P4D (presumably) doesn't take place in Inaba, though.
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Persona Community Thread |OT7| P5 is nyaow. (Mark all PQ and P4U spoilers!)
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P4D (presumably) doesn't take place in Inaba, though.
New picture:
Happy new year, guys!
That's true.
It just seems bonkers, considering what The Answer is.
Happy new year, guys!
That's true.
It just seems bonkers, considering what The Answer is.
What would you say it "is"?
they'll find a way, i know it
LelouchViBritannia
Member
Happy new year guys.
Dantis, you're getting really good man. Awesome pic.
Still using photoshop?
Dantis, you're getting really good man. Awesome pic.
Still using photoshop?
A gameplay-centric expansion on Persona 3 that strips out a lot of what made Persona 3 interesting, with a bad story, bad characterisation and no variety up until the vaguely interesting end sequence?
I didn't hate The Answer (and weirdly, didn't have anywhere near the trouble some people had with it), but it wasn't great either.
Sure am!
Also thanks!
Well, surely you could understand why someone whose opinions of "what makes Persona 3 interesting" are different from yours would have a different opinion of The Answer. For instance, the fact that it didn't have any social links was my favorite part about it.
buddha0991
Member
^Bingo
For me it stripped out a lot of what I didn't like about P3 and I liked the story additions and I thought the characterization was fine, I don't get why people think its out of character for Yukari to act that way. Variety I will give you. The stuff The Answer stripped out was done leagues better for the most part in P4 and I always said P4 was P3 The Journey done more or less right.
For me it stripped out a lot of what I didn't like about P3 and I liked the story additions and I thought the characterization was fine, I don't get why people think its out of character for Yukari to act that way. Variety I will give you. The stuff The Answer stripped out was done leagues better for the most part in P4 and I always said P4 was P3 The Journey done more or less right.
LelouchViBritannia
Member
Im curious, what brush and canvas size are you using? Also how do you ink your sketches. Pen tool? Those lines are super crisp.
The Answer's narrative set up was contrived and the gameplay was a grind, but it developed the main characters in meaningful ways*. It also provided the perfect explanation as to why they can use Personas in the first place. It was flawed, but it wasn't a bad experience overall.
*Except for Fuuka.
*Except for Fuuka.
Standard hard brush with standard settings. 6k square canvas, usually. I have opacity turned off so that the brush is always 100% black, and size set to pen pressure.
I felt like it was just answering questions I wasn't asking.
i think it's called The Answer for a reason
oh and i never finished it cause i found it a bit boring. the harder difficulty just pissed me off and by that point I didn't really want to do that much more.
There were definitely some questions that needed answering though, like:
"Why can they summon Personas?"
Persona 3 never goes into why they can a summon a Persona in the first place. A half-hearted "because they have the potential" was all that was given. The backstory given to the main cast (sans Fuuka) was terrific.
Junpei's especially.
buddha0991
Member
if you don't like the sound of no slinks, harder enemies and no fusion spells or Persona compendium, dont. If increased challenge and pure dungeons no social sounds ok to you, do. Youtube it at least.
Why is there no compendium?
It does? There's Aigis but, other than that, there is much more meaningful character development in The Journey compared to the small arcs they go through in The Answer.
buddha0991
Member
Probably for challenge, no reason is ever given, it just doesn't have it.
RockderBanja
Member
It's been a while since I've played 3, but does Fuuka mention anything about her home or back story, other than
"The rest of my family are doctors, minus my parents."?
Because the developers hate players.
Atlus seems to have realized that annoying the players does not equal challenge, however.
Aigis, Yukari, Mitsuru.... and that's about the extent of it. The rest of the cast don't have major developments. You do however get to see the end results of Junpei's development throughout the main game, and it's quite the payoff.
Yeah, if there's anything I could actually say is funny, it's that there've been three games so far (soon to be four) that have acted as sequels to P4, yet every single main character has remained completely static in terms of personality throughout all of them, minus Rise's Persona.
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing but, like we've discussed before, it's why I think P3 had a more complex set of characters who naturally evolved over the course of the story, especially since their development wasn't restricted to Social Links. Junpei is a really awesome character in The Answer, while he really got on my nerves before the last half of The Journey, and it's fantastic that they could make my opinion of him change like that.
I wonder if Hashino talking about how he spent a tremendous amount of time this year thinking about the emotional evolution of the P5 protagonist over the course of the story could be a return to form, that way. Narukami certainly didn't change at all during the course of P4, outside of a (poorly done) additional ending that P4G introduced.
the best part of Persona 3 is Koromaru.
We all know the idea of a Persona using dog is still the funniest thing in the whole series.
Koromaru has a very strong grip on his own self and mortality, thus the ability to summon a Persona. He's more emotionally mature than those dumb high school kids.
Green Mamba
Member
I like to think because Aigis asked Elizabeth, "Can I look in the book?" and Elizabeth said, "....no."
DryEyeRelief
Member
If you do, don't put Mitsuru in your party.
Koromaru is so damn self-secure his Persona never even needs to evolve.
oh god, this sounds horrific, no thanks
Nadda. Fuuka literally does not receive any development in The Answer (We don't even get a proper reason for why she unlocks her person either). Basically, the character who needed the most development gets squat. Go figure.
I don't think that's the case anymore. Persona Q gives us a glimpse of what P4 characters are like after their major developments. They're all pretty different from how they were like at the beginning of P4.
Take Yosuke for example. At the beginning of Persona 4, he was this tactless, irritable, and inconsiderate individual. But as of Persona Q, he's now dedicated, reliable and much more mature person than before. He's still irritable and prone to saying stupid or unnecessary things, but overall, he's much more level-headed than he used to be. Prior to Persona Q, his growths were only really reflected in his social link, but we get to see what a changed Yosuke is like in front of others now.
And it's not just Yosuke. Even someone like Yukiko has changed from the mild-mannered meek girl who was always reliant on others to a much more spirited and outspoken person. The most important change is that she's definitely capable of standing on her own two feet now. Kanji's infinitely less acerbic and angry than he used to be (seriously, early P4 Kanji was an insecure asshole). He's more in-tune his true feelings now, and is willing to show off his sweeter side to others (even in front of strangers). Naoto hasn't changed much either, but she'smuch more willing to relax around her friends now, and is generally less of a stick in the mud. Rise didn't really need to change beyond P4, and I thought her development in P4AU was terrible. Though she's back to being amazing character in Persona Q, so i'll let it slide.
The only characters who didn't change were Chie and Teddie (i'd argue that they regressed beyond P4).
The justification was that there was no need to see it because she awakened to her Persona in the game itself, where as everyone else awakened to it sometime before the game.
Persona Q doesn't count. The three games I was referring to were P4G, P4A and P4AU, which all have (segments that) take place after P4. I haven't finished the game yet, but unless the personality of the characters somehow tie into the ending of their respective games significantly, Persona Q isn't the kind of thing I'm talking about when it comes to character development, as that's an isolated story which takes the pre-existing personalities of the characters. In fact, PQ would be exactly the kind of setting that wouldn't allow for character development because of its nature as a side story.
What you describe for each character is basically how they each already are after they face their Shadows in the original game. We've discussed this before, but that's what I mean when I say that how the characters develop in P3 compared to P4 is more involved and over the course of a longer period of time instead of quick, mini arcs after their complexes have been faced. In P3, all of it culminates into significant payoffs concerning most of the main cast, while there's nothing like it in P4 outside of "You're me, and I'm you" or the isolated Social Links, which do not actually tie back into the story.
The only other main Persona game that I can think of where the cast remained mostly static in terms of personality throughout it is Persona 1. All of the others had some big changes on that front.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
.
To be fair, isn't that because she's the only one who awakens to her Persona for the first time in The Journey (aside from the protagonist)?
Ya know, it is pretty jarring thinking about Fuuka gets no scenes at all in the Answer. Isn't she the only one that actually doesn't? The hell is that about?
"Hi, I have parents who don't give enough of a shit to report me missing after 10 days, but we'll NEVER go into why, even in an "extra" mode made after the base game that could have." Wut.
"Hi, I have parents who don't give enough of a shit to report me missing after 10 days, but we'll NEVER go into why, even in an "extra" mode made after the base game that could have." Wut.
It totally does. It illustrates the change in their character from the beginning of their journey, to near the end of it. They can hardly be called static if they've changed that much in a period of time. Prior to PQ, the main point of contention with the P4 characters was that they didn't change all that much outside of their social links, but Persona Q explicitly allows them to show just that. If anything, P4A & P4AU doesn't count due to how the story is set up and due to it's inferior writing in general. Persona Q literally incorporates every major event in P4, barring the endgame (including social links + golden events). I really don't think it's fair to call them static characters anymore.
Junpei and Yukari summon their Personas for their first time when you take them into Tartarus, but The Answer still goes out of their way to show why they were able to do so in the first place. It's the same with Fuuka. Akihiko claims that she has the potential from the get go, but we don't know why that's the case. It's because the game never properly takes the time to properly develop her character. Her true reason for being a Persona user is completely unclear-Unless you're implying that something as wishy-washy as wanting to protect her friend gives her the ability to summon a Persona.
I actually think that P4AU does have some token development shown for the casts of P4. Especially the game's ending, which shows how each of them are working toward the goals they want. Rise's already been discussed, but I think P4A and AU have both shown that Yosuke's built on his ability to take charge. His experiences in P4 are what help him overcome his shock at seeing Labrys' true self, for instance. Yosuke's story mode in P4A is a good example anyway because we get to see him in a different set of shoes than in P4. He's getting to live up to the heroic aspirations he had, and his successes and failures therein shed new light on his character.
Obviously some characters, like Kanji and Teddie, get the shaft for comedy's sake, but I do think others manage to do more than they've been given credit here.
I think a lot of the Arena games are more centered on the interactions of the two casts, though, so a lot of it becomes a matter of how do these established characters play off of one another. To that extent I really enjoy them, because I think they've done a good job of working that angle. There's a sort of mentorship thing going on for some of the characters, like how Chie and Rise draw inspiration from their encounters with Akihiko and Fuuka, but there's also some matching of wits and wills when Yu and Naoto are dealing with Mitsuru.
Labrys, as I think I stated earlier, is the star of the show in that she's got to establish herself, develop herself, and interact with a pretty big cast. And since she even manages to make hot dump Sho into someone worth talking about, I'd say she's done pretty well.
Obviously some characters, like Kanji and Teddie, get the shaft for comedy's sake, but I do think others manage to do more than they've been given credit here.
I think a lot of the Arena games are more centered on the interactions of the two casts, though, so a lot of it becomes a matter of how do these established characters play off of one another. To that extent I really enjoy them, because I think they've done a good job of working that angle. There's a sort of mentorship thing going on for some of the characters, like how Chie and Rise draw inspiration from their encounters with Akihiko and Fuuka, but there's also some matching of wits and wills when Yu and Naoto are dealing with Mitsuru.
Labrys, as I think I stated earlier, is the star of the show in that she's got to establish herself, develop herself, and interact with a pretty big cast. And since she even manages to make hot dump Sho into someone worth talking about, I'd say she's done pretty well.
I'm not sure we're referring to the same thing, here. What I'm talking about is strictly depictions of character arcs throughout the main game (Persona 4) and what happens after that story ends. I'm not referring to Persona Q here, because that's not something that takes place over the course of P4. PQ might demonstrate whatever changes they went through in more detail, contrasting their pre-Shadow confrontation and post-Shadow confrontation selves, but the game is clearly a celebration of Persona 3 and Persona 4, and not meant to seriously tie into their separate storylines, which I think is what Atlus USA was advocating when they were saying it was being labeled as "canon" as a way to indicate that the character interactions were not surface level in quality.
DryEyeRelief
Member
nvm
The way I see it, Persona Q acts as a substitute for Persona 4 in terms of character development. Since the main characters don't change that much in Persona 4, Persona Q basically steps in to rectify that by showing us how much they changed. Because P4 never really got to do that outside of social links. In any case, there really isn't much room for the P4 characters to go through arcs in arena games, given how short and self contained those games. The P3 characters literally had years to grow.
Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about. My main point was this:
Which is why I also mentioned Persona 5. All of these side games aren't main Persona games, so I mostly referred to them facetiously, while I'm strictly comparing P3 to P4. It's P4's shortcomings on the subject that I'm targeting, not whatever PQ (or what even P4D could) rectifies
As long as social links are optional, growth in them will be. The solution of course isn't to have them not in the game or something, but to do the bioware thing where even some minor dialogue changes can happen based on the mindset a character is at. You could even do a meta Bioware thing with the branching point P4 had(
.
Still though, in PQ you can tell that the mindset for the characters in that was definitely post having all of their links maxed. It also definitely gives more to the idea that the characters in P4 having their Persona's evolve is more of a "gamey" thing than something that would have happened. Then again, I guess the Animation showed that too by having a scene that almost required all of theirs to change.
as in, maxing Yosuke's link may not have made him such a raging maniac in the Namatame scene, or made him easier to convince than 6 "exact" contrived responses)
Still though, in PQ you can tell that the mindset for the characters in that was definitely post having all of their links maxed. It also definitely gives more to the idea that the characters in P4 having their Persona's evolve is more of a "gamey" thing than something that would have happened. Then again, I guess the Animation showed that too by having a scene that almost required all of theirs to change.
Maybe, but in Persona 3, I felt that Mitsuru and Yukari go through a lot during the course of the core story, while their Social Links actually further explore what they're going through in the story rather than completely disassociate their S. Link moments and the narrative. I don't think P4 did this (can't remember outside of maybe Marie), but P3 handled this by actually preventing you from continuing a Social Link if a certain story moment hadn't been triggered first.
Summoned, not awakened. They awakened to the potential much earlier. It's like how the Persona 1 cast awakened to their Personas during the dream, but didn't summon them some time later. When all hell starts breaking loose. Or how the Persona 2 cast
awoken to them as kids
The scenes we see in The Answer are when the casts awaken to their Personas, not when they summoned them. Fuuka awoken to hers during the game, so there was no need to show it to us again.
There are issues with Fuuka's character in P3, for sure. This isn't one of them tho.
this has been discussed quite a bit whenever P5 improvements come up but P5 definitely needs to incorporate social links more into the story rather than the bubble they are in in P4. It's odd, I don't really remember that in P3 though, didn't finish Mitsuru in my playthrough and I think i finished Yukari.
Well, P4 kind of did this in that team members don't become social links until they actually join the team(like Kanji is in town in the first two months, but you wouldn't know it until he appears on TV the first time). The characters in P3 that have their story growth reflect the social link purposely gate their social link start points after the point where those story beats happen. You could have max academics and ace the first exam, you're not starting Empress til almost December anyway.
Not sure I remember any case in 3 where a social link would stall before a story beat. P4G I want to say was the first time they did this with the 2 new social links they added.
About Fuuka, I don't think we saw her Awakening. We saw her first summon, but she could sense shadows long before that(she wouldn't have survived the 10 hours otherwise).
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