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[Rykan]

I bought a high end OLED in 2018 and have played many great games in 30 fps, including TLOU2

What are you babbling on about?

Games that run at low framerates look terrible on an OLED TV because of the fast pixel response times, and because it doesn't blur frames as much. Just google low framerate or 30 FPS and OLED. You'll find loads of examples and explanations.

If you purchased an OLED TV with the intention to play games at a low framerate...you're doing it wrong.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

I would tell you, I didn't buy this high end TV:

To play at a measly 1440p in 2023. Drop that damn framerate.

But did you buy the OLED to play in 30fps judder-fest motion due to the OLED's instant response time ?

This has got nothing to do with Starfield or 30fps games, it has to do with 30fps in general on an OLED.
LED TVs are OK for 30fps, OLED ones are most definitely not...

 

[Negotiator101]

What ambition? He says it's a creative choice not related to hardware limitations, so it means it's not ambitious enough.
Or is Phil Spencer lying? He would never do that, would he?

The creative decision is designed around its ambition, it is only 30fps because of that. Not only are doing a simulated galaxy, where evey choice has ramifications across all planets not just one. They are also doing procedurally generated environments in conjunction with hand crafted environments to create something no other developer has done (as far as I'm aware?). I don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes with its simulation but I'd wager no game is doing anything deeper than Starfield, we will see.

 

[Melfice7]

Is there any time this guy open his mouth and explosive diarrhea doesnt come out?

 

[Bernardougf]

What? It looks good not incredible wtf are you guys smoking?

Copium for 20 years... it affects your mind bro

 

[Bernardougf]

This nonsense again.

Yea you guys just keep consistently miss the point. No surprises here.

30fps on consoles is the sweet spot for devs because it allows them to deliver the most well rounded experience.

You get sharper resolution, better graphics, more NPC's on screen, and just LESS COMPROMISES overall in your game design and philosophy. There is a reason so many single player games run at 30fps on consoles. Because there are far less compromises. End of story.

To the devs, that made sense. Now y'all can buy a PC, wait for a @MidGenRefresh or keep crying about it.

But stop forcing these devs to cut back on everything else in their game just to hit a number.

It's stupid.

If thats the case I sure hope that the PC version comes only with high/ultra assets... because turning on low/medium settings at 1080 would just compromise the "creative vision"

 

[Three]

If the intention was to avoid having a mode with massive cut-backs to reach 60, then yes of course it's a creative choice.


30 FPS:

60 FPS:

Games on xbox Series S confirmed to be "creatively bankrupt" in comparison.

 

[Razvedka]

Maybe already covered but I thought gamebryo/creation engine tied physics calculations to frame rate? Could be part of the issue. I remember things got weird in Skyrim and FO4 at higher FPS, at least initially.

 

[aliadiere25]

It's probably down to Bethesda. It's probably really unplayable at 60fps. Now... it will be slightly playable at 30fps at launch.

 

[NickFire]

Everything that has to run on a series S is practically crossgen...

And I would take a bet that this is the real problem ... nothing to do with "creative choices"

They have no creative objection to lower resolution on the S. But won't give the option for S resolution at 60 FPS on the X.

Seems clear as day. They don't want 60 FPS on X but not on S IMO.

 

[Ar¢tos]

The creative decision is designed around its ambition, it is only 30fps because of that. Not only are doing a simulated galaxy, where evey choice has ramifications across all planets not just one. They are also doing procedurally generated environments in conjunction with hand crafted environments to create something no other developer has done (as far as I'm aware?). I don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes with its simulation but I'd wager no game is doing anything deeper than Starfield, we will see.

You know how many times we heard those promises before....
"See that mountain? You can go there!"
If what happens in another planet has impact on the framerate of what is being rendered on the screen on another planet, that is bad design, not a creative choice.

 

[Bernardougf]

I would tell you, I didn't buy this high end TV:

To play at a measly 1440p in 2023. Drop that damn framerate.

30 fps is very very shitty on oled... even 40 fps is

 

[Helghan]

Well so they should enforce their vision on PC and force the minimum assets they want players to change in the graphics menu to achieve better fps ... lets wait and see they do that since their vision is soooo important

I expect that to happen, but at the same time they'll let modders do whatever they want with the game.

 

[Bernardougf]

I expect that to happen, but at the same time they'll let modders do whatever they want with the game.

Mate this wont happen .. just look at the series S images... they will let people scale the fuck down on pc as always .. and play at whatever fps and settings they like .. creative vision be dammed.. the problem is not the 30 fps game (it is but thats another topic) the problem is the fake liar PR as usual ... we got sick of that shit outside the freePr/fanboy defense force

 

[Kumomeme]

Xbox head Phil Spencer wants unprecedented frame rates on Xbox Series X

120 FPS or nothing!

www.windowscentral.com

 

[adamsapple]

Yeah .. nothing more fun in a game than pausing and counting shruberries ... the knights who say Ni would be so proud

that's just one example, there's a whole topic and multiple videos about the things that had to be reduced for the performance mode.


-

 

[knguyen]

"As we were looking at the future, the feel of the games was definitely something that we wanted to have more focus on, not just throwing more pixels up on the screen." - Phil Spencer

 

[BabyfaceRe]

Statements like this are so unbelievably frustrating because they are completely disingenuous.

Under that logic, if they could lock the framrate at 60fps they would as consistency is the key (something I 100% agree with, always choose locked over variable framrate even if its 30, personally. But I have functional eyes where 30fps looks good and not like a slideshow) yet it's not. Why is that Phil? You can have consistency at 60 fps too cant you? Wait you can't? Sounds like a, wait for it....... hardware issue.

Enough with this stupid shit. More spon in gaming than there is in politics these days.

 

[Boss Mog]

I'm hoping that on the next gen, with the next gen FSR enabled, 30fps games will be non-existent

 

[H4ze]

The features that Microsoft advertised when they were selling console, like 60 FPS standard.

And you believed it without a single grain of salt? Lmao, shit's on you man

 

[Thirty7ven]

Games that run at low framerates look terrible on an OLED TV because of the fast pixel response times, and because it doesn't blur frames as much. Just google low framerate or 30 FPS and OLED. You'll find loads of examples and explanations.

If you purchased an OLED TV with the intention to play games at a low framerate...you're doing it wrong.

I have a S95B and 30FPS games don't look terrible at all. Playing FF16/DeadSpace at 30fps right now and it looks and feels great. I really don't understand what you are saying here, and I don't need youtube to tell me why I'm wrong because I've been playing games for over 30 years across every single type of display technology so my eyes are more than enough.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

that's just one example, there's a whole topic and multiple videos about the things that had to be reduced for the performance mode.


-

Wonder what they could have done with a pro console

 

[kuncol02]

Maybe already covered but I thought gamebryo/creation engine tied physics calculations to frame rate? Could be part of the issue. I remember things got weird in Skyrim and FO4 at higher FPS, at least initially.

Starfield has totally new physics engine.

 

[adamsapple]

Wonder what they could have done with a pro console

 

[rodrigolfp]

20fps is divisible through 60hz and therefore works perfectly on any TV just like 30fps.

15 fps too. Or 10, like Shadow of the Colossus loves to run at.

 

[nkarafo]

Frame rate is ALWAYS a creative choice for fixed hardware, console games.

It's only a hardware issue on PC games.

 

[Tomofdahook17]

Shades of The Order 1886.

That cinematic feel.

The fact they got that running on a base PS4 is still impressive to me. Just blow that we'll never see it patched to 1440p/4K, 60fps.

 

[Karppuuna]

PS5 and X CPU is too weak for 60fps in those big games.

 

[Heisenberg007]

And you believed it without a single grain of salt? Lmao, shit's on you man

Ohhh, got it. So the people advertising their product falsely and making false promises were right, and the people who bought a product based on those promises were wrong!

 

[Victor Omega]

I just built my first pc with this game in mind. What am I suppose to do with all this 165hz monitors with free sync?

 

[Heisenberg007]

But you get 60 fps standard* **!

*Post release patches might be required, no time-frame for said patches, please take a seat and wait.
** Patches might come from unofficial sources, install at your own risk.
*** Fuck you, suckers!

FTFY

 

[nkarafo]

people that defend 30fps have an arbitrary line they drew, just like the people like me, that think 60fps should become industry wide standard...

Actually no, 60fps is not at all an arbitrary number because it was always the maximum refresh rate displays would use. And it's still the refresh rate limit on most monitors/TVs today.

So, 60fps was/is the frame rate that makes the most use of what your average TVs/monitors can do.

That's why most games were 60fps before 3D games took over. Any console from the Atari 2600 to the 16bit consoles had 60fps as the standard. 30fps 2D scrolling games looked like shit at the time and stuck out. It's only because the early 3D hardware (PSX/SAT/N64) wasn't powerful enough to drive those textured polygons at 60fps that they went half of that but 3D had different/lower standards anyway so 30fps was still better than what you had before.

30fps isn't arbitrary either btw, it's the highest fps that can sync properly on a 60hz display, other than 60fps. You can't do, say, 45 fps because it can't sync properly. Your choices are 60, 30, 20, 15, 10, 5...

Nowadays though there is no reason for games to not run at 60fps. You can have beautiful 3D games at 60fps since the Dreamcast. But nah, average joe gamer wants the "maximum eye candy", whatever that means, even though they couldn't tell the difference if a game was targeting 60fps from the beginning. Like how games like Metroid Prime and F-Zero GX were some of the best looking GC games and nobody ever said "i wish those games were 30fps so they can look better" and there weren't any 30fps versions to compare anyway.

 

[Gudji]

Wonder what they could have done with a pro console

8K 30 FPS?

 

[Portugeezer]

What a polite bitch smack to that dreamcast cunt.

 

[Represent.]

Yeah im not seeing a clear jump over forbidden west/burning shores here...

It looks worse. Straight up.

LOL you purchased an OLED TV to play games at 30 FPS? Now that's hilarious.

I bought a High End OLED TV to experience the BEST possible IMAGE QUALITY. Which is what 30fps provides. Fact.

I have a LG C1. 30fps on it looks like a juddery mess. Its gross and unacceptable.

cannot relate. I just dont know what you guys are talking about when it comes to "juddery". My experience has never been that.

But did you buy the OLED to play in 30fps judder-fest motion due to the OLED's instant response time ?

This has got nothing to do with Starfield or 30fps games, it has to do with 30fps in general on an OLED.
LED TVs are OK for 30fps, OLED ones are most definitely not...

Its not juddery, at all. Smooth as hell and just simply looks better due to higher resolutions and added fidelity.

30 fps is very very shitty on oled... even 40 fps is

Nonsense. I have been playing 30fps on OLED for years and never once experienced this "shittiness" everyone speaks of.

that's just one example, there's a whole topic and multiple videos about the things that had to be reduced for the performance mode.


-

This should really end all the nonsensical debates.

People, 60fps at this scale would equal an ugly ass game with everything scaled back. How do so many people not understand such simple logic? Its not rocket science.

Devs don't want to release an ugly fucking game with everything they aim to do having to be scaled back significantly.

Like how does that not make sense? Are people purposely being slow?

 

[mejin]

He can't stop lying lol

See you at next "E3", Phil.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

that's just one example, there's a whole topic and multiple videos about the things that had to be reduced for the performance mode.


-

FakeSEGAFanGuy is the worst.

 

[nkarafo]

cannot relate. I just dont know what you guys are talking about when it comes to "juddery". My experience has never been that.

Its not juddery, at all. Smooth as hell and just simply looks better due to higher resolutions and added fidelity.

30fps is juddery in most games, that's a fact. You can clearly see the gaps between each frame, everyone with functional eyes can. They are just about long enough to see them. Sure, your brain can adjust and those gaps will stop being noticeable after a while, if you don't try to see them. That's how brains work, they tend to ignore things after a while when you focus on other things. But it's there, that's a fact, not a random opinion.

At 60fps those gaps are cut in half and in most cases the human eye can't see them anymore, even if you try. So it's not juddery. Though, even 60fps can be juddery in some extreme cases. I have a 240hz display and play pinball games at 120fps. At 60fps the ball is clearly juddery when it travels fast. To the point where the gaps are so big, your peripheral vision momentarily loses the ball. You need 120fps+ to clean it up and make it look natural and smooth. Good old DOOM on a modern engine is also juddery to me at 60fps. The game moves much faster than your average FPS so 120fps is the minimum for me to clear the gaps between frames and make the motion look natural. But other than that, in most cases it's almost impossible to see the gaps between 60fps, on a 60hz display.

So yeah, it depends on the game and how fast certain elements travel on screen, but in most games 30fps does reveal the judder so it's juddery.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Then make the creative choice to have a 40fps/120hz mode, even if it's somewhere between 1080p and 1440p.


If we really are going to stop seeing 60fps modes for big games this gen then goddamn it devs, at least prioritize a 40fps mode. Both of the consoles support 120hz output for a reason.

 

[BrutalTruth_]

Games that run at low framerates look terrible on an OLED TV because of the fast pixel response times, and because it doesn't blur frames as much. Just google low framerate or 30 FPS and OLED. You'll find loads of examples and explanations.

If you purchased an OLED TV with the intention to play games at a low framerate...you're doing it wrong.

Yeah, playing the best game last gen on an OLED is doing it wrong..

What an idiotic argument, I know you're shit posting now.

 

[01011001]

I bought a High End OLED TV to experience the BEST possible IMAGE QUALITY. Which is what 30fps provides. Fact.

I present to you 30fps in a modern game:

amazing image quality!

 

[MikeM]

It looks worse. Straight up.

I bought a High End OLED TV to experience the BEST possible IMAGE QUALITY. Which is what 30fps provides. Fact.

cannot relate. I just dont know what you guys are talking about when it comes to "juddery". My experience has never been that.

Its not juddery, at all. Smooth as hell and just simply looks better due to higher resolutions and added fidelity.

Nonsense. I have been playing 30fps on OLED for years and never once experienced this "shittiness" everyone speaks of.

This should really end all the nonsensical debates.

People, 60fps at this scale would equal an ugly ass game with everything scaled back. How do so many people not understand such simple logic? Its not rocket science.

Devs don't want to release an ugly fucking game with everything they aim to do having to be scaled back significantly.

Like how does that not make sense? Are people purposely being slow?

You make it seem like going from 30fps to 60fps makes image quality go from the equivalent of ultra to low. Thats not what happens.

If your eyeballs don't notice it, then good for you. Mine, and a lot of others, sure do.

 

[Represent.]

I present to you 30fps in a modern game:

amazing image quality!

What the actual hell are you talking about?

I present to you.

ACTUAL 30fps gameplay.



oh my god, its so blurry, how can one manage to see anything?

Bro, what?

And before you come at me with "oh my god the camera pan is so slow" (As I know you will)

 

[Sophist]

Sluggishness doesn't come from the FPS but from the realistic animations. 90's games running at 21 fps felt more responsive because the player input had an instant effect on the game but the animations were cut in the middle.
To have realistic animations, you have to buffer the player input to run some analysis on it and do more interpolation between animations.

 

[01011001]

What the actual hell are you talking about?

I present to you.

ACTUAL 30fps gameplay.



oh my god, its so blurry, how can one manage to see anything?

Bro, what?

And before you come at me with "oh my god the camera pan is so slow" (As I know you will)

now post one where someone actually TURNS the camera like a normal person and not like a wannabe film maker

 

[Represent.]

now post one where someone actually TURNS the camera like a normal person and not like a wannabe film maker

Ok.



so bLuRrY

You all need glasses.

 

[FoxMcChief]

I'm glad Bethesda doesn't want to sacrifice their visuals just for 60 fps. I wish more devs did this. I just finished Dead Space on the PS5 and its quality mode's lighting was way better. It set the mood better for each room.

 

[01011001]

Ok.



so bLuRrY

You all need glasses.

snip snap, here's a screenshot of this super clean image quality:

 

[Success]

They are holding back the true power

Greenberg is like some rap battle hype man.

 

[R6Rider]

Interested to see how it performs on various GPU and CPU setups for PC.

Also, glad I don't have and OLED in cases like this.