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[EndcatOmega]

I don't see how they're not relevant. Are you saying that the modern fantasy depiction of dwarves in LotR and D&D are somehow extremely different from how they were depicted in the Ring Cycle? That predates LotR significantly. Seriously...

Well there's the bizarre D&D-inspired trope that Dwarves don't do magic...

 

[Hargenx]

I'm having a hard time even imagining playing a solo character in a game like BG2. Well for me at least, my character was a pure mage (made the most sense for me given the Candlekeep origins). If I had to play that solo, I think I'd be stuck flinging Melf's Minute Meteors at Adamantium Golems (with immunity to a lot of magic and weapons without very high enchantment levels) while kiting for at least half an hour :\

As I said before, sorcerer all the way friend...

But you gonna lost LOT of fun, is more for challenger, use the right magic before enter in a run, use the right magic after enter in a room, all this kind of stuff, that ruin the immersion, but if you play as a lunatic that broke the fourth wall and know everything, is alright! lol

 

[WanderingWind]

The base point is that the writers of a new fantasy world are limited only by their imaginations. If they fall back on the Tolkien archetypes, it would be a little disappointing. You can still write great stories off those characteristics, but there is an infinite world of possibilities that could be tapped, rather than going back to the same drying well.

 

[The Technomancer]

No, your point was that Tolkien "created" the races. Your words, not mine. That is ignorant and wrong.

I used the word created once and backed off from it immedietly in subsequent posts when I realized it wasn't capturing what I meant. The important part wasn't who "created" them but that many if not most current depictions of them have a very traceable line inspired of lineage and that they are now very common tropes in many kinds of fantasy media.

 

[dude]

In the Ring Cycle, the dwarves are a short race enslaved by one of their own, Alberich, who forged the great ring. His brother Mime is a great smith who forges the various magical equipment in the story.

My God! That sounds NOTHING like the characterization and culture of dwarves in LotR and D&D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, maybe dwarves have strayed less from their literary originators than others, but I'm pretty sure they didn't have an Irish accent or an hatered for Goblins, Orcs and Giants.

Elves, on the other hand... Well, as Wikipedia puts it:

Modern fantasy literature has revived the elves as a race of semi-divine beings of human stature who are friendly with nature and animals. Although the álfar of Norse mythology has influenced the concept of elves in fantasy, the elves are different from Norse and the traditional elves found in middle ages folklore and Victorian era literature.

The pointy ears were also completly made up by Tolkien, for example.

I don't understand the big deal, these races are clearly a modern invention compiled of older stpries and legends. I'm unsure why this is of any importance.

both of you have a point

meaning, i believe they should take the cliche races and put such twists on them

but also include new races with unique characteristics that we rarely or ever see.

win win

Yeah, I actually was just about to add that it's not that I hate new races or think there's no place for new ones - I just think that using known and built upon races has many advantages, and people are way to eager to populare their world with a freak shows when there's still much to discover. When I build a campaign setting for D&D, I start with what I know my players expect and then build from there - Sometimes I go crazy and do nothing as they expect, but those tend to be the more boring games, when I face them with an Orc that turns out to be some eldritch nightmare, that's when things are interesting.

 

[Zeliard]

I don't think that should be much of a concern here. These guys are fond of subverting genre tropes.

 

[speedpop]

The base point is that the writers of a new fantasy world are limited only by their imaginations. If they fall back on the Tolkien archetypes, it would be a little disappointing. You can still write great stories off those characteristics, but there is an infinite world of possibilities that could be tapped, rather than going back to the same drying well.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but a lot of the time many writers don't want to delve in to creating an entirely new set of cultures, a new language and the linguistics involved, let alone everything else tied to it because the only form of life that we know of exists on our planet.

Then there is the problem of audience familiarity.

 

[The Technomancer]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but a lot of the time many writers don't want to delve in to creating an entirely new set of cultures, a new language and the linguistics involved, let alone everything else tied to it because the only form of life that we know of exists on our planet.

Then there is the problem of audience familiarity.

I think part of the problem is that two of my favorite RPG series use worlds with completely original races and mostly original cultures, and that's part of why I like them so much.

 

[WanderingWind]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but a lot of the time many writers don't want to delve in to creating an entirely new set of cultures, a new language and the linguistics involved, let alone everything else tied to it because the only form of life that we know of exists on our planet.

Then there is the problem of audience familiarity.

True, but if Mass Effect showed us anything, it's that that is something that is greatly over-exaggerated. People loved the non-human races in there, and even if the last entry tried to shy away from the non-human races, it's not as if the Asari, Elcor and Hanar weren't the most talked about races in the game. And ME is about as dudebro as an RPG can get.

You can make races recognizable as sentient beings without just Xeroxing Tolkien's worlds ad nauseum.

 

[Sharp]

True, but if Mass Effect showed us anything, it's that that is something that is greatly over-exaggerated. People loved the non-human races in there, and even if the last entry tried to shy away from the non-human races, it's not as if the Asari, Elcor and Hanar weren't the most talked about races in the game. And ME is about as dudebro as an RPG can get.

You can make races recognizable as sentient beings without just Xeroxing Tolkien's worlds ad nauseum.

While I basically agree with you, I feel it's worth pointing out that there isn't an established lore for sci fi in the same way there is for fantasy. Like, even the most recognizable non-human sci fi races are associated with their particular series or brand, they're not generically available archetypes (Borg is the example that popped into my head). So if you want other races you kind of have to make your own. I think it's a pretty different situation.

 

[dude]

True, but if Mass Effect showed us anything, it's that that is something that is greatly over-exaggerated. People loved the non-human races in there, and even if the last entry tried to shy away from the non-human races, it's not as if the Asari, Elcor and Hanar weren't the most talked about races in the game. And ME is about as dudebro as an RPG can get.

You can make races recognizable as sentient beings without just Xeroxing Tolkien's worlds ad nauseum.

Asari are (purple)Green-Skinned Space Babes through and through (although with a cute subversion). ME just builds upon a different set of tropes.

When it comes to fantasy worlds, you can go splurge all over the races and create total freak shows, but the players wouldn't care about them too much because of that. The player knows elves, he can connect with them, he can understand them. It is very, very clear why people still, in you words "xerox Tolkien's worlds", it's a literary tool that serves them well. This noble quest for the ultimate originality is moot, and I much rather have a world I can find my toes in than one I need to read 100 pages before I can set a foot in it. It worked in Planescape because the whole game was built around the wackiness of the world around you.

 

[WanderingWind]

Asari are Blue Space Babes through and through (although with a cute subversion). ME just builds upon a different set of tropes.

When it comes to fantasy worlds, you can go splurge all over the races and create total freak shows, but the players wouldn't care about them too much because of that. The player knows elves, he can connect with them, he can understand them. It is very, very clear why people still, in you words "xerox Tolkien's worlds", it's a literary tool that serves them well.

Well, now you're moving from archetypes to tropes. There is a trope for everything and they're always pervasive. Archetypes are wide spread too, but there are certain ones more used in fantasy worlds (Tolkien).

And I don't accept that players can't connect with archetypes they haven't encountered before. Maybe harder? Certainly not enough to affect anything sales or popularity wise, as we've established. We didn't pop from the womb knowing elves and dwarves and whatnot. That also doesn't change based on the murky line we've drawn between subsects of fictions. "Fantasy" or "sci-fi" is the same thing in a different setting. The complete unknown is open for interpretation and limited only by imagination.

 

[The Technomancer]

If the elves in Eternity are mischievous forest sprites or literal tree spirits with flesh of wood then I'll take it all back, I promise.

 

[Lancehead]

It's not a problem if these "elves" and "dwarves" do the exact same things as the Tolkien stereotypes do. Because what's important is to know why they do such things in the world they're living in and if what they do makes sense. So that it allows us to sympathise with the characters' actions. As long as Obsidian make the "why" interesting, it really doesn't matter if they're using a stereotypical elf or dwarf.

in this thread I have learned that excitement at the talent contributing to a project is bad, that reading is obsolete and lame, and that the term larping is being misused all over the place.

Better leave this thread if you value your sanity.

 

[dude]

Well, now you're moving from archetypes to tropes. There is a trope for everything and they're always pervasive. Archetypes are wide spread too, but there are certain ones more used in fantasy worlds (Tolkien).

And I don't accept that players can't connect with archetypes they haven't encountered before. Maybe harder? Certainly not enough to affect anything sales or popularity wise, as we've established. We didn't pop from the womb knowing elves and dwarves and whatnot. That also doesn't change based on the murky line we've drawn between subsects of fictions. "Fantasy" or "sci-fi" is the same thing in a different setting. The complete unknown is open for interpretation and limited only by imagination.

I'm not saying they can't connect, I'm saying you're making them connect mid-game. Elves they've seen before - sometimes, somewhere, they're practically everywhere. They've not seen Gazaryas though, because I just made those up. Now, when you encounter one in the game it's a big deal, because the player doesn't know it, he might know what to expect if you told him, but he'll never entirley know. It's a feeling you're invoking, and it's not something to be taken lightly. If you're world is built around that, like Planescape, great - But consider that Planescape is supposed to be weird, you're supposed to now know anything and you're supposed to feel lost. This is not something you want to invoke in all worlds all the time. Using the established fantasy races gives you the power to make the "ordinary extra-ordinaty", that wonderful feeling of a fantasy world you feel at hom in. Now, a world that's entirley known is boring, but a world that is entirley unknown is confusing, or scary. The gold is how you mix them.
Dark Sun, to continue my example, does it beautifully by taking the known, a normal fantasy world, destroying it, letting everyone get accustomed to their new surroundings and letting you play in this new world that was once a world you knew. BG2 does it beautifully too, with taking a world you know and filling it with deep and interesting characters that make use of what you think you know of them. PS:T does it by playing almost entirley on the fact you don't know anything, to the point that you're an amnesiac.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah, I'm definitely seeing the areas where we differ in what we want from an RPG. I don't particularly want to feel "at home" in a world. I think this point has come up in the past involving my taste in RPGs as well.

 

[dude]

Yeah, I'm definitely seeing the areas where we differ in what we want from an RPG. I don't particularly want to feel "at home" in a world. I think this point has come up in the past involving my taste in RPGs as well.

Not feeling at home is something that works only for a particular type of stories (like one involving a myster or horror stories) and can get old pretty quick. It worked in PS:T, but I wouldn't want this project to necessarily follow that path. There's something nice about imagining your character as someone who knows his way around rather than an amnesiac or an outsider. Not that I don't like these kinds of games, I just don't dismiss the value of other aproaches.

 

[WanderingWind]

I'm not saying they can't connect, I'm saying you're making them connect mid-game. Elves they've seen before - sometimes, somewhere, they're practically everywhere. They've not seen Gazaryas though, because I just made those up. Now, when you encounter one in the game it's a big deal, because the player doesn't know it, he might know what to expect if you told him, but he'll never entirley know. It's a feeling you're invoking, and it's not something to be taken lightly. If you're world is built around that, like Planescape, great - But consider that Planescape is supposed to be weird, you're supposed to now know anything and you're supposed to feel lost. This is not something you want to invoke in all worlds all the time. Using the established fantasy races gives you the power to make the "ordinary extra-ordinaty", that wonderful feeling of a fantasy world you feel at hom in. Now, a world that's entirley known is boring, but a world that is entirley unknown is confusing, or scary. The gold is how you mix them.

Yeah, but designing fantasy worlds based on this mindset is what leads to the same crap being recycled over and over again. Sure, it's not going to be familiar right away. But plenty of movies, books and other games have used this device to great effect. Not every game needs to, sure. But not every game needs to be LOTR 2: Electric Boogaloo. And yet, an overwhelming amount of archetypes in fantasy are the same ones Tolkien established.

There is another side to the familiarity you talk about - boredom and fatigue. That sense of "been there, done that" can be ESPECIALLY dangerous to a new brand. This is why so much money is dumped into research to find the middle ground between unfamiliar, and overworn. Either side is bad when establishing a new...well, anything. It's not other people's work you want them always comparing your new property to (especially if there are avenues for them to spend money on those things instead of yours) and you don't want to Jabberwocky your property either - that is make it nonsensical and gibberish.

 

[The Technomancer]

Not feeling at home is something that works only for a particular type of stories (like one involving a myster or horror stories) and can get old pretty quick. It worked in PS:T, but I wouldn't want this project to necessarily follow that path. There's something nice about imagining your character as someone who knows his way around rather than an amnesiac or an outsider. Not that I don't like these kinds of games, I just don't dismiss the value of other aproaches.

I dunno, my favorite RPG setting is an all-human world in which the dominant power structure is based around magical genetic manipulation to create organic technology, with everything from the doors to the weapons incorporating biology, including a sentient slave-race. Its a very alien-feeling world, and yet the writing carries my characters familiarity with it, so that I don't feel too detatched from what's going on.

 

[EndcatOmega]

I dunno, my favorite RPG setting is an all-human world in which the dominant power structure is based around magical genetic manipulation to create organic technology, with everything from the doors to the weapons incorporating biology, including a sentient slave-race. Its a very alien-feeling world, and yet the writing carries my characters familiarity with it, so that I don't feel too detatched from what's going on.

Takers, Awakened, or Obeyers?

 

[dude]

Yeah, but designing fantasy worlds based on this mindset is what leads to the same crap being recycled over and over again. Sure, it's not going to be familiar right away. But plenty of movies, books and other games have used this device to great effect. Not every game needs to, sure. But not every game needs to be LOTR 2: Electric Boogaloo. And yet, an overwhelming amount of archetypes in fantasy are the same ones Tolkien established.

There is another side to the familiarity you talk about - boredom and fatigue. That sense of "been there, done that" can be ESPECIALLY dangerous to a new brand. This is why so much money is dumped into research to find the middle ground between unfamiliar, and overworn. Either side is bad when establishing a new...well, anything. It's not other people's work you want them always comparing your new property to (especially if there are avenues for them to spend money on those things instead of yours) and you don't want to Jabberwocky your property either - that is make it nonsensical and gibberish.

Well, I'm not saying the game should play all it's archtypes straight. I'm just saying it doesn't have to have silicon people and races with tongue twisting names to be interesting or new. As long as you strike the right balance between the known and the unknown. So far I see great promise in this new setting, in light of the more information we have now and that I trust the talent behind it. I don't see why people are dismissing it for including elves and such, as I said, there are many interesting things to do with elves.

I dunno, my favorite RPG setting is an all-human world in which the dominant power structure is based around magical genetic manipulation to create organic technology, with everything from the doors to the weapons incorporating biology, including a sentient slave-race. Its a very alien-feeling world, and yet the writing carries my characters familiarity with it, so that I don't feel too detatched from what's going on.

I didn't play Geneforge, one of my many faults, but I assume the game style must be very different to afford this. The story must, at first at least, be much more closelt followed than games like BG2 where they can just throw you at the world and let you play, for example.

 

[WanderingWind]

Well, I'm not saying the game should play all it's archtypes straight. I'm just saying it doesn't have to have silicon people and races with tongue twisting names to be interesting or new. As long as you strike the right balance between the known and the unknown. So far I see great promise in this new setting, in light of the more information we have now and that I trust the talent behind it. I don't see why people are dismissing it for including elves and such, as I said, there are many interesting things to do with elves.

Expectations, mostly. You're never going to please everybody. Ever.

 

[The Technomancer]

Takers, Awakened, or Obeyers?

Awakened the first time, Obeyers the second, first time I was the nice "oh me oh my I have become enlightened" mood, second time I was far to concerned with my own schemes to seize power to be concerned with the servilles.

I didn't play Geneforge, one of my many faults, but I assume the game style must be very different to afford this. The story must, at first at least, be much more closelt followed than games like BG2 where they can just throw you at the world and let you play, for example.

Mmmm, not really. The Geneforge games have pretty loose stories actually, especially the first (and best) game

 

[HoosTrax]

Obsidian Entertainment says:

Hi HoosTrax,

It is going to be much more like BG2 and our hope is that as we get more funding that we will be able to continue to expand the house into a Stronghold. The way Josh said it this morning was to think of the house like the The Sink in Old World Blues.

Thanks for the support!

-Feargus

Just got this e-mail.

 

[EndcatOmega]

I didn't play Geneforge, one of my many faults, but I assume the game style must be very different to afford this. The story must, at first at least, be much more closelt followed than games like BG2 where they can just throw you at the world and let you play, for example.

It's actually less linear than BG2- there's very few, if any story events necessary to open areas.

 

[Nameless One]

It just feels....so....specific, so tied to known cultural associations, uhhh, I really don't know how else to put it. Words frame how we think about things. Even if they're completely creative elves, like desert bandits or whatever then they're going to have the associations in our minds to previous properties and that's not what I personally want. That's all I can say.

I do not disagree at all.

I really wish it was a game with completely new races that have features completely different than elves and dwarves.

And classes like wind caller or chaosmancer, with fresh skills and spells.

But I still have hope that they will add some unique stuff DESPITE the usual ones.

Well, if they do not..then we still have to see how they are going to spin it, perhaps it will be more interesting and fresh than we expect.

I believe it should have both.

Well, maybe dwarves have strayed less from their literary originators than others, but I'm pretty sure they didn't have an Irish accent or an hatered for Goblins, Orcs and Giants.

Elves, on the other hand... Well, as Wikipedia puts it:


The pointy ears were also completly made up by Tolkien, for example.

I don't understand the big deal, these races are clearly a modern invention compiled of older stpries and legends. I'm unsure why this is of any importance.


Yeah, I actually was just about to add that it's not that I hate new races or think there's no place for new ones - I just think that using known and built upon races has many advantages, and people are way to eager to populare their world with a freak shows when there's still much to discover. When I build a campaign setting for D&D, I start with what I know my players expect and then build from there - Sometimes I go crazy and do nothing as they expect, but those tend to be the more boring games, when I face them with an Orc that turns out to be some eldritch nightmare, that's when things are interesting.

Indeed, I just wish they add both

I don't mind elves and orcs as long as there is also an abundance of Lakrahir, creatures made of water blablabla... or whatever they choose to name and describe any new race.

 

[The Technomancer]

I do not disagree at all.

I really wish it was a game with completely new races that have features completely different than elves and dwarves.

And classes like wind caller or chaosmancer, with fresh skills and spells.

But I still have hope that they will add some unique stuff DESPITE the usual ones.

Well, if they do not..then we still have to see how they are going to spin it, perhaps it will be more interesting and fresh than we expect.

I believe it should have both.

Oh yeah, I'm still hyped as hell.

 

[Lancehead]

I think the problem is many associate characters to behaviours based on labels and do not consider the setting those characters are in. The same elves placed in a different setting will behave differently and will have different motivations to do so. All you do by creating a different race is to attribute a new label to the same character and behaviours.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

there's a difference between feeling "at home" and feeling as though your character belongs in the world of the game. new vegas does this extremely well, though the amnesia is obviously a bit of a narrative crutch.

Better leave this thread if you value your sanity.

my sanity and I haven't spoken in years!

 

[Lancehead]

I also think that if you change the world drastically it's wise to change the labels as well. Because labelling is huge and complex, and while it has its downsides it's pretty damn important if we are to function properly as a society.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

there's a difference between feeling "at home" and feeling as though your character belongs in the world of the game. new vegas does this extremely well, though the amnesia is obviously a bit of a narrative crutch.



my sanity and I haven't spoken in years!

Maybe I need to replay, but I thought the Courier's deal in NV was less amnesia and more uninformed delivery boy?

 

[Lancehead]

Maybe I need to replay, but I thought the Courier's deal in NV was less amnesia and more uninformed delivery boy?

It's not amnesia but it works to the same effect in Lonesome Road.

 

[pulga]

So there's no point in me pledging if there's not gonna be an OSX version? I know someone already said the stretch goal was 1.6 mil but I'd like some reassurance before splashing.

 

[Fredescu]

Wait until 1.6m to pledge if you like, it won't be long.

 

[Ventrue]

So there's no point in me pledging if there's not gonna be an OSX version? I know someone already said the stretch goal was 1.6 mil but I'd like some reassurance before splashing.

There is absolutely zero chance they won't make the Mac version. They are only 45k away from that goal. It is an absolute certainty they will make many hundreds of thousands more than that in the weeks to go.

 

[SparkTR]

So there's no point in me pledging if there's not gonna be an OSX version? I know someone already said the stretch goal was 1.6 mil but I'd like some reassurance before splashing.

We're almost at 1.6 million anyway, if it reaches that there will be an OSX version.

 

[pulga]

Alright, time to get fucking excited.

 

[Grayman]

Alright, time to get fucking excited.

Time indeed. The mac stretch goal should be hit this week. It would be fairly conservative to peg this game as getting the 3 million that wasteland got.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Maybe I need to replay, but I thought the Courier's deal in NV was less amnesia and more uninformed delivery boy?

It's not amnesia but it works to the same effect in Lonesome Road.

the bullet from Benny's gun destroys the courier's memory at the beginning. and the courier was a girl, what game did you play?

 

[Emitan]

the bullet from Benny's gun destroys the courier's memory at the beginning. and the courier was a girl, what game did you play?

Maybe they're one of the wackos that thinks Commander Shepard is a man.

 

[superdeluxe]

Sorry

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Maybe they're one of the wackos that thinks Commander Shepard is a man.

poppycock! he may be the shepherd but we know who the sheep are amirite.

 

[hemtae]

I'm pretty sure the bullet just caused intelligence loss.

Low int courier is the only courier.

 

[Lancehead]

the bullet from Benny's gun destroys the courier's memory at the beginning. and the courier was a girl, what game did you play?

The courier was a girl who didn't lose her memory in my game.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

wait, how am I remembering this wrong after like 350 hours playing new vegas?

perhaps someone has amnesia after all.

 

[Lancehead]

wait, how am I remembering this wrong after like 350 hours playing new vegas?

perhaps someone has amnesia after all.

Yes, well, probably because you haven't spoken with your sanity in years!

 

[Kurtofan]

That update excited the fuck out of me.

 

[Fjordson]

Is that a New Vegas bar sign (not sure on the correct term) that JE has in the second update video? Super jealous, I want one of those as a Kickstarter reward =D

Anyways, game is sounding really cool. Not sure what else to say at this point. Time to start preparing for the long, cold wait ahead.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yes, well, probably because you haven't spoken with your sanity in years!

I'm not going to take this kind of abuse from a tree snake!

but yes, that would explain it. I think it was just lonesome road which confused me, but now I want to play new vegas again.

Is that a New Vegas bar sign (not sure on the correct term) that JE has in the second update video? Super jealous, I want one of those as a Kickstarter reward =D

the mojave express "developer" badge on his bike bag is the one which made me swoon.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

wait, how am I remembering this wrong after like 350 hours playing new vegas?

perhaps someone has amnesia after all.

Dudes on Extra Credit made the same mistake. I think they assumed the Courier was a somebody before the whole being left for dead thing, but she really wasn't. Most details about the Courier's past are filled in by the player through dialogue choices.