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Most of those points seem very fair and valid to me.

I agree. I don't see any easy or likely solutions, though, other than to spread awareness, not be part of the problem myself, and let time bring change, hopefully soon and for the better.

 

[LithiumSpade]

I generally agree with this list, and it's awful that these situations exist. I do have to wonder what:

11. I can be relatively sure my thoughts about video games won’t be dismissed or attacked based solely on my tone of voice, even if I speak in an aggressive, obnoxious, crude or flippant manner.

has to do with gender at all, though. If I see anyone, regardless of gender, unnecessarily using an aggressive, or obnoxious tone I will absolutely dismiss and or attack them until they learn to be sensible.

Also is it weird i've never given a seconds thought to the appearance of my gender online?

 

[Chettlar]

5. If I enthusiastically express my fondness for video games no one will automatically assume I’m faking my interest just to "get attention" from other gamers.

It's wrong to assume, certainly, so I try not to.

Unfortunately the stereotype comes from girls who do in fact want attention. In fact, the majority do, in my experience. Even girls who do like gaming often harp on the fact.

It's pretty hard to find girls (outside of forums and things) that genuinely like games, so we get this stereotype. It's a bad stereotype (I mean, what stereotype isn't bad?), but it's really more something that guys can't really fix. Girls have to.

Must suck to be girls who really do genuinely just want to have fun and play games.

 

[Dark Octave]

I think you misread "While" for "White" (as did I).

Yes I did (and I believe some others have as well). Well that's embarrassing.

 

[blitzcloud]

The vast majority of game studios, past and present, have been led and populated primarily by people of my own gender and as such most of their products have been specifically designed to cater to my demographic.

I think this is basically the entire reason for everything.

he forgot to mention that they are primarily bought by people of his gender too. Tiny detail to omit.

 

[TopGun]

Peace out guys, going to the bunker.

 

[213372bu]

I highly disagree.

I find 2,3,5,6,11,13,15,22,23, and 24 to be especially not true.

I wish we actually had articles that dealt with anti-sexism, not articles that make the same "wide/broad/untrue accusations/generalizations" that they so wish to go against, like here:

However, impunity for the overt sexist behavior some men engage in is also a core part of how male privilege operates.

[Men] have been taught and socialized not to see it and to think of our own experiences as universal

Trying to talk about sexism in this manner/while being sexist will never get anyone aware of the actual issues of sexism in gaming, especially since the article doesn't go out to actually explain how we should overcome sexism, rather it just points fingers at the targeted audience.

We need actual articles that show sexism in developer studios and in contact in playing with others. We need articles showing how bad this issue is and how we should deal with it.

Pointing fingers isn't going to get anyone to do anything.

 

[not_so_special]

Why mention "white" when the article is so gender focused?

As a black male gamer, I got many racist comments thrown at me whenever I went online, that have left a scar so deep in me to the point that the rare times I do go online, I don't even bother to mic up.

sorry to hear that buddy add me if u are on the one riesgoyfortuna or the ps4 v8_interceptor

 

[Acorn]

Even though, I am a white male, I typically don't play online games with random people, because most communities are pretty terrible.

As for the non-online community stuff, it would be nice to see more representation in the industry. Like female playable characters who aren't Waifus. If Game of Thrones can manage to have a large assortment of sexualized and non-sexualized females (and males) in the same show, games should be able to do the same.



It's less about anonymity and more about not being in immediate risk of a punch in the face.

Even then people are dicks.

Good people are good people wherever they are. Dicks are dicks wherever they are.

 

[AppleMIX]

I think its less of a gaming culture thing, but more a manifestation of people's personal beliefs, magnified and aided by the internet.

You can't solve the problem by going after gamers, you gotta solve the problem in society at large.

Pretty much.

The problem is that I don't really see a plausible solution that doesn't already exist (IE mute/block buttons).

 

[nailbombxx]

People get harassed even if they are white and male. People are just assholes.

 

[Moneal]

20. If I am trash-talked or verbally berated while playing online, it will not be because I am male nor will my gender be invoked as an insult.

guess he has never had his manhood challenged, or told his "size" is small. In other words never played an online game.

 

[Gator86]

I like this piece because, as McIntosh notes, realizing privilege exists is the first step in working to undermine it. Feeling guilty or ashamed of male privilege -- while understandable -- isn't the point. We need to just be cognizant of the privilege and power we hold so that we can be more sensitive. Sensitivity is good! It means you understand systems of oppression and privilege, where you and others sit in those systems, and how you can then act to make sure you don't perpetuate those systems. Which is cool, cause then it means you're a more respectful, caring, safe person, and it means the spaces you're in are those things, too. Even if those "spaces" are just Xbox Live or NeoGAF.

I like the gist of the piece and think you have a great take-away. It's always great to see people discussing issues like these. With that said, I expect this to be an utter graveyard before long.

 

[kswiston]

Even then people are dicks.

Good people are good people wherever they are. Dicks are dicks wherever they are.

While this is true, the internet brings out the cowardly, closet dicks who would keep their mouth shut in public. As such, we get more dickery than we do in real life.

 

[Foffy]

I highly disagree.

I find 2,3,5,6,11,13,15,22,23, and 24 to be especially not true.

I wish we actually had articles that dealt with anti-sexism, not articles that make the same "wide/broad/untrue accusations/generalizations" that they so wish to go against, like here:





Trying to talk about sexism in this manner will never get anyone aware of the actual issues of sexism in gaming, especially since the article doesn't go out to actually explain how we should overcome sexism, rather it just points fingers at the targeted audience.

We need actual articles that show sexism in developer studios and in contact in playing with others. We need articles showing how bad this issue is and how we should deal with it.

Pointing fingers isn't going to get anyone to do anything.

All games media can ever do is point fingers. Try another outlet if you want to raise arguments for change.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

So... Am I supposed to feel bad about being privileged or something?

 

[Emptiiness]

people are jerks online ? color me surprised. I get harassed online just like everybody else and in regards to games being catered too boys. yes there are a lot of girl gamers but the majority are boys and gaming is a business its called marketing to a demographic and besides i know lots of girls who enjoy "boy games" like halo and gears.

But everything i say is wrong because im white and male

 

[OmahaG8]

I think that many accounts will be banned during this thread.

Started to type a post. Deleted. Did that 3 times.

Peace out guys, going to the bunker.

Yep.

 

[TheHall]

People get harassed even if they are white and male. People are just assholes.

I agree, but it is no doubt amplified for women.

The frustrated male gamer "nerd" is a stereotype for a reason.

 

[213372bu]

All games media can ever do is point fingers. Try another outlet if you want to raise arguments for change.

That's my point. We need "gaming journalists" to actually tackle problems, like y'know, all the journalists in physical publications that pushed social reform? We will never get anywhere if all that is provided is this finger-pointing

 

[Duster]

I think articles like this really need to find a less charged word than "privilege" as it just makes people defensive or hostile before you even get to the meat of their arguments.
(No idea what that word would be though)

 

[kittens]

Why mention "white" when the article is so gender focused?

As a black male gamer, I got many racist comments thrown at me whenever I went online, that have left a scar so deep in me to the point that the rare times I do go online, I don't even bother to mic up.

Yeah, that's probably my biggest problem with the piece. He really seems to just be talking about the experiences of white people here. He gives a quick nod to racism (along with ableism and transphobia), but in the rest of the article he makes no mention of race. And when race is left out, we all know what the assumption is: the author is talking about white people. Cause, as things typically go, only white people can get by with their race not being mentioned.

I have mixed feelings on trying to separate one form of oppression from another like this. Part of me thinks its useful, but part of me doesn't. Sometimes sexism manifests itself very differently depending on the race of those involved. I'm not sure how I would have written the article differently, though.

 

[AkuMifune]

Writing with privilege: the invisible benefits of existing in an ignorant social bubble.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

So... Am I supposed to feel bad about being privileged or something?

You're just supposed to be aware that when someone who is less privileged complains about something pertaining to their lack of privilege, they aren't just making it up for attention and that some people have to think about things and face challenges that more privileged people don't.

 

[Acorn]

I think articles like this really need to find a less charged word than "privilege" as it just makes people defensive or hostile before you even get to the meat of their arguments.
(No idea what that word would be though)

Bias? Distortion?

Dunno.

 

[Cybit]

Pretty much.

The problem is that I don't really see a plausible solution that doesn't already exist (IE mute/block buttons).

Indeed; our ability to self-select our surroundings and our entire lives (news, entertainment, friends, etc) basically is showing that we're becoming much worse at dealing with differences.

If the sites that use FB comments are any indication; anonymity plays only a minor role in all of this.

While gaming is a subset; most of these types of articles are accurate if limited. Do not think asians or females or gays or any other sub culture is not as intolerant of outsiders as gamers or whites or males. We spent 99.99% of our existence as a species in tribes. In the space of less than someone's average life; we basically completely blew up that paradigm of living (between transportation revolutions & communication revolution). In related news, we didn't adapt to it very well.

In a weird way, digging into this confirms that the more different we are, the more truly similar we are.

On that note, <popcorn> <watches the ban hammers go out>

 

[Talon]

So... Am I supposed to feel bad about being privileged or something?

You're supposed to understand social and cultural contexts and thus contribute to continuing the conversation as we continue to move forward and understand where we came from.

 

[hawk2025]

I'm sorry, but the people saying "Am I supposed to feel ashamed?" are completely missing the point.


And the OP even said as much on the very first post.

 

[garyBig]

People get harassed even if they are white and male. People are just assholes.

This. Unless there is an article to be read about how we could do something about it or how to, as a community ,lessen the effects of this fact, I'm not sure why I should accept being tossed in the same bowl with stupid, intolerant bullies who happen to be white and male like me. Instead, articles like these keep coming. I am just too doubtful as to whether this article accomplishes anything. Raising awareness is not everything, but it seems to me to be the only thing we get.


EDIT:

That's my point. We need "gaming journalists" to actually tackle problems, like y'know, all the journalists in physical publications that pushed social reform? We will never get anywhere if all that is provided is this finger-pointing

Beat to it. Basically my point as well.

 

[Pseudo_Sam]

The (incredibly) vast majority of females are NOT groped at conventions or stalked when they give out personal information or berated at Gamestop. To suggest otherwise is delusional. Obviously sexual assault/stalking/ect are never acceptable and should never be ignored, but the point here seems to be that female gamers are living in a constant state of fear because of all the white (?) male gamer would-be assailants hiding in the shadows, which is nonsense. I would be interested to see (if they exist) any statistics on sexual assault at conventions compared to other events/controls. I suspect any difference would be statistically insignificant.

Nearly everything else on that list can be attributed to anonymous online interactions, where everyone is an asshole to everyone else regardless of gender or race. Assholes online nearly always go for the insults/abuse most specific to who they're talking to, so women will get female-specific abuse, ethnicities will get racial abuse, people with accents will get abuse on that, ect. It's more likely to get a rise out of people, which is what the assholes are looking for. Again, it's not right, but it's certainly not specific to any one gender or demographic. And I don't really know how to solve the scourge of online assholes (edit: other than mute buttons).

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I think articles like this really need to find a less charged word than "privilege" as it just makes people defensive or hostile before you even get to the meat of their arguments.
(No idea what that word would be though)

I kind of agree with this. The word makes me bristle, and not because I don't believe in privilege but because I'm keenly aware of how it makes people put up their defenses. That isn't necessarily a reason to stop using it, but it's something to consider when trying to communicate to people with a different ideological background. Basically, do you want to use the words that are very familiar to your team and your cause, even if they aren't the most effective route to persuasion?

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Interesting read.

 

[Einbroch]

While I agree with that list, it's way too bloated. Like half of those points are the same thing.

 

[kahboomkin]

Fair, valid, and totally true points.
16 seems like a bit of a stretch, but I agree that more gender diversity in main characters would be a welcome addition to future games.

 

[Dark Octave]

sorry to hear that buddy add me if u are on the one riesgoyfortuna or the ps4 v8_interceptor

Thanks man. Will add.

Actually, being anonymous doesn't turn people into "cunts" (which, by the way, if we're talking about sexism that's kind of an ironic word to use ), but that being anonymous causes people to show their true self (basically, what they would truly be like without having to worry about what society would think of them). Plenty of people are considerate and good people even when they are anonymous. I think it more is a test of your true character how you act when you are anonymous.

I agree with this. No fear of being yourself really is the test of a person and exposes who they really are. I've learned a lot by going online and one of those things is that the amount of people out there who are just bat shit insane is staggering. I can imagine what a female has to go through online but at the same time, I can't.

 

[DocSeuss]

I agree with some of the things, I disagree with some of the things. That first point is kinda silly, because it basically says "misogyny exists because men don't have to worry about people being misogynistic to them." Which is... well, duh. You can't be misogynistic towards a man, because that's literally impossible. The article has a bit of "men will never have these women's issues happen to them," which rubs me the wrong way. It comes off as disingenuous.

There are problems that need to be fixed (some people I care about won't even go on mic with friends because of how horrible people have been to them in the past as a result of gender, and that riles me), but this whole privilege thing is completely overblown.

I'm not really sure women are harassed more than men online. Men seem pretty consistently harassed. I've been harassed. Heck, I've been harassed in a gendered way. I think the majority of harassment for women is gender-infused, though. Like, if I were an angry child on the internet, I might tell someone how I responsible for his birth, or I might call SWAT to his house, or something like that, but if I were the same person facing a woman, I might demand pics or say other weird sexual things.

Heck, even as a guy, I've been called lots of gendered insults. I'm a puny boy, I can't get laid, I've got no dick, my dick's small... lots of things. The whole "men don't get insulted on the internet because they're privileged" comes across to me as a complete fabrication from people who don't actually pay attention to reality.

I don't think it's worse or more common. I just think it's distinct. But that's online. That stuff at conventions? Groping, sexual propositioning, stuff like that? That's horrible, and people who do that stuff should be outed, mocked, and terminated from their places of employment.

Because it was created by a straight white male, this checklist will likely be taken more seriously than if it had been written by virtually any female gamer.

This point seems to come from a place of complete ignorance. Seriously, is there anyone out there in the world going "this random dude has written a checklist, it's gotta be important."

Honestly, this reeks of way more self-importance than if someone like, say, Kim Swift wrote it. The point's ridiculous. It seems divorced from reality.

 

[Blair]

The only online games where I've encountered players that I knew were female was in MMOs and, to my knowledge, everyone was super nice and friendly with them, so this might also have more to do with the genre of the game. CoD players tend to be cunts, but I don't know that that cunt/nice ratio holds true to most genres.

Yeah, women run shit in MMOs. I've heard some hilarious stories from old friends from WoW about how their entire guild waited on them hand and foot.

Still, it must get annoying. To me that sounds worse than being abused (played moba and fps, i've seen some shit), i have never recieved special treatment or attention in any game and that is exactly how i want to play.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Can't see anything objectionable in this list. I wonder how people would react if that list had been written by a woman...

I'm lucky, I've rarely been the target of gendered insults, but I think it's because I avoid playing online and/or with a mic on, generally. The douchiest players I encountered were in Gears of War, and they weren't that sexist but they did use the n-word a lot (they asked me things like "So uh... "morri-gon", what race are you? Are you white? Are you a <n-word>?" Why did they ask me that, you say? Hell if I know. :S). They also whined a lot. I have no idea why they sent me that party invite (it was after a Horde game with randoms) but I left that party rather quickly, hah.

A few years ago in online communities such as forums and chats, I did get a bit of disbelief at my gender whenever it was brought up, half of which was "lol a girl really? no wai", the other half of which was "omg a girl gamer SO KEWL". All things considered, it was rather tame. But just because my own experience is tame, doesn't mean I get to dismiss the experience of others. It's awful that there is so much harassment still.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Is there literally anywhere I can go as a white male without being concerned about privilege?


I'm genuinely curious.

In the bathroom, bring a book or magazine.

 

[Madao]

there is a lot of truth to this.

while i'm male, i use both male and female miis in the games i play since i like the female mii i have (plus, it is my secondary account that uses a different shop than my main one since i have both US and Canada eshop accounts) and yet i get some stalkers and weird people commenting in some of the videos where i use the female mii. i even had to ban some dude once because he started getting into dirty talk.

it's pretty embarassing to see this type of behavior. it is one of the things that is keeping gaming from being considered on the same level as music, TV and other similar things. it is why i don't mind playing single player games only.

 

[_hekk05]

I've been to my fair share of conventions, and I don't see rampant sexual harassment, or even any at all. Article is a bit of a reach in that regard.

More to the point, I don't really think priviledge exists in online gaming. Everybody gets insulted one way or another, and as long as you git gud, you can kick their asses and make them rage quit

 

[Muffdraul]

From my point of view, it boils down to the "fact" that, historically, video games were the domain of males. They just were. It was rare to find a girl who was interested in them at all, who didn't claim they were boring and said they didn't understand why anyone liked them so much. I'm talking about 30 years ago, mind. You'd go into an arcade, a public place where anyone could enter, the vast, vast majority would be males. Girls weren't being excluded. They simply weren't interested. Over time, that's changed. It's happened slowly, and it takes even more time for us dumb brutes to catch up.

That's just my personal take. All bona fide sociologist undergrads are welcome to take a giant shit on me.

 

[Draft]

26. I make more money, can afford more games.
27. Easier to pee in a bottle, less bathroom trips.
28. Stronger upper body (typically,) can hold controller longer / press mouse buttons faster.

I never realized how good I have it!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's wrong to assume, certainly, so I try not to.

Unfortunately the stereotype comes from girls who do in fact want attention. In fact, the majority do, in my experience. Even girls who do like gaming often harp on the fact.

It's pretty hard to find girls (outside of forums and things) that genuinely like games, so we get this stereotype. It's a bad stereotype (I mean, what stereotype isn't bad?), but it's really more something that guys can't really fix. Girls have to.

Must suck to be girls who really do genuinely just want to have fun and play games.

..................
*facepalm*

 

[DracoBlade]

Honestly I just try to be the best person I can, have mutual human respect and dignity for an individual regardless of gender race, etc., do on to others as I want done to me. Racism, sexism, etc. will never be fully eliminated, people fear what is different and things like sex or ethnicity file within said regions of difference. All we can really do is try try to be good people....

Spoiler

Soapbox kicked over, let the soapy suds flood

 

[Philly40]

It's wrong to assume, certainly, so I try not to.

Unfortunately the stereotype comes from girls who do in fact want attention. In fact, the majority do, in my experience. Even girls who do like gaming often harp on the fact.

It's pretty hard to find girls (outside of forums and things) that genuinely like games, so we get this stereotype. It's a bad stereotype (I mean, what stereotype isn't bad?), but it's really more something that guys can't really fix. Girls have to.

Must suck to be girls who really do genuinely just want to have fun and play games.

Please tell me you can justify what you've just posted?

 

[kswiston]

From my point of view, it boils down to the "fact" that, historically, video games were the domain of males. They just were. It was rare to find a girl who was interested in them at all, who didn't claim they were boring and didn't understand why anyone liked them so much. I'm talking about 30 years ago, mind. You'd go into an arcade, a public place where anyone could enter, the vast, vast majority would be males. Girls weren't being excluded. They simply weren't interested. Over time, that's changed. It's happened slowly, and it takes even more time for us dumb brutes to catch up.

That's just my personal take. All bona fide sociologist undergrads are welcome to take a giant shit on me.

I can't speak for 30 years ago, but I am currently 32, and I don't know many women my age who didn't own/play NES/SNES/N64 games (or the Sega/Sony equivalents) growing up. Maybe more of them gave up on games in high school/university until Wii/Facebook/smartphones brought everyone back, but they still played games for a good chunk of their lives.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Sexism is a real problem, and the way many men generally treat women everywhere is appalling, but I find it difficult to associate such words as "privileged" in the context of making the distinction between two groups of people that play videogames..

Poor videogamers have it worse than gamers with a decent and stable income. Same goes for gamers in third world countries vs. first world countries, and sick gamers vs. healthy gamers, but it seems kind of silly to focus on such a small, secondary aspect of much bigger and more important problems.

 

[Talon]

Fact of the matter is that women in this medium are constantly dressed down for matters completely independent from their work, where as the same phenomenon doesn't happen with men. It happens on this forum. It happens on worse places like YouTube comments.

It makes it worse that the damn industry promotes this shit. The fact that Jessica licking hardware became a thing is evidence of that, but IGN will always be IGN.

I think there's positive signs in the fact that we have pivotal female figures in this industry getting more publicity from Corinne Yu to Amy Hennig, but we have quite a ways to go in terms of the content that is produced (What's up, Kojima?) to the media that covers it.

Sexism is a real problem, and the way many men generally treat women everywhere is appalling, but I find it difficult to associate such words as "privileged" in the context of making the distinction between two groups of people that play videogames..

Poor videogamers have it worse than gamers with a decent and stable income. Same goes for gamers in third world countries vs. first world countries, and sick gamers vs. healthy gamers, but it seems kind of silly to focus on such a small, secondary aspect of much bigger and more important problems.

Unfortunately, we can't pick and choose. Most importantly, there's not really a meta-method to address this wholly from a cultural perspective - hell, equal protection is STILL a fucking political issue. It's 2014. What the fuck?

Having this conversation within the industry itself is a positive step forward, and I think it lessens effectiveness when we effectively say, "There are bigger problems like hunger."

 

[JimmyRustler]

I think that many accounts will be banned during this thread.

Yeah. I don't really understand why this topic is brought up on GAF this often when it is very clear that you have to be VERY careful for even questing those articels without getting banned.