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[Deleted member 13876]

Hell, give us items like Vitamins to adjust the values. Make them hard to get, like Battle Frontier reward points. Genetics is a big theme of the upcoming game and battling for them would be more fun than riding a bike hours on end.

 

[JoeM86]

I don't think they should cut IVs out. I think they should tweak the system to make them easier to customise (read: maximise) for competitive battling. Even something as simple as "when you're online, your Pokémon's stats temporarily increase a bit to what they would have been if you had max IVs".

I disagree about them being manipulatable. They are meant to be genetics of a Pokémon and you can't manipulate genetics like that.

That online bit is the only thing I may accept, but even that is a bit of a stretch

 

[ColtraineGF]

At the very least, it seems that they were open to making EVs more visible and easier to train (at any time?), so it remains to be seen what has been done for the other thing. At the very least there may be more breeding improvements. I'd rather argue the ease of training once I've seen what GF has done in the latest games.

 

[Macka]

The IV argument is pointless. No matter how they changed the system, people will always strive for perfection. Keep in mind that stuff like IV breeding or abusing the RNG is incredibly tedious and time-consuming. Dedication is what gets you that perfect Pokemon.

Stop complaining about the necessity of having perfect IV's - if you want to be competitive online, put the time in.

 

[Andrefpvs]

Was this posted?

2013 Global Showdown Rankings!
Competitions

The 2013 Global Showdown rankings are finally here! We apologize for the delay in posting the rankings. The delay was due to an additional check of the Pokémon that were registered for the tournament.

　

During our investigation, we found that a large number of illegal Pokémon were used during the competition. Players who were found to have used illegal Pokémon have been disqualified from the rankings and thus will not be eligible to participate in the test competition for Pokémon X and Pokémon Y, to be hosted at the new Pokémon Global Link website. We strive to offer a fair battle environment to all of our players, and the use of illegal Pokémon undermines the spirit of the competition.

　

We will not disclose further details about the investigation. Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

http://en.pokemon-gl.com/#/information/752

HELL YEAH BAN THOSE HACKERS TPCi

 

[JoeM86]

Was this posted?



http://en.pokemon-gl.com/#/information/752

HELL YEAH BAN THOSE HACKERS TPCi

Yeah, it's what started this whole RNG debate :/

 

[backlot]

I accept that we have to wait and see, but there's a difference between using items and manipulating things in this manner. I doubt GameFreak would have implemented this feature just to disregard it in external play.

I just feel that if they were to cut IVs out, then it would damage the franchise considerably. You guys say my idea of a max would shift the idea of the perfect Pokémon down to an optimal one, I argue that it doesn't. It'll create a decent amount of diversity without crap like that.

It won't create diversity. If something like Lucario always wants the highest Speed and Attack then every Lucario will be bred to have the best Speed and Attack possible no matter what restrictions you put on it.

 

[Charlie0108]

I do wish that people would be a bit more experimental with Fairy types when filming themselves playing these demos

 

[Andrefpvs]

Yeah, it's what started this whole RNG debate :/

Sorry, I've been avoiding this thread since I'm on a media blackout for X&Y.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

IV is the devil

Hey, I don't associate with those silly things! I may be evil, but I've got standards, for f*ck's sake!

 

[IntelliHeath]

Was this posted?



http://en.pokemon-gl.com/#/information/752

HELL YEAH BAN THOSE HACKERS TPCi

Yeah, it's what started this whole RNG debate :/

What is RNG?

Also I'm concerned that it might be their reasons to not allowing us to transfer the pokemons from old system to new system.

I would hate that if it actually happened because I got all pokemon by myself LEGALLY.

 

[Zeroth]

It won't create diversity. If something like Lucario always wants the highest Speed and Attack then every Lucario will be bred to have the best Speed and Attack possible no matter what restrictions you put on it.

It doesn't help that stats like Speed deal in absolutes: You're either faster than the other pokemon or it will always go first. At least when two pokemon of same species and max Speed stat fight, the game decides who goes first, giving some aspect of randomization to the match.

IVs, at their core, are a simple mechanic that attempts to visually separate pokemons of the same species from being the same beyond their unique code that the game uses. It doesn't create a better situation for players who want to battle, it only incentives min-maxing in order to have a competitive pokemon. If GameFreak dislikes people are trying to get max IVs, maybe they should scrap the system in the first place and do something different.

What is RNG?

Also I'm concerned that it might be their reasons to not allowing us to transfer the pokemons from old system to new system.

I would hate that if it actually happened because I got all pokemon by myself LEGALLY.

RNG is the "random" number generator that determines every aspect of your pokemon, from gender to its IVs. RNG manipulation is finding out how/when the game will create your desired pokemon and then trying to hit that criteria. You don't use third party items or hack the game, you merely find out when it will create by itself the pokemon you want, so it's not hacking.

 

[DaBoss]

Yea, IVs don't really add anything. They should do something else.

What is RNG?

Random Number Generator

Also I'm concerned that it might be their reasons to not allowing us to transfer the pokemons from old system to new system.

I would hate that if it actually happened because I got all pokemon by myself LEGALLY.

Yea, I'm worried about that too.

 

[qq more]

Hey, I don't associate with those silly things! I may be evil, but I've got standards, for f*ck's sake!

oopz sorry IV is the... uh... i got nothin'

 

[Zeroth]

oopz sorry IV is the... uh... i got nothin'

The Flareon

 

[Quest1]

I don't like IVs either, but from a competitive standpoint, you do what you have to to win as long as its allowable within the boundaries of the game. Playing fair (in Pokemons case, catching pokemon and not worrying about their IVs and expecting to compete at tge highest level of competition) is scrub mentality. Like Sirlin said, you play to win. Wave dashing Melee or Tekken wasn't part of developer intent, but it was in the game and made people better. Infinites in the MvC series, unblockables in SF4, etc. You learn and do what you have to to win, and RNG abuse falls in those categories.

I think the argument is about how to fix IVs themselves or get rid of them entirely for a better system. And we can argue all we like, but none of us work at Gamefreak/TPC. So whatever system they implement, people are going to find a way to break it.

Btw, I've never RNGd for a perfect pokemon or hacked to get one. The most ive done was breed a growlithe from a perfect IV adamant ditto that I traded someone online for, so I have two perfect IV stats on my Arcanine and that's it. I'm lazy, but I also don't expect to compete when official tournaments are held. That and I suck at 2v2 lol

 

[qq more]

The Flareon

Hell naw. More like the s- ...


...Mega Mewtwo. Let's go with that.

 

[Toxi]

The IV argument is pointless. No matter how they changed the system, people will always strive for perfection. Keep in mind that stuff like IV breeding or abusing the RNG is incredibly tedious and time-consuming. Dedication is what gets you that perfect Pokemon.

Stop complaining about the necessity of having perfect IV's - if you want to be competitive online, put the time in.

It's a pointless time sink that doesn't actually add any depth.

The dedication is in team-building or training Pokemon or hatching Pokemon with the right nature and ability, not breeding a Pokemon with 31 IVs in each value except for speed if it's Ferrothorn or a Trick Room Poke. IVs suck.

I don't like IVs either, but from a competitive standpoint, you do what you have to to win as long as its allowable within the boundaries of the game. Playing fair (in Pokemons case, catching pokemon and not worrying about their IVs and expecting to compete at tge highest level of competition) is scrub mentality. Like Sirlin said, you play to win. Wave dashing Melee or Tekken wasn't part of developer intent, but it was in the game and made people better. Infinites in the MvC series, unblockables in SF4, etc. You learn and do what you have to to win, and RNG abuse falls in those categories.

I think the argument is about how to fix IVs themselves or get rid of them entirely for a better system. And we can argue all we like, but none of us work at Gamefreak/TPC. So whatever system they implement, people are going to find a way to break it.

Btw, I've never RNGd for a perfect pokemon or hacked to get one. The most ive done was breed a growlithe from a perfect IV adamant ditto that I traded someone online for, so I have two perfect IV stats on my Arcanine and that's it. I'm lazy, but I also don't expect to compete when official tournaments are held. That and I suck at 2v2 lol

Scrub mentality has nothing to do with IV complaints. Most of the people complaining about them are the same people who enjoy competitive Pokemon. It's fine to complain about stupid, broken game design while still maintaining a competitive mindset.

I just feel that if they were to cut IVs out, then it would damage the franchise considerably. You guys say my idea of a max would shift the idea of the perfect Pokémon down to an optimal one, I argue that it doesn't. It'll create a decent amount of diversity without crap like that.

There won't be diversity anyway, because everybody is still breeding for perfect IVs (And Hidden Power).

Diversity is created by actual choices, like whether I should sacrifice defense or special defense on my mixed Hydreigon's nature.

 

[Quest1]

Scrub mentality has nothing to do with IV complaints. Most of the people complaining about them are the same people who enjoy competitive Pokemon. It's fine to complain about stupid, broken game design while still maintaining a competitive mindset.

I think IVs are bad too (it's why I play showdown) but complaining about other people who RNG or calling it cheating is pretty scrubby. Yeah, it's a bad mechanic, but it's the game we play, and it's not really cheating. We have to deal with it if we want to compete until its changed.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Hell naw. More like the s- ...


...Mega Mewtwo. Let's go with that.

Oh, come out with it. Did you mean to say that it is the

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The IV argument is pointless. No matter how they changed the system, people will always strive for perfection. Keep in mind that stuff like IV breeding or abusing the RNG is incredibly tedious and time-consuming. Dedication is what gets you that perfect Pokemon.

Stop complaining about the necessity of having perfect IV's - if you want to be competitive online, put the time in.

Why? I don't enjoy breeding or training. I enjoy battling. Why should I be forced to endure the former for the sake of the latter when it would be rather easy to make it so I can focus solely on the latter?

EDIT: On a different topic, I'm still annoyed MegaMawile and MegaAbsol were made Megalutions and not actual evolutions. ;_;

 

[Trey]

I'm with the people that think IVs are a terrible mechanic. Much preferable would be an IV system that facilitated cosmetic differences based on "genetics," and had no effect on base stats or competitive viability.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I'm with the people that think IVs are a terrible mechanic. Much preferable would be an IV system that facilitated cosmetic differences based on "genetics," and had no effect on base stats or competitive viability.

I really thought the notched eared Pichu would be the start of Pokemon with little quirks that would differentiate them from the others. Also loved the slight color variations based on nicknames in the Stadium games. I'd like to see more things like that.

 

[Quest1]

I really thought the notched eared Pichu would be the start of Pokemon with little quirks that would differentiate them from the others. Also loved the slight color variations based on nicknames in the Stadium games. I'd like to see more things like that.

I'm with you on that too. Genetic variation in appearance would be awesome. It's an aesthetic choice that doesn't affect battle. But it seems kinda hard to implement across the board.

 

[JoeM86]

I really thought the notched eared Pichu would be the start of Pokemon with little quirks that would differentiate them from the others. Also loved the slight color variations based on nicknames in the Stadium games. I'd like to see more things like that.

I agree. I'd have loved for them to take the species from the mother, but get some sort of unique quirk from the father. I hypothesised at one point that the Spiky-eared Pichu was potentially a Buneary offspring.

It's a shame that never came to be

 

[Macka]

Why? I don't enjoy breeding or training. I enjoy battling. Why should I be forced to endure the former for the sake of the latter when it would be rather easy to make it so I can focus solely on the latter?

Because that's the nature of competitive gaming as a whole. You do have to put the time in if you want to give yourself the best chance to win. It's a common trait of RPG's in particular; that have you grinding for that rare drop you so desperately need.

If you enjoy battling you should use that to motivate you to breed some good Pokemon. Complaining that you can't keep up when you haven't put in anywhere near as much time as someone else isn't going to get you anywhere.

If they remove IV's altogether, it would suck. If they come up with a different system, people will find a way to exploit it and we'll be back to square one.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Because that's the nature of competitive gaming as a whole. You do have to put the time in if you want to give yourself the best chance to win. It's a common trait of RPG's in particular; that have you grinding for that rare drop you so desperately need.

This is like arguing that before you should be allowed to play in Super Smash Bros. Brawl tournament, you should be forced to play the entirety of the Subspace Emissary for at least 80 hours per character you use. Competitive Pokemon, ultimately, is about team designing, and battling - not "unlocking" the characters necessary to battle. The rest is simply a matter of expending time without expending any skill.

If you enjoy battling you should use that to motivate you to breed some good Pokemon. Complaining that you can't keep up when you haven't put in anywhere near as much time as someone else isn't going to get you anywhere.

Personally, it just motivates me to go play on Showdown!. That way I don't have to complain, and can play the part I enjoy. I'm just pointing out that it's a shame that the games don't provide this facility themselves and I'm forced to use a third-party provider.

If they remove IV's altogether, it would suck. If they come up with a different system, people will find a way to exploit it and we'll be back to square one.

The first statement is just an assertion. The second one is partially true in that people will exploit any mechanic, if exploit means "utilize to the fullest extent", but exploiting most mechanics doesn't take tens of hour per Pokemon. Exploiting EVs takes about 30 minutes these days, if not less.

 

[Toxi]

Because that's the nature of competitive gaming as a whole. You do have to put the time in if you want to give yourself the best chance to win. It's a common trait of RPG's in particular; that have you grinding for that rare drop you so desperately need.

If you enjoy battling you should use that to motivate you to breed some good Pokemon. Complaining that you can't keep up when you haven't put in anywhere near as much time as someone else isn't going to get you anywhere.

If they remove IV's altogether, it would suck. If they come up with a different system, people will find a way to exploit it and we'll be back to square one.

It wouldn't suck. Remove IVs and make Hidden Power related to a different value that can be more easily manipulated.

IVs are busy-work, pure and simple. Unlike breeding for natures, they add no depth or decisions to the gameplay. Unlike grinding through training, they are completely separated from the core gameplay mechanics of Pokemon. You can't even compare them to stuff like 1 frame links in Street Fighter, because 1 frame links are core to the combos that you use in a match. IVs would be like having to do several hundred 1 frame links in the training room before your character could even have access to full health and damage on attacks.

It's fine to make difficult or grindy things in video games, but those difficult and grindy things can't just be ancillary shit like IVs. The EV, nature, level, and ability systems are all far better for the health of Pokemon than IVs because they add something to battles. What do IVs add? What strategy guide ever goes over IVs beyond the typical "31 in each stat, unless you're trying to make a slow Poke, then put 0 in speed."

 

[Macka]

This is like arguing that before you should be allowed to play in Super Smash Bros. Brawl tournament, you should be forced to play the entirety of the Subspace Emissary for at least 80 hours per character you use. Competitive Pokemon, ultimately, is about team designing, and battling - not "unlocking" the characters necessary to battle. The rest is simply a matter of expending time without expending any skill.

That's a terrible analogy. In your example, you'd be free to play in the Smash Bros. tournament, you just wouldn't have much of a chance. It's exactly the same in Pokemon: the amount of time and effort you put in will increase your odds of winning. The current system rewards hard work.

As for the removal of IV's, I like that they give each Pokemon some individuality, at least for the story portion of the game. I wouldn't want them removed for that reason, although if they were to come up with some other method of making your Pokemon feel unique during the story (slightly varied colours on Pokemon, for example), I'd be okay with it.

 

[Quest1]

This is like arguing that before you should be allowed to play in Super Smash Bros. Brawl tournament, you should be forced to play the entirety of the Subspace Emissary for at least 80 hours per character you use. Competitive Pokemon, ultimately, is about team designing, and battling - not "unlocking" the characters necessary to battle. The rest is simply a matter of expending time without expending any skill.

Personally, it just motivates me to go play on Showdown!. That way I don't have to complain, and can play the part I enjoy. I'm just pointing out that it's a shame that the games don't provide this facility themselves and I'm forced to use a third-party provider.

The first statement is just an assertion. The second one is partially true in that people will exploit any mechanic, if exploit means "utilize to the fullest extent", but exploiting most mechanics doesn't take tens of hour per Pokemon. Exploiting EVs takes about 30 minutes these days, if not less.

What about in PVP in MMO's? You have to grind a character their before taking it online into battle right? (I'm not sure since I'm super unfamiliar with MMOs) If so, it's the same concept as Pokemon.

And I would argue that a large part of what makes Pokemon Pokemon (even in terms of competitive battling) is the catching, training, breeding aspect and not just battling. What we can agree on is that IVs do put a barrier of entry that seems arbitrary and isn't skill based, but the game needs something to reward training. I think if they removed IVs altogether and made EV's harder to grind, I'd be all for it. I play Showdown too, but because I'm lazy. I think in the VGC, dedication should be rewarded. If someone puts in more time and effort than I do, we shouldn't be on a level playing field. What makes me think that I deserve it?


Edit: didnt see your reply, but we have the same thinking as far as IVs. In terms of RNG in the current games though, I see nothing wrong with it. It's what you have to do to compete.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

That's a terrible analogy. In your example, you'd be free to play in the Smash Bros. tournament, you just wouldn't have much of a chance. It's exactly the same in Pokemon: the amount of time and effort you put in will increase your odds of winning. The current system rewards hard work.

No, not at all. I'd have an excellent chance. Why? Because instead of spending 80 hours in the SSE, I spent that 80 hours practicing against my friends in ordinary Brawl mode. The same thing applies in Pokemon. Instead of spending 80 hours trying to get a perfect Dragonite, I could have spent 80 hours actually practicing battling.

As for the removal of IV's, I like that they give each Pokemon some individuality, at least for the story portion of the game. I wouldn't want them removed for that reason, although if they were to come up with some other method of making your Pokemon feel unique during the story (slightly varied colours on Pokemon, for example), I'd be okay with it.

This is what most people are arguing for - not just a simple abolition of IVs, but their replacement with a superior system.

What about in PVP in MMO's? You have to grind a character their before taking it online into battle right? (I'm not sure since I'm super unfamiliar with MMOs) If so, it's the same concept as Pokemon.

This is a massive reason why I don't play MMOs. I do not have that level of time to commit to an activity that is patently not enjoyable.

And I would argue that a large part of what makes Pokemon Pokemon (even in terms of competitive battling) is the catching, training, breeding aspect and not just battling. What we can agree on is that IVs do put a barrier of entry that seems arbitrary and isn't skill based, but the game needs something to reward training. I think if they removed IVs altogether and made EV's harder to grind, I'd be all for it. I play Showdown too, but because I'm lazy. I think in the VGC, dedication should be rewarded. If someone puts in more time and effort than I do, we shouldn't be on a level playing field. What makes me think that I deserve it?

This is looking at it the wrong way. Instead of "people have spent more hours cycling back on forth on whichever long stretch of road hatches eggs than I have, therefore they should win battles", it should be "people have made better choices in battles, therefore they should win battles". There's still some fairly prevalent level of time dedication in that you have to spend large amounts of your time doing practice battles; but this is acceptable and should be encouraged because what you're doing here is learning about how and when to apply the tools you have available to succeed in battle, rather than simply acquiring the tools in the first place.

 

[The Shadow Knight]

That's a terrible analogy. In your example, you'd be free to play in the Smash Bros. tournament, you just wouldn't have much of a chance. It's exactly the same in Pokemon: the amount of time and effort you put in will increase your odds of winning. The current system rewards hard work.

As for the removal of IV's, I like that they give each Pokemon some individuality, at least for the story portion of the game. I wouldn't want them removed for that reason, although if they were to come up with some other method of making your Pokemon feel unique during the story (slightly varied colours on Pokemon, for example), I'd be okay with it.

Except that your in-battle skills as a player have nothing to do you with your skill at running up and down a whole lot of times hatching eggs.
Customizing your pokemon is definitely a skill. Doing it the in-game way just takes too much time.
Which is why I will be settling for "sub-par" breeds in XY. I simply don't have the time to invest 250 hours of breeding time just to get ready for battle.

 

[Anura]

That's a terrible analogy. In your example, you'd be free to play in the Smash Bros. tournament, you just wouldn't have much of a chance. It's exactly the same in Pokemon: the amount of time and effort you put in will increase your odds of winning. The current system rewards hard work.

As for the removal of IV's, I like that they give each Pokemon some individuality, at least for the story portion of the game. I wouldn't want them removed for that reason, although if they were to come up with some other method of making your Pokemon feel unique during the story (slightly varied colours on Pokemon, for example), I'd be okay with it.

The issue is that the time invested isn't going towards skill but simply leveling the playing field

If you go into training mode in street fighter and practice some links that would be investing time in learning the game
breeding pokemon isn't like that, it hinders the competive aspect of the game

 

[Quest1]

This is looking at it the wrong way. Instead of "people have spent more hours cycling back on forth on whichever long stretch of road hatches eggs than I have, therefore they should win battles", it should be "people have made better choices in battles, therefore they should win battles". There's still some fairly prevalent level of time dedication in that you have to spend large amounts of your time doing practice battles; but this is acceptable and should be encouraged because what you're doing here is learning about how and when to apply the tools you have available to succeed in battle, rather than simply acquiring the tools in the first place.

But I think Pokemon is about acquiring the tools. What's the franchise tagline? Gotta catch 'em all, right? Pokemon isnt just about battling because then you'd just be able to select pokemon from a character select screen. That takes away from what makes the franchise what it is. It's not Showdown, and I don't want it to be. I have no connection with my digital creatures in Showdown because I just selected stats and moves and didnt really have to put in any effort. When I win with my BW2 pokemon, I know that there's hundreds of hours behind those wins. EV training, egg hatching, and practice battling. When it comes together, that's what makes Pokemon what it is. At least that's how I see it. If I'm wrong, I don't want to be right.

 

[Anura]

But I think Pokemon is about acquiring the tools. What's the franchise tagline? Gotta catch 'em all, right? Pokemon isnt just about battling because then you'd just be able to select pokemon from a character select screen. That takes away from what makes the franchise what it is. It's not Showdown, and I don't want it to be. I have no connection with my digital creatures in Showdown because I just selected stats and moves and didnt really have to put in any effort. When I win with my BW2 pokemon, I know that there's hundreds of hours behind those wins. EV training, egg hatching, and practice battling. When it comes together, that's what makes Pokemon what it is. At least that's how I see it. If I'm wrong, I don't want to be right.

That sounds like an entirely personal stance on the subject more so than most

 

[Quest1]

That sounds like an entirely personal stance on the subject more so than most

That it is, and I'm not trying to say I'm absolutely right. Just how I personally look at things.

But. Is competitive Pokemon really only about battling? Should it be?

I don't think it should. Training should be just as important as battling.

 

[Anura]

That it is, and I'm not trying to say I'm absolutely right. Just how I personally look at things.

But. Is competitive Pokemon really only about battling? Should it be?

I don't think it should. Training should be just as important as battling.

Some think it should be. I don't see anything wrong with your stance, so why must you take fault with mine?

If someone wants to skip breeding by RNG abuse more power to them

 

[Quest1]

Some think it should be. I don't see anything wrong with your stance, so why must you take fault with mine?

If someone wants to skip breeding by RNG abuse more power to them

Haha, I think we got twisted up. I'm all for RNG abuse. I think that counts as catching and training. And I don't have any problem with thinking that Pokemon is all about the battles, I just don't completely agree with it. And like i've said a ton of times, I play a lot of Showdown, so I do enjoy battling a lot. The strategy in battles themselves is so deep its a whole other can of worm pokemon. The depth of the game beyond the surface is one of the reasons why I love it so much.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

But I think Pokemon is about acquiring the tools. What's the franchise tagline?

Gotta Pump Out Eggs At The Incestuous Breeding Camp! Pokémon!

 

[Toxi]

The worst part about IVs is that they remove any real "bond" between players and their Pokemon. I have a production line of eggs here, I have no time for shit like caring about my Pokemon.

That's a terrible analogy. In your example, you'd be free to play in the Smash Bros. tournament, you just wouldn't have much of a chance. It's exactly the same in Pokemon: the amount of time and effort you put in will increase your odds of winning. The current system rewards hard work.

This is the shitty MMO way of doing things: "Put in more effort on arbitrary busy-work and you have a better character!" It's only done to force people to play longer on a subscription-based system. Fuck that.

If you want Pokemon to have grinding, make that grinding actually connected to the main systems instead of cycling up and down a road with a Pokemon with Magma Armor in your party.

As for the removal of IV's, I like that they give each Pokemon some individuality, at least for the story portion of the game. I wouldn't want them removed for that reason, although if they were to come up with some other method of making your Pokemon feel unique during the story (slightly varied colours on Pokemon, for example), I'd be okay with it.

How on Earth do they make your Pokemon have more individuality for the story portion of the game? Individuality in the story portion is brought by levels, natures, movesets, abilities, and even EVs. Nobody can even see the effect IVs have until the post-game when they start breeding en masse.

In my current playthrough of Black 2, I have a Koffing with a nature that increases defense and decreases special attack; this is relevant because it has an immediate, tangible, identifiable effect while also changing how I train my Koffing. In contrast, I have no idea what the fuck its EVs or IVs are because the story section of the game doesn't happen in a controlled environment.

 

[Anura]

Haha, I think we got twisted up. I'm all for RNG abuse. I think that counts as catching and training. And I don't have any problem with thinking that Pokemon is all about the battles, I just don't completely agree with it. And like i've said a ton of times, I play a lot of Showdown, so I do enjoy battling a lot. The strategy in battles themselves is so deep its a whole other can of worm pokemon. The depth of the game beyond the surface is one of the reasons why I love it so much.

Ah ok! Lol terribly sorry I guess I did get mixed up

 

[Zeroth]

My issue with IVs in particular is what some people are describing in this thread: putting hours and hours for a chance of getting a pokemon with good IVs. This is why I dislike the system, IVs won't be based on the amount of time you invested to get X pokemon. They are based on a semi-random algorithm that bases itself, on its core, on what time you did X action, not taking in account how many times you've been trying to do that. I really can't think on spending 80 hours breeding the same pokemon as "hard-work" (even if it is certainly a tiring process and I respect people who do it) because it's not much different from spending 80 hours in a casino, in the sense that it doesn't matter for how long you have been playing, you will still have as much chance to win as the granny that just arrived.

People may point out that IV breeding is like hunting for rare items in MMOs, but I think the problem is exactly that: It shouldn't. A rare item will hardly be a deal breaker in whatever you do (in most cases, it tends to be for bragging rights), whereas a Pokemon with inferior Speed IVs will always be at the mercy of pokemons with better IVs. Max IVs are hardly optional for competitive battling, simply because they undermine your pokemon compared to others (in many cases to a point where your skill can't help), and that is the reason it sucks so much. It's certainly possible to reach a point of individuality to all pokemon that doesn't necessarily mean that there are pokemon inherently better than others.

 

[Quest1]

In the current metagame, everyone has to move passed the barrier of entry to compete. Nobody just wakes up with Pokemon with perfect IVs, EVs, Natures, Abilities, etc. Top 8 at Vancouver had to do it. I have to do it and I wasn't in Vancouver. Am I willing to? Once passed that barrier, strategy and skill takeover, but the barrier exists. Again, should it exist? I don't know, maybe not. But we shouldn't call it unfair only because people have already passed that barrier and others haven't. They had to do the same things to get there.

(Unless you hack/Pokegen, which I think most of us can agree is pretty whack.)

EDIT:

It's certainly possible to reach a point of individuality to all pokemon that doesn't necessarily mean that there are pokemon inherently better than others.

Agreed. Any ideas how? I like visually.

Gotta Pump Out Eggs At The Incestuous Breeding Camp! Pokémon!

You know, secretly that's what Breeders in the anime do, and why Brock wants to be the best one. They just don't mask it behind making sure it eats correctly, exercises, is treated well, and has good hygiene.

BTW, how would you guys feel if they made Mon-Amie affect battles in a significant way (which rumors say might be true)?

 

[Toxi]

In the current metagame, everyone has to move passed the barrier of entry to compete. Nobody just wakes up with Pokemon with perfect IVs, EVs, Natures, Abilities, etc. Top 8 at Vancouver had to do it. I have to do it and I wasn't in Vancouver. Am I willing to? Once passed that barrier, strategy and skill takeover, but the barrier exists. Again, should it exist? I don't know, maybe not. But we shouldn't call it unfair only because people have already passed that barrier and others haven't. They had to do the same things to get there.

Nobody is asking for the removal of EVs, natures, abilities, or training. They're asking for the removal of busy-work that adds nothing to the game beyond Hidden Power values.

It's ridiculous how, in order to win at competitive Pokemon, you need to spend more time riding a bike up and down a route than you do actually training and customizing your Pokemon. Nobody likes it, not even the people who do win in that system. I would happily accept a slower leveling system or EV training if it meant the removal of IVs.

 

[Refyref]

I always thought something like Natures would work well as an IV-replacement system. Each Pokemon is better at some things, worse at others.
However, we already have Natures, so...

 

[PreyingShark]

Since it's somewhat relevant to the discussion, I am breeding a new Axew (to breed with a decent Larvitar) and will keep track of how long it takes me. Here's mommy:
https://www.pokecheck.org/?pk=1221105
Here's daddy: https://www.pokecheck.org/?pk=1221111

Mommy has Everstone and Daddy has Power Bracer.

I bet that I will have something good by the evening. If I don't get something nice within 5 hours from this post then I will wear a Jynx avatar for a week.

EDIT: Bump "Don't like each other very much" egg rate for next gen please.

 

[Toxi]

I bet that I will have something good by the evening. If I don't get something nice within 5 hours from this post then I will wear a Jynx avatar for a week.

What's your definition of "nice"? I know this is wrong, but I'm hoping you lose so that I see someone actually lose an avatar bet.

And Jynx is awesome.

 

[Quest1]

Nobody is asking for the removal of EVs, natures, abilities, or training. They're asking for the removal of busy-work that adds nothing to the game beyond Hidden Power values.

It's ridiculous how, in order to win at competitive Pokemon, you need to spend more time riding a bike up and down a route than you do actually training and customizing your Pokemon. Nobody likes it, not even the people who do win in that system. I would happily accept a slower leveling system or EV training if it meant the removal of IVs.

I know, but they are barriers to entry, and technically catching for the right nature is "busy-work," it's just easier busy work than IVs.

But we are in complete agreement, as far as the mechanic of IVs go. I don't like them and I do wish there was a better system in place to provide genetic variation without affecting competition. And I mentioned before that if EV's training was more difficult, not having IV's would be okay, as long as there's someway to produce genetic variation through another mechanic that doesnt affect stats.

 

[PreyingShark]

@Toxi: For this I'm aiming for 31 IVs in Attack and Speed, two defensive stats over 25, and the last defensive stat still being over 20. Not perfect but from my experience it's more than good enough.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Since it's somewhat relevant to the discussion, I am breeding a new Axew (to breed with a decent Larvitar) and will keep track of how long it takes me. Here's mommy:
https://www.pokecheck.org/?pk=1221105
Here's daddy: https://www.pokecheck.org/?pk=1221111

Mommy has Everstone and Daddy has Power Bracer.

I bet that I will have something good by the evening. If I don't get something nice within 5 hours from this post then I will wear a Jynx avatar for a week.

EDIT: Bump "Don't like each other very much" egg rate for next gen please.

"Nice" is 31/31/x/x/x/31 and either Adamant/Jolly, or bust.