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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags
- Thread starter PantherLotus
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Chichikov said:
You've repaired the damage done to my brain by actually arguing with SomeDude. Bless you.
Can I just say one other thing that I find hilarious about SomeDude's plan, other than the inherent racism? He wants to section off the northeast, which has virtually no military power, and cut off federal funds to the south, where most of America's military power is housed. I wonder what's going to happen at that point in his fevered scenario?
Speaking as someone from Texas, which has the second largest GDP in the nation, and also pays in to federal kitty more than it takes out, I personally wouldn't be that worried. We also grow more food, raise more cattle, have more oil, and engage in more international trade than most other states. California and Texas would actually come out of a 50 state break up in pretty good shape.
But shitting on the poorest states in the south, to create some uber-wealthy white enclave...how can anyone not find that offensive? There's a reason secession is largely supported by white supremacists and racists of every stripe.
A linguistics prof I had, George Lakoff, actually wrote a book on the subject. His notion was that conservatives were experts at using language to frame issues: "death tax" vs "estate tax", "pro-life" vs "anti-abortion", "tax relief" vs "tax cut", "job creators" vs "the rich." Their choice of words embodies the concept they're trying to get across; as soon as media (and their opponents!) start using the language, they've already ceded the argument.empty vessel said:
I'm not sure if liberals are simply bad at framing issues, or if the seeming expertise of conservatives is down to their massive media apparatus.
Edit:
An example: http://www.politicalcortex.com/special/Luntz_NAL_Appendix_14_Words
(from Luntz, funny enough)
empty vessel
Member
Cyan said:
Yeah, I've heard of Lakoff and read some of his essays (would have been interesting to take a class from him), but I think it goes deeper than that. It's not just that language is used to frame things and gain an advantage (although it is). It's more that there is a type of person (whether conditioned or not) for whom language--in conjunction with the source from which it learned (trusted authority or not)--is the only thing that matters. Their beliefs are formed exclusively from ideas passed to them by trusted authority figures, and the empirical world is completely irrelevant, even when it is presented to them. This is why (top down) conservative politics requires demonization of the political enemy. That is what ensures that whatever is said by the political enemy (e.g., Obama, a "democrat," a "liberal") will be disregarded, even if what is said merely relates something about the empirical world, i.e., is a "fact," and is not even the expression of a subjective value or preference.
The modern conservative movement was built on the demonization of liberals. Anything that liberals say is wrong. This is also why Republicans are forced to reject any proposal coming from Obama, even if it's a right-wing proposal. It's almost supernatural the control that is being exercised over so many conservative American minds. It's the closest thing I think that we have ever seen to witchcraft or authentic mind control. It's natural, of course, but it's fucking mind-blowing.
jamesinclair
Banned
My next suggestion is for California to secede into two countries.
Edit: Oh shit, wrong account!
Edit: Oh shit, wrong account!
empty vessel
Member
Your sentence was too complete. 3/10.
RustyNails
Member
What SomeDude says is saying is technically correct though. California as it's own country will manage itself better rather than be in the hole for billions in debt. BUT, states shouldn't be allowed to secede just because they can manage themselves better, so I don't agree with secession.jamesinclair said:
RustyNails said:
The problem is that a seceded California would not at all solve the problems SomeDude imagines, because it's a politically divided state. Financially it would be in decent shape, but it would have to split at least in half (and probably into three states) to find some unity of political voice.
PhoenixDark
Banned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RET2Z5AVJ8AClevinger said:
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
It's hard enough for the economy to recovery with all these catastrophic natural disasters getting in the way (oil spill, tsunami) and oil shocks due to middle east revolts but then we start making our own disasters like playing chicken with the debt ceiling. Should consider ourselves lucky that we aren't out in soup lines right now.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...l-debt-limit-plan-fallback-plan.php?ref=fpblg
Reid Aims For GOP Support By Adopting McConnell Debt Limit Plan Fallback Plan
Reid Aims For GOP Support By Adopting McConnell Debt Limit Plan Fallback Plan
faceless007
Member
empty vessel said:
Right-wing authoritarianism. John Dean (Nixon's counsel) wrote a book about it during the Bush admin.
speculawyer
Member
Yeah, splitting in half with North California and South California would merely create two mini Californias . . . Two blue states with deep blue coasts and red central valleys.besada said:
speculawyer
Member
empty vessel said:
My theory is that much of modern politics is based on abortion. Many on the right feel abortion is wrong and thus every policy on the left must also be wrong since it comes from people who think abortion is OK. Thus, even when it goes against their own economic interest, they support right-wing economic policies (and brainwash themselves to believe they are good for them) because obviously those baby-killing lefty policies must be evil.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Signing statement time.deadbeef said:
"I think this bill lets me set the debt ceiling at whatever level I please."
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Freshmaker said:
If it's the same one I read about it gives him the option to increase the ceiling once more sometime next year if he needs it and Congress can only stop him if they have a supermajority vote.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Or Hitokage is Somedude.TacticalFox88 said:
state-of-the-art
Member
Beam said:
TacticalFox88
Banned
Hitokage has multiple personality disorder which manifests into GAF accounts. :OCyan said:
RustyNails
Member
Maybe we are all just a figment of Hitokage's wild imagination :OCyan said:
OMG we posted exact same thought at the same time! GLITCH IN THE MATRIX?TacticalFox88 said:
Of course. Economic growth has been anemic. And because of institutional differences, presidents receive disproportionate blame for poor economic performance. It is an inescapable facet of the presidency. Moreover, our divided government is plagued by gridlock. What have they accomplished? A plethora of continuing resolutions, a budget that was six months overdue, and an extension of certain PATRIOT ACT provisions? Additionally, its actions are manufacturing a crisis that is harming a fragile economy. And while Obama is not responsible for every problem, he is not inculpable.Measley said:That approval rating for Obama is absolutely abysmal. He's only 10 points away from reaching W's territory at the end of his second term.
I concur. It was deficient. In addition to being scant, it consisted of myriad elements that were not rejuvenating. Certainly, it stanched the losses. And it engendered growth, albeit to a limited extent. Likewise, it failed to return the economy to potential real output. Thus, it was partially effective, but it could have been decidedly better.Jonm1010 said:
I hope President Obama has his veto pen ready and his executive order pen ready. Veto whatever social security killing, medicare killing POS hits his desk, invokes the 14th and ends this shit himself. Teabagger heads would explode but like someone said they're already crazy so who cares if they get more crazy.deadbeef said:
The country must not default. That would be catastrophic. And god damn the Republican Congress and especially the teabagger elected freshmen for wasting time putting forth bills they KNOW will never pass.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Holy shit, 30 seconds in and I'm already on the floor laughingOblivion said:
speculawyer
Member
Holy smokes. WTF is that Freakazoid with the wireless mic sideburns who didn't understand the phrase 'social mobility'. What an idiot.Oblivion said:
The problem is: people are dumb.Cyan said:
What the rebublicans do is boil down a complex issue to a simple 2-3 word phrase, and repeat it over and over.
Obama did this with his campaign, and it worked brilliantly. "yes we can"
It is marketing 101. You need simple taglines that get your message across, that people can remember and repeat.
The problem with liberals (and I mean no offense here) is that they love to talk too much. Take our friend emty vessel. I love his posts. But they are very verbose. You actually have to read and think to understand what he is saying. It takes work. Contrast that to the conservative posters here. They mostly post 1 to 2 sentance "factoids" that while often factually untrue, are easy to digest.
You can sit and try an explain complex issues to conservatives, but almost everytime, without fail, they will reply with simple declarations like "50% of american households don't even pay income tax!" then in the next breath bust out "taxes on job creators are too high!"
Bay Maximus
Banned
segarr said:
This is really looking like what it may come down to. There will be a lot of mud thrown the president's way by the tea party and friends but the average American will see him as a saving grace in my opinion. Who know what'll actually happen though.
^ So true Evans. It's sad really, but when it comes to rallying support/votes, you really have to cater to the lowest common denominater many times.
Bay Maximus said:
Voters still blame Bush for getting the economy here. They just haven't been too happy with Obama's management of it, not surprising given the high unemployment.
I think a lot of the 'short attention span' talk is typical Democrat partisan hand wringing from the far left of the party, which would fit most GAFFers. Posters here are very progresive in a country that is centre right, so policy wise, they always feel like they lose.
2012 will be interesting, but how the Dems resolve this debt issue will be telling.
But I don't think the Tea Party is in as strong a position as some say. It really does feel like they've overplayed their hand and if they raise this shit again next year, Obama will just tap into the anger and remind people who got them there, and people won't forget. Old people can be scared with 'Republicans will kill you in your sleep to save the country from borrowing more money from China'
Now, of course, Obama and the Dems could still fuck it up by allowing the BBA deal to get in to the final bill and giving the Tea Party the showdown they want.
Reid, you fucking pussy.
FUCK.
Obama should just use the 14th, this pissing match is beyond pathetic. There's not even a word to describe it. I can't think of one.
What else are you going to do to appease the right, Reid? There's gonna be a back and forth until the last second, until Reid gives up everything the GOP can get out of him. Perhaps even touching the "sacred cows" like Medicare.
Impeachment becomes a possibility, yes, but I really do think Obama needs to risk his Presidency for the good of this country and our financial standing in the world.
Seriously, what an awful time this is to be an American. I feel nauseated. The great experiment has failed, this "democracy" is a rotting piece of shit.
FUCK.
Obama should just use the 14th, this pissing match is beyond pathetic. There's not even a word to describe it. I can't think of one.
What else are you going to do to appease the right, Reid? There's gonna be a back and forth until the last second, until Reid gives up everything the GOP can get out of him. Perhaps even touching the "sacred cows" like Medicare.
Impeachment becomes a possibility, yes, but I really do think Obama needs to risk his Presidency for the good of this country and our financial standing in the world.
Seriously, what an awful time this is to be an American. I feel nauseated. The great experiment has failed, this "democracy" is a rotting piece of shit.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Can't wait for Obama to tell us how amazing this "compromise" is, and how cooler heads prevailed etc etc we can do anything we're America blah blah.
This is like haggling over whether your 15 year old kid can stay out until 3AM or 5AM.
This is like haggling over whether your 15 year old kid can stay out until 3AM or 5AM.
Might as well be an optimist in light of what is probably the most corrupt and incompetent (what a combo) Congress in modern American history.PhoenixDark said:
It doesn't matter if you kicked Obama out and put in Bill Clinton. Bring back JFK, LBJ or FDR; even the juggarnauts of the US Democratic Presidency could not stop these asshats. Seriously.
By getting too upset with Obama (I'm not saying he's perfect in all of this, but he's the last person anyone should be blaming) you are giving the GOP exactly what they want.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Cyan said:
I feel it's more of an intuitive thing than any sort of expertise: it just so happens to be that the alarmist framing techniques of certain factions on the Right fits the sensationalist nature of the 24-hour news cycle like a glove, thus amplifying the conveyance of their message over the last decade--and change--with the rise of Fox News and company.
It's easier to hammer away conservative talking points and keep everyone in check because they are much more simplistic in nature, and that's part of the problem. Keep taxes low, love your wife, praise Jesus, have some kids, keep a steady job. Those are the fundamentals of their social platform more or less, no matter how much they try to dance around it when attempting to market their "solutions". A great deal of Republicans see their religious and political views as nearly one and the same and that has been very effective in streamlining the message and keeping too many people from questioning their party's motives. If no one questions that, you can tie all kinds of contradictory bullshit into the message that defies logic time and time again without fail, because people view it as a reflection of the fundamentals of their political and social points of view.
What it means to be a "Democrat" becomes much more diverse. It ranges from people who are highly liberal in places like San Francisco or NYC to a borderline centrist Republican. Such as the way modern Democratic Presidents have to govern in the face of ultra-right wing opposition (i.e. Obama and Clinton).
What it means to be a "Democrat" becomes much more diverse. It ranges from people who are highly liberal in places like San Francisco or NYC to a borderline centrist Republican. Such as the way modern Democratic Presidents have to govern in the face of ultra-right wing opposition (i.e. Obama and Clinton).
There's no grand secret about the GOP's success in getting out their message. It's clear, concise, and appeals to your emotions. A message with those qualities is very easy to sell if your messaging/marketing machine is decent. The Dems, on the other hand, have a jumble of messages that varies in complexity and have more nuance. Such a message is much harder to sell for obvious reasons. What's frustrating is that it's not like the Dems can't do the same thing. As a poster said above, Obama's "Yes we can" 2008 slogan is a perfect example of a clear, concise message that appeals to the listeners emotions. And it was very successful. Dems need to stop being bogged down with nuance and hoping that there's enough neurons firing between voter's eyes that their message grabs hold of them. Voters are largely uninformed, emotionally susceptible, and intellectually lazy. And if they are given a choice between a simple, short message that's easy to understand and a message that's bogged in nuance and requires some thought to comprehend, which message do you think will grab hold?
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