that saves Labrys? Cause that would be awesome.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

Who else is going to do it, Rise Lol?

Junpei. Dis looks like a job for DA MAN!

 

[FluxWaveZ]

So the P4A manga is totally over, and Yosuke's the one that saves Labrys? Cause that would be awesome.

The manga has been over for several months now. The last issue came out at the end of February, and the full thing was out several weeks before then.

 

[SloaneRisette]

I hope senpai notices my demon negotiation skillz today.

Don't worry, she won't

They never do :'(

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Uh, no? Why does it have to be Yu? We don't even know what the main conflict of the story is.

The P4A manga shows that Yosuke was the one that saved the day, helped by others, and that might be what P-GP depicts as well. It's baseless to just say Yu will solve everything.

If that's the case, why can't Rise save the day? Is there a story reason?

Junpei. Dis looks like a job for DA MAN!

Ah, good call. He's the best man for the job.

 

[Swedesu]

Meguro is absolutely the jack of all trades, doesn't mean he excels in all of the genres he tries though. I could definitely see how someone could like it though, cool to see a megaten game without guitars everywhere.

Yeah that's basically why I like it. Expecting those megaten guitars (which are super awesome don't get me wrong) and then just getting floored by that orchestral main theme and battle theme.

Having just listened through it again it might not be my favorite, but still very solid with a few standout tracks (like the one I linked).

 

[CorvoSol]

The ones with rocket tits.

I did not know there was an SMT game that crossed over with Mazinger.

 

[hao chi]

My P4A main dressed as my BB main? Neat.

 

[SloaneRisette]

Shadow Rise and normal Ken team up to save the day

 

[FluxWaveZ]

If that's the case, why can't Rise save the day? Is there a story reason?

That's not what I said. I said "uh, no?" as in "uh, I don't see why it has to be Rise either?" I don't see how simplistic your viewpoint has to be to think that a single character has to save the day.

 

[CrazyTank940]

My P4A main dressed as my Skullgirls main is okay in my book

 

[Jintor]

That's not what I said. I said "uh, no?" as in "uh, I don't see why it has to be Rise either?" I don't see how simplistic your viewpoint has to be to think that a single character has to save the day.

but muh heroes journey