'Playing with privilege: the invisible benefits of gaming while male'
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blitzcloud
Banned
You elaborated a "you mad?" statement.
People react differently to being called something by someone that can't speak for everyone, yet decides to do it. Ironically, the whole point of that person was saying that they have the privilege of not being called out for some stuff by calling them immune, thus calling them those who cannot be called out for some stuff.
So inherently, his points are invalidated by saying YOU ARE NOT SUFFERING THIS-THEY ARE SUFFERING THIS extreme opposites as some sort of universal truth. In this effort of not having shades of gray, he's essentially telling lies as if it was empirical data.
RockTurtle
Member
i'm saddened that it's establishing a stereotype in gaming where if you are a white or male or straight you are ignorant of some existential aspects of life in a hobby that's being attacked not only from outside sources but inside as well.
the same sources who will fight against the likes of Fox news or Jack thompson when it comes to violence, but throw it all out the window with topics that may be less complex than they seem.
(spoken as a third world brown man with gay parents)
In general, people who have had difficulties (so...99.9999% of all people) don't enjoy being told they have it easy. It makes them feel like their actions or successes are underminded.
I'm only answering your question, not arguing either way.
Now I have an urge to quote Colbert...
Good post.
It's not difficult to admit you are privileged. I don't know why people feel so defensive. I have straight white cis privilege and don't feel ashamed or threatened or defensive about it. Jeez.
Because not everyone agrees with privilege as it's expressed, and because the term itself is loaded with the concept of guilt-tripping. No matter how many qualifiers you add to it, it still comes with the burden of "you have it easy, others have it hard."
This discussion should be compassionate, and the use of terms like privilege is ultimately divisive. It's just bad discourse.
My experience has always mostly been that almost no one know my gender ( male ) when it comes to gaming.
Voice chat only over skype almost only with people I know before hand.
Heck it's actually 'known' in neogaf topics about sexism or racism where you would usually see someone tell you if you don't agree on something there it's because you are a privileged white male who can't understand ( or refuse to ).
So not much experiences with most of the scenarios listed in the OP.
way more
Member
But would you support a vote to open a polling center in a urban area lacking one? Would you support a law explicitly stating race cannot be considered when allowing a person to rent an apt? Would you support institutional changes that attempt to alleviate the hindrances that you admitted exist.
blitzcloud
Banned
Okay, good. Some of your earlier posts made it sound like you were against addressing inequality that currently exists just because you "don't see race." I'm glad that's not the case.
That's pretty much exactly what I was getting at. The reason I'm making a distinction is because that list can be misinterpreted as the bolded.
I haven't said anything particularly different from the general sentiment. There is however a difference between privilege and right in this instance. The list labels it as a privilege for men, but I view it as rights in place for everyone that unfortunately isn't respected because of sexist attitudes. Same applies for race, hence my use of the Civil Rights Movement example. Ethical/conscious people of course already know this, clearly there are many who are unaware or don't care. It's not about enforcing, it's about attitudes and as for Polygon's editorial, presentation. So for me the use of the word 'privilege' here frames it in a less effective way than the use of 'rights' would.
The way this stuff bubbles up to lead to systemic problems is all about how we behave when we have very little time to think.
I don't doubt that you strive to treat people equally. That you sincerely would hate to be racist in any way or sexist.
Most people are like that. they want to be good kind people who treat people fairly. But unfortunately when a good kind person is looking at a pile of 150 resumes with 1 week to find 1 candidate they'll unconsciously weed out people with funny names for the innocent reason that they don't want to cock up the call. 'Hi this is tom from XYZ corp, is this Tin nie guy en.. gny uan .. ngyaan... ahhh fuck it lets hire John Smith.'
Awareness that this happens so much that Tin Nguyen career prospects is impacted in a measurable way maybe people will be more likely to make the attempt.
Most of the system racism comes from snap decisions and not a cabal of KKK hiring managers. A big help would be if people can evaluate and think about why they make those snap decisions and maybe there is economic efficiency in not doing so.
way more
Member
Ok, I really can't argue with how you choose to respect people.
RockTurtle
Member
I'm not sure that's necessarily true (though it could be in some cases). I think the negative reaction probably comes from people feeling like they're being told that their own problems and pain don't count as 'real' (whether or not that is actually what is being said). Obviously some reactions to that feeling are wildly inappropriate, but I do understand where it is ultimately coming from.
Do you ever stop to wonder if you're far more defensive than you should be and through no one else's actions, associating yourself with the bad sexist people inferred in the article? I'm a male gamer just like you -- how come I can read the same article without thinking they're talking about me specifically and not feel threatened like you?
Compassionate discussion? More like neutered and polite. More like "don't make me personally uncomfortable."
Some white, some male.. but generally, yes. A lot of defensive people inexplicably thinking they're personally being attacked.
As a female who sucks at games, I will answer: you don't have to worry that the fact you suck will now prove to people that females suck at gaming. They will just chalk it up to you sucking rather than you sucking cause you are female. You don't have to worry about how you end up representing a whole group. And better yet, if a female doesn't suck they're seen as an anomaly and don't count anyways, they're just special/different.
TheHollowNight
Member
In the last few years I've worked in two large studios, the first one only had two women in a team of roughly 100. The second has around 200 and maybe 8 are women in production/development roles.
of course it fluctuates per studio basis, but it's sort of depressing that it's actually that lopsided on my own first hand experience.
Kind of a side point but I was wondering the other day, Asians seem to perform as well as whites but privilege doesn't seem to be attributed to Asians. I wonder what's up with that. I'm neither btw.
Nymphae
Banned
Neither do you. You honestly worry about this?
GhostTrick
Banned
There's something I hate: Putting everyone in the same basket. What's the "white male gamer" supposed to mean ? Can we just stop acting as people are the same based on 3 criterias ? I just wished people would just grow up and think beyond what people looks like and start to think about how everyone is different by its way of thinking, by its opinion.
Also, to answer that article, that's totally wrong. Sometimes, people on the internet can be so mad that you better not post personnal information, regardless of your gender, sometimes just because you had an argument or think different things.
Sometimes, people can dismiss you being a "gamer" because of your gaming tastes, regardless of your gender. It's just about who you're speaking with rather than what your gender is.
Also, to answer that article, that's totally wrong. Sometimes, people on the internet can be so mad that you better not post personnal information, regardless of your gender, sometimes just because you had an argument or think different things.
Sometimes, people can dismiss you being a "gamer" because of your gaming tastes, regardless of your gender. It's just about who you're speaking with rather than what your gender is.
how do those numbers compare to the percent of women qualifying for those positions looking for work in the Industry? I keep hearing these things, yet most classes I have taken that are game industry related, are filled entirely by guys(anecdotal i know).
blitzcloud
Banned
maybe he felt some of the stuff that they're attributing you unable of experiencing in a chivalrous attempt of showing a lack equality, while displaying a lack of ethics by grouping females into a suffering group of people who can't experience the graceful mercy of the internet we males have, doing essentially polar opposite same of someone saying, as in that comic strip: "wow, women suck at math" --> "wow, males have it easy!"
The author is doing the same. I'm not upset about it, i'm simply pointing the obvious and common flaw of biased arguments backfiring if you simply place them on the opposite side. Arguments where you can't do: "bad-good" polarity because they're saying "not bad nor good" can't be so easily countered.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
What's the alternative then? Whenever we start discussions on what we can do to help the situation everyone wonders why we should care about in the first place. The discussion has to start with the honest fact that in this one very specific situation, you do have it easy where others have it hard.
Yep. It's particularly terrible that either way you're blamed for a reality you have no control over.
Privilege is particularly insidious when people deny (or downplay) other people's experiences because they haven't personally experienced it. Which is impossible, given that we cannot inhabit another person's thoughts like some kind of Vulcan mind meld.
Partisans are particularly guilty of this. On both sides.
Dr.Schlomo
Banned
I'm confused about the whole "privileged" thing. So, I'm "privileged" because of the color of my skin? Somehow the mere fact that my skin is a lighter color than someone else's skin makes me privileged? Didn't society get in trouble before because they judged people based on their skin instead of their actions and deeds?
Or is it a money thing? Am I privileged because my parents both worked over 40hr weeks so my siblings and I could grow up in a low to middle class environment? Is that why I'm privileged?
Or is it because I'm a male? Do I have a full time well paying job because I'm a male or is because I worked my way through college, learned responsibility and personal growth, and stayed up countless nights teaching myself how to program instead of partying my way through college? Is that why I'm privileged?
Sorry guys I'm just really confused
Or is it a money thing? Am I privileged because my parents both worked over 40hr weeks so my siblings and I could grow up in a low to middle class environment? Is that why I'm privileged?
Or is it because I'm a male? Do I have a full time well paying job because I'm a male or is because I worked my way through college, learned responsibility and personal growth, and stayed up countless nights teaching myself how to program instead of partying my way through college? Is that why I'm privileged?
Sorry guys I'm just really confused
The VA would much rather we kill ourselves, yes. All they do is load you up with a bunch of medication that has side effects of further suicidal thoughts. I've lost more friends since we got back than when I was over there.
Mental health needs to become a much larger focus in the US, not just for troops, but for everyone. A sane society is a healthy society.
Watch this, please: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8pmhQwcnYI'm confused about the whole "privileged" thing. So, I'm "privileged" because of the color of my skin? Somehow the mere fact that my skin is a lighter color than someone else's skin makes me privileged? Didn't society get in trouble before because they judged people based on their skin instead of their actions and deeds?
Or is it a money thing? Am I privileged because my parents both worked over 40hr weeks so my siblings and I could grow up in a low to middle class environment? Is that why I'm privileged?
Or is it because I'm a male? Do I have a full time well paying job because I'm a male or is because I worked my way through college, learned responsibility and personal growth, and stayed up countless nights teaching myself how to program instead of partying my way through college? Is that why I'm privileged?
Sorry guys I'm just really confused
Thank God they abolished racism when Obama became president.
The left has a tendency to attribute white with privilege. Just the mere fact that a person is white leads to some sort of advantage. Even though Asians outperform whites in income.
Edit: I am not a right winger, just a non partisan.
I can only imagine. I'm white and three out of five Titanfall sessions this week I was called "faggot" "jew" and "nigger."
This.
Fun facts:
I'm not white
I'm not financially "affluent"
I have diseases, (and potentially colon cancer according to my doctor,)
I experience many hardships in my life.
I've experienced people I know die
I am not sexist
I am not racist
I treat everyone the same regardless of their race/gender/etc.
I have had racist remarks thrown at me
I have been bullied from elementary school to 8th grade REALLY harshly
I don't have the best of grades
I have suffered from depression in my early life
I have to deal with unrealistically high expectations of myself
I have to deal with my mom who has MS and can barely walk around and function as a human being, with it getting worse every day
As an individual, am I now allowed to have an opinion on this article?
blitzcloud
Banned
WHILE.
not WHITE.
not WHITE.
A lot of the surrounding data point to discrimination existing still. lower call back rates. Lower promotion rates. Lower pay for the same qualifications etc... So there some recognition that Asians do okay despite discrimination not due to the lack of it.
A pretty common story is that a couple arrive with nothing (my parents) work 80h a week at min wage (literally true of mine for 2 decades) to get their kids through college. The massively higher parental investment in the kids is what helps them do better in life and the culture that inspires that also help kids be better on average at things which leads to better than average wages.
Also many of those asians people came from middle class social strata in their home country. so despite arriving in poverty and living below the poverty line they lack a lot of the problems that poverty inspires like fathers abandoning kids, a culture which looks down on achievement, and lack of investment in the children.
I'd expect at some point both of those things will fade. Because the stereotypes that keep Asian people from being hired or promoted will fade and the massive parental investment will fade. I know my wife and I probably won't work 80h a week so our kids can go to college. We'll probably work 40h/week 9-5 and pay for their education.
Portugeezer
Member
I expect he opened a can of worms with his comment, but c'mon, you read his comment in under 1 minute and link him to 1 hour video.
Why not make a point?
The title yes. The article mentions white too though.
TheHollowNight
Member
It is definitely improving. My brother is currently doing a degree in games art & animation and there's an encouraging split of girls and guys on the course. A bunch of the team at my current studio do talks and workshops at local colleges & it does seem interest is picking up from women. Animation, concept art & environment art are usually most popular with potential female developers! I know a few female game/level designers in other studios, but honestly it's pretty hard to gauge what disciplines attract more interest since the numbers are so low comparatively (I know no female programmers personally whatsoever).
The culture is already ingrained in established studios, so it's going to be hard to break down the walls.
I think personally this is why the independent scene is consistently the most interesting & promising to me in terms of progression. Anybody & everybody has an outlet to promote their stuff now.
Yes, you're privileged because you're white. And you're privileged because you had two parents. And you're privileged they had jobs and could afford to raise you. You did absolutely nothing to deserve any of that. And yet, it was bestowed upon you solely based on the luck of being born to certain people, at a certain time, in a certain place. And -- this is the tricky part -- the vast majority of the world didn't have those advantages, yet they have to compete in the same global marketplace you do. They have to fight for the same resources and respect that you've taken for granted your entire life.I'm confused about the whole "privileged" thing. So, I'm "privileged" because of the color of my skin? Somehow the mere fact that my skin is a lighter color than someone else's skin makes me privileged? Didn't society get in trouble before because they judged people based on their skin instead of their actions and deeds?
Or is it a money thing? Am I privileged because my parents both worked over 40hr weeks so my siblings and I could grow up in a low to middle class environment? Is that why I'm privileged?
Or is it because I'm a male? Do I have a full time well paying job because I'm a male or is because I worked my way through college, learned responsibility and personal growth, and stayed up countless nights teaching myself how to program instead of partying my way through college? Is that why I'm privileged?
Sorry guys I'm just really confused
I hope this diminishes your confusion. And post another snarky, smart-ass post in this thread again, and you can go find somewhere else to smirk.
Because he's ignoring an entire history of injustice and making arguments from a perspective of privilege that cannot be debunked in a single paragraph? Privilege is not about whether or not you worked hard. Pretty much everyone works hard.
edit: Though actually, probably just as relevant, is this: http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html
But that's actually quite a bit more of a time investment. It is utterly fantastic reading though. Probably the best book I've ever read on history.
As disadvantages go, PTSD is a really bad one. The same empathetic changes that society needs to make things more equal are also required to help soldiers re-integrate and thrive. I think the stigma of mental illness is also awful.
adampa1006
Banned
I was born a white male, I am not gonna be shamed and feel bad because of that. No one should.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
"Male privilege" is a toxic term, and if the goal is to bring about honest discussion and to raise up women to the same privilege afforded to men (assuming each and every thing in the article is legitimate) then it needs to be discarded. No one likes to be told their gender is privileged any more than someone likes to be told "you suck at gaming because you're a girl/gay/such-and-such race/etc"
Pointing out "dat privilege" is a mental exercise at best and a game of pile-on at worst. And the trouble is that it's quite easy to point the finger instead of engaging in thoughtful discussion, so we have articles like this that touch on an issue that is real and is important and should be addressed, but it's done in such a superficial way that I have to wonder if the only purpose is click-bait. Why not focus on ways to level the playing field instead of just pointing to those (supposedly) on a pedestal and complaining?
Pointing out "dat privilege" is a mental exercise at best and a game of pile-on at worst. And the trouble is that it's quite easy to point the finger instead of engaging in thoughtful discussion, so we have articles like this that touch on an issue that is real and is important and should be addressed, but it's done in such a superficial way that I have to wonder if the only purpose is click-bait. Why not focus on ways to level the playing field instead of just pointing to those (supposedly) on a pedestal and complaining?
The discussion thought, isn't that you should feel bad.
It's that the system is shitty and fixing it would be great.
Nobody's trying to shame anyone. It would just be nice if people acknowledge the benefits they were born with that they might take for granted.
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