King Gilgamesh
Banned
I agree, but this includes characters like NAOTO (not Nanako lol) and Teddie, who aren't initially presented as playable party members. Like, Naoto joins right after the halfway point of the game, and even
their gender
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Persona Community Thread |OT8| Coming Winter 2014
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I agree, but this includes characters like NAOTO (not Nanako lol) and Teddie, who aren't initially presented as playable party members. Like, Naoto joins right after the halfway point of the game, and even
I want to use this post to jump onto another topic: I love how Persona 4 basically uses the same plot twist three times in a row.
Most every JRPG in existence has a "real" villain after the initial instigator is defeated, and Persona 4 runs with that in a way that screws with the player's expectations.
Mitsuo is the obvious fake. The game never pretends for a significant amount of time that Mitsuo could actually be the killer, with the characters only deciding that he is because of some circumstantial evidence. Despite Rise declaring that everything will be over once they beat Shadow Mitsuo, it's clear to anyone with a remote interest in RPGs that it's note the case. Mitsuo doesn't have an original theme, you're only about level 40; with a single demon whose about to learn a high-tier spell, and if you watched the game's opening then you know that Naoto is going to join the party. So you beat him and the game goes on.
Namatame is another fake, but in a different way than Mitsuo. We already found a false villain, so there's a small expectation that Namatame could actually be the real culprit. Unlike Mitsuo the game takes a hard turn for the serious with the protagonist's arrest, Nanako's kidnapping, and one of the more melancholy dungeons in the game: Heaven. More significantly, Namatame's fight is unique compared No Shadow Namatame with "I'll Face Myself" playing in the background, he becomes Kunino-Sagiri, this giant muppet jesus thing in a huge anime cutscene, and he has his own theme. He feels fundamentally different from the other boss fights, and by this point, you're powerful, but not quite Final Boss levels. Naoto has just joined and you maybe haven't started her Social Link, Teddie's Social Link, one of the only automatic ones in the game, still isn't over, and your other party members still have to evolve theirs.
Of course, the game isn't over yet. You rescue Nanako (who can be in the hospital for weeks if you rescue her as soon as you can) and things move on until Nanako dies and you confront Namatame in his room, and this is the point where it becomes blatantly obvious that he's not the true villain. The game very loosely dangles Nanako's death and your revenge in front of you, having Yosuke and Kanji encourage you to kill him, and you have to navigate a specific dialogue tree to spare him and continue on. The game actively rewards you for not killing Namatame, and very obviously punishes you with a bad ending if you do. So you keep going because you have to find the real killer.
Then we move on to the true culprit: Adachi, who's very obviously designed in a way that screams "real villain". He's significant in a way that Mitsuo and Namatame never are, because Adachi's been around since the beginning of the game, and he's consistently been a friendly goofball. When you catch him he starts using odd facial art and makes huge, villainous rants. So we chase after him, the state of the town in apocalyptic endgame mode like every JRPG in existence.
The actual fight with Adachi is another example of this. The first phase has Namatame's music playing, as if to emphasize that Namatame was never the villain and Adachi was truly behind it all, then most important of all, another divine entity pops out, claiming to be the mastermind behind everything. It possesses Adachi, rants about the evils of humanity, and turns into another giant monster with his own unique, climactic music theme. The way Ameno-Sagiri talks (there's that differentiation between the Shadows and the God bosses again) is practically lifted verbatim from every other time this happens. Right now, Persona 4 is doing everything in its power to convince you that Ameno-Sagiri is the final boss. The culprit's behind bars, the team has a nice celebration, you even get to skip to a Christmas date. The only hint the game gives you is the completion of the Judgement arcana after you win.
Once you beat Adachi, the story feels like it's over. You don't have the chance to run around town finishing up Social Links; the game just jumps you from December to April, unlike Mitsuo and Namatame's defeat where you continued as normal. This is when the game really starts messing with you. Persona 4's epilogue is structured the same way as Persona 3's last few days. You walk around town, reminiscing with your party members and Social Links, and the game keeps trying to get you to go home and even gives you a bright, happy ending if you leave now. You have to actively force your way through the game's prompts for you to return home and roll the credits. You have to decide that there's a few more questions to be answered, and push yourself through the ending the game's trying to give you, whereupon you finally meet the true mastermind: Izanami.
The genius of this repetition of the same plot twist is that by Adachi, you're left with the expectation that this really is the end. After two fake outs, Adachi is built up in a way that is specifically constructed to make you think he's the real culprit, and he is. But since Persona 4 was a game entirely about finding the murderer, you never think of anything beyond that. Ameno-Sagiri shows up, spouts generic garbage, and since you're so used to final bosses saying that, you just kind of passively accept it.
Mitsuo is the obvious fake. The game never pretends for a significant amount of time that Mitsuo could actually be the killer, with the characters only deciding that he is because of some circumstantial evidence. Despite Rise declaring that everything will be over once they beat Shadow Mitsuo, it's clear to anyone with a remote interest in RPGs that it's note the case. Mitsuo doesn't have an original theme, you're only about level 40; with a single demon whose about to learn a high-tier spell, and if you watched the game's opening then you know that Naoto is going to join the party. So you beat him and the game goes on.
Namatame is another fake, but in a different way than Mitsuo. We already found a false villain, so there's a small expectation that Namatame could actually be the real culprit. Unlike Mitsuo the game takes a hard turn for the serious with the protagonist's arrest, Nanako's kidnapping, and one of the more melancholy dungeons in the game: Heaven. More significantly, Namatame's fight is unique compared No Shadow Namatame with "I'll Face Myself" playing in the background, he becomes Kunino-Sagiri, this giant muppet jesus thing in a huge anime cutscene, and he has his own theme. He feels fundamentally different from the other boss fights, and by this point, you're powerful, but not quite Final Boss levels. Naoto has just joined and you maybe haven't started her Social Link, Teddie's Social Link, one of the only automatic ones in the game, still isn't over, and your other party members still have to evolve theirs.
Of course, the game isn't over yet. You rescue Nanako (who can be in the hospital for weeks if you rescue her as soon as you can) and things move on until Nanako dies and you confront Namatame in his room, and this is the point where it becomes blatantly obvious that he's not the true villain. The game very loosely dangles Nanako's death and your revenge in front of you, having Yosuke and Kanji encourage you to kill him, and you have to navigate a specific dialogue tree to spare him and continue on. The game actively rewards you for not killing Namatame, and very obviously punishes you with a bad ending if you do. So you keep going because you have to find the real killer.
Then we move on to the true culprit: Adachi, who's very obviously designed in a way that screams "real villain". He's significant in a way that Mitsuo and Namatame never are, because Adachi's been around since the beginning of the game, and he's consistently been a friendly goofball. When you catch him he starts using odd facial art and makes huge, villainous rants. So we chase after him, the state of the town in apocalyptic endgame mode like every JRPG in existence.
The actual fight with Adachi is another example of this. The first phase has Namatame's music playing, as if to emphasize that Namatame was never the villain and Adachi was truly behind it all, then most important of all, another divine entity pops out, claiming to be the mastermind behind everything. It possesses Adachi, rants about the evils of humanity, and turns into another giant monster with his own unique, climactic music theme. The way Ameno-Sagiri talks (there's that differentiation between the Shadows and the God bosses again) is practically lifted verbatim from every other time this happens. Right now, Persona 4 is doing everything in its power to convince you that Ameno-Sagiri is the final boss. The culprit's behind bars, the team has a nice celebration, you even get to skip to a Christmas date. The only hint the game gives you is the completion of the Judgement arcana after you win.
Once you beat Adachi, the story feels like it's over. You don't have the chance to run around town finishing up Social Links; the game just jumps you from December to April, unlike Mitsuo and Namatame's defeat where you continued as normal. This is when the game really starts messing with you. Persona 4's epilogue is structured the same way as Persona 3's last few days. You walk around town, reminiscing with your party members and Social Links, and the game keeps trying to get you to go home and even gives you a bright, happy ending if you leave now. You have to actively force your way through the game's prompts for you to return home and roll the credits. You have to decide that there's a few more questions to be answered, and push yourself through the ending the game's trying to give you, whereupon you finally meet the true mastermind: Izanami.
The genius of this repetition of the same plot twist is that by Adachi, you're left with the expectation that this really is the end. After two fake outs, Adachi is built up in a way that is specifically constructed to make you think he's the real culprit, and he is. But since Persona 4 was a game entirely about finding the murderer, you never think of anything beyond that. Ameno-Sagiri shows up, spouts generic garbage, and since you're so used to final bosses saying that, you just kind of passively accept it.
So, yeah, there's my on-the-fly essay on the genius of Persona 4's plot twists and how it plays with our expectations as players.
If only I could devote this much effort to school.
But why is "plot twist" inherently good? I'm one of the people who did not like Persona 4's final plot twist and, back when I experienced it, I thought they slapped it in at the end of the game's development because
they forgot to explain the intricacies of the Midnight Channel and other minor things.
The Izanami foreshadowing with the handshake was cheap and throwaway, lending to my previous belief that Izanami was slapped on at the end of development because it was just a singular, isolated scene at the beginning of the game that wouldn't have impacted anything except for the finale had it not been there.
Persona 3's ending was so much more powerful, and that's partly because it had a clear build up and sense of anticipation of what was to come. The whole game had pieces leading up to the climax, and it worked together. In Persona 4, they never really move forward in any meaningful way.
Every time someone is saved, their input on who the killer might be is: "I don't remember shit."
I think Persona 4 might have the weakest ending in the entire series.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
Persona 3's ending was awful and forced
King Gilgamesh
Banned
hat's some mighty shit taste you got there, friendo.
KenjiGlove
Banned
Yeah, the ending of Persona 3 is pretty good, Persona 3 as a whole felt like a more coherent story compared to 4 so that's probably why I prefer it.
I actually dislike the story of Persona 4 but I won't go into it now.
The conclusion of Persona 4, I'm talking about the scene with the train, was miles better then the rooftop scene in three though
ShadowSoldier89
Member
persona 3's ending consists of
glossed over memory loss, a soul hanging around in two places for a few months, and an attempt at an emotional scene that was laughable because it shouldve happened 3 months ago when the act was actually performed. It was all "We're going to do something depressing and thought provoking" and it was just terrible. and the P3 cast sucks for going through with the sacrifice of a friend
Catherine's twist was awful, but Persona 4 did it well.
Basically, Izanami is supposed to come out of left field. You spend so much time tracking down the murderer, going through two other potential culprits, that by the time you actually catch him the game has done so much to convince you that it's about to end using the same cues other JRPGs play completely straight (High levels, endgame map design and theme changing into something dramatic, big god dude who talks about how humanity is inherently flawed), you're conditioned into thinking that it's the end.
You're focusing on the denouement when the discussion was about the climax, and I think your last point is laughably superfluous.
I guess you appreciated it for the sake of the twist itself, but I need something more substantial when it comes to subverting the player's expectations.
Things coming out of nowhere to surprise someone does nothing for me, personally. I like meaning, with appropriate narrative build up and hinting towards something to expect, or build something up only to break it down in an intelligent way that makes sense when looking back at everything that happened.
This is way deep in the far end of the spectrum, but Mass Effect 3's ending was the same kind of "You didn't expect this now, did you?" and that was the worst thing I have ever experienced.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
the discussion was about the ending, I just focused on the part of 3 that stands out
The last point is a trend in storytelling that P3 focuses on thats incredibly boring
Modest Mauser
Member
Persona 3's ending was great. The last couple months are the best part of the game. It wasn't forced, it was kinda the whole point. It fit with the game's themes really well.
I loved that about P4. Too many RPGs focus on defeating the evil empire/church/God. It was nice to have a story with stakes that were high due to the relationships between characters instead of life itself being at stake.
And this is another part of why I didn't like where they went with it in P4. Keeping the conflict more intimate, more personal... that was much more meaningful than where it actually lead to, in a generic
"save the world"
I should mention, though, that my appreciation for
Izanami
Thinking about it, that makes me even more excited for Persona 5. The ties to Japanese mythology won't be present there like in Persona 4, which might make the overarching plot even more universally relatable.
See, I think the reveal at the end worked because of the repetitive nature of the twists I mentioned.
Persona 4 is a game about seeking the truth, which it conveys with all the subtlety of a brick to the face. It puts so much effort into making you think it's over on the last day that you have to actively struggle to keep the game from ending, with the reveal that everything was orchestrated by an asshole deity common to the Persona series. If you had no idea there was a true ending you could end the game right there and be completely satisfied. Everyone's happy, the murderer's behind bars, the Midnight Channel is still there (because as JRPG players we're used to the Bad Thing always being around unless HUMANITY IS STRONG ENOUGH) and your friends wave you off with a smile.
I admit it could have been better, but I greatly enjoy it on a meta level.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
there was definitely a "There has to be something more than this" feeling after the "last" dungeon in P4. The way to unlock the rest was flawed, but it was pretty obvious it wasnt over
A Dead Diehard
Member
I agree. I can understand why people like it, but it comes off as a shade too manipulative.
Especially how everyone but Aigis shows up the instant after the protagonist bites it.
imo, the MC should have dropped dead after the final 'fight' with Nyx, been forgotten until Graduation Day, then SEES rushes to the roof to find Aigis already there.
Please don't kill me for taking shots at a sacred cow.
No, that would be a totally reasonable way to do it too. The important thing is
the MC needs to be dead. That's what makes the whole game meaningful.
I love P4 but I would respect it more if
it had stuck with the small town serial murder mystery instead of contriving a "save the world" plot like every other JRPG ever, so I too was put off a bit by its twist. I disagree that it successfully subverts expectations, because the game had been consistently defying my expectations at every turn up to that point by not jumping the shark with a traditional "teens saving the world" plot. I appreciated the simplicity of Mayumi's affair being Adachi's motive, for example. And I wouldn't have even needed any explanation for the Midnight Channel, really.
While I don't disagree, that stuff is almost completely handled after the killer and their motives are revealed. It actually doesn't affect the killer's motives nor does it affect the "whodunnit" plot.
I mean, trust me, I'm not a big fan of that game's actual plot when you break it down. It's thematically spectacular though, and that's why I'm there.
It waters the core focus of the plot down by making it more grandiose than it had to be. Some don't take it that way, but that's what he and I (and I know many others) do.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
P4's plot stays personal throughout
if you played golden and arent a silly marie hater
So you'd have been fine with
no explanation of a mysterious phenomenon
I feel like the best part of Persona 4 is that it lets you ignore that. It lets you end the game thinking 'well that's the small town mystery all wrapped up.' But if you do that you're ignoring the loose ends; and ignoring the main message of the game.
That said, I agree with you that
it didn't need to be a save the world thing. That is kind of unnecessary and cliche. But I feel like that post Adach 'wait how did we get these powers in the first place' stuff is genius. Maybe if on the last day you investigate that and discover the truth and it isn't a world ending monster that'd be cool.
A Dead Diehard
Member
That's a whole other can of worms, but I'm glad I came up with a decent compromise.
I can understand wanting it explained and I agree that
it fits the game's motif, but plenty of mystery exists in the universe for which we may never reach an explanation (I had considered that P4 might actually go in that direction thematically). Not that that's at all satisfying to our curiosity, but it's perhaps a truth in and of itself that we need to accept. That said, I'm not saying I wouldn't be on board for a satisfying but less grandiose explanation. That was more of an aside to my main point about the plot twist.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
continuing P3 ending spoilers
I find sacrifice as a theme to be incredibly boring. It feels like a failure of the cast everytime, however the worst part of the ending was how they did it, and your solution would be a huge improvement. The whole memory loss shouldnt have happened either though, just end it there, have the lifeless body fall back (do it all soft and dramatic like as well) then have the whole crew run up the school stairs with aigis already up there first, tada, less contrived
Yeah well
everyone watches him die on the roof
King Gilgamesh
Banned
"Oh no, senpai, you're
moving back to Tokyo which is like an hour away and could feasibly visit every weekend!
Well, it's not like what you're saying isn't true, but I still disagree.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Funny thing about P3's theme. The whole "Time never waits, it delivers us all to the same end" thing...
Though to be fair, FES fixed that with
Such theme.
EDIT:
To be fair, Rise is that kind of girl. (Which reminds me, is
)
Fair enough, though that line is prominently featured in advertising and the intro. Pharos' line is in the game itself (and one of the first lines at that).
Is "Memento Mori" said during P3 itself? I've only played through FES once, so I may have missed it.
Nobody in P3 dies of natural causes, it's either gunshot, shadow exploding out of a dude's face, sending their life essence/soul into something/someone else, suicide by grenade, or terminal illness.
the offscreen death of an old cat in Aigis' s-link.
EDIT:
To be fair, Rise is that kind of girl. (Which reminds me, is
Yu's destination ever specified, or is it just assumed to be Tokyo?
Fair enough, though that line is prominently featured in advertising and the intro. Pharos' line is in the game itself (and one of the first lines at that).
Is "Memento Mori" said during P3 itself? I've only played through FES once, so I may have missed it.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
This is a bit of a nitpick, but I'd argue that P3's theme is more along the lines of "Memento Mori" or "remember you will die" than anything about the time it takes to get to that end.
BRSxIgnition
Member
A Dead Diehard
Member
King Gilgamesh
Banned
Sure.For Marie.
Marieshipping? Is that a thing?
It's that and Carpe Diem. you're going to die so do something meaningful and important with your time. Forge connections with the people around you because they won't be there forever. That sort of thing.
Or go to your room and sleep. You have that option too.
How is that a decent compromise? The original ending is absolutely fine as is. Your version is abrupt and standard.
Geez... you completely misinterpreted P3's theme.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I meant "decent" as in it didn't immediately cause a bad reaction. Guess I spoke too soon.
Also how is it abrupt? It ends at exactly the same point.
Though I will admit standard.
No, I poked holes in a key line that was supposed to represent the theme.
I'm well aware dead is dead.
Modest Mauser
Member
Speaking of, is The Answer worth going back and playing? I never got around to it initially.
KenjiGlove
Banned
You could just watch everything on youtube if you're interested in the story but it's up to you.
You would be wrong then, because I'm pretty sure Persona 3's ending is widely regarded as one of the best in the franchise. Only a minority of people actively dislike it. Your version of the ending... is a serious downgrade man. Like, there's no ambition. No emotional punch.
No interaction from the player. No unease from reading the text (the "you feel tired" messages are seriously freaky and effective at unnerving the player). There's a sense of progression in the original ending where you slowly start to feel that there's something wrong with the protagonist, culminating with that final scene with Aigis. The final shot is one of the most powerful moments in the game, because the minute you realize the protagonist, your avatar (who you've grown attached to over the 60+ hours of game time) dies, it feels like a part of you died as well. There's none of that in your ending. It's abrupt because the MC dies from the get go and you're left with watching the ending predictably play out.
It's just basic.
It's just basic.
You picked a game over line, took that as a representation of P3's theme, then found a bunch of examples that didn't exactly correlate with the theme you picked (but in actuality were completely inline with P3's actual theme ) and then tried to poke fun at P3 for not representing it. There's no 2 ways about it; you were completely off base.
King Gilgamesh
Banned
Do you like P3's dungeon crawling? If you don't, just look it up on Youtube, it's a real chore to play.
Technically the "Time never waits" line is from the game's opening. The game over quote is something else. Never the less, A Dead Diehard's interpretation of said line is overly literal for the sake of literalness.
The line isn't about death by old age/natural causes, rather it's about the inevitability of death for living begins. "It matters not who you are, death awaits you" and all that. In this sense, every single example listed relates to it.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
I really liked The Answer, so I'd say definitely. It really depends on how much you like FES dungeon crawling though, because that's all it is. You could honestly just watch it on Youtube like others have suggested though, and not miss out on too much.
It does have my favourite version of Mass Destruction too.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
if it actually did that then maybe, but all it did is made me laugh it the amount of narrative hoops they jumped through to try and get to that point
They didn't really jump through too many narrative hopes, especially in regards to
everyone losing their memories. The explicitly state that normal people don't remember the Dark Hour, so why should anyone remember it after the flow of time has been returned to normal? That being said, the contradiction in the P3's casts memories gave them their memories back, because paradoxes cannot occur in the Persona franchise and MUST be corrected immediately (See: Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, which is all about this.)
They could have possibly explained one or two minor details, but the narrative of P3's ending is pretty tight, especially compared to Persona 4's ending narrative which Flux has gone over extensively and I don't feel the need to repeat (also I'm biased towards Persona 3 and would rather talk about that anyhow!)
P3's ending is alright on paper but the whole
just feels forced. It could've been improved by ending closer to the final boss, which is properly built up to and incredibly well done.
in P4 is feels shoe-horned in to a degree, but the rest of the ending makes up for it.
"everyone loses their memories and gets them back because reasons"
Izanami
ShadowSoldier89
Member
get the exact opposite feeling by a wide margin, there was nothing tight about P3, and P4 made perfect sense while being hidden
I mean, you can believe what you want to. But you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone of your feelings on the subject. Especially when....
... a lot of this was explained in the game.
The memory loss I already explained in my previous post. The protagonist's soul was not in two spots, he was merely hanging on with his remaining life to honor the graduation promise they had made. He did not die "three months ago", he died on the rooftop. Likewise, the events of The Answer make it abundantly clear that the rest of the cast had no say in his sacrifice. Which is why they're so beaten up over it at the beginning.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
the memory loss is explained poorly and still doesn't make perfect sense, just because the dark hour doesnt exist anymore doesnt logically immediately affect their memories of it. Why is the dark hour tied to memories at all? it was only tied to being aware of it as it was happening. P3P sortve ties it to memories with the people lost in it but thats about it. the bolded is just the most contrived thing ever, Some weird excuse to how his body and mind was hanging around without his soul, it was poorly thought out as a way and force the ending scene on the roof