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[Zzoram]

Michigan just implemented a rule like that as well, and, as a teacher, I agree with you for the most part--tenure allows bad teachers to hang on to their jobs for far too long.

I remember DC wanted to double teacher pay if they gave up their union. The idea being that they could pay good teachers more money, but have the ability to fire any bad teachers who want the money. The union refused to allow their members to even vote for the option, despite many good teachers wanting that extra pay.

 

[Byakuya769]

Shit, I knew it wasn't safe to post here.

Sorry, they made an offer I couldn't refuse.

 

[Piecake]

Damnit. The teachers unions are going to be the death of America. We need to be able to fire bad teachers like people can be fired from just about every other occupation.

There needs to be a way to fire bad teachers, but that responsibility needs to be in the hands of the principal and superintendent. Tying teacher employment and salary to student test scores has to be one of the worst ideas that I have ever heard of.

Is it the teachers fault if you just get unlucky and your class for that year is filled with a bunch of ADHD morons?

 

[Zzoram]

Success also in saving teacher jobs.

Bad teacher jobs.

The fact is, the teacher's union makes it impossible to fire horrible teachers. If they would only reform themselves to fire bad teachers, then there wouldn't be a need to fight the unions.

I have a friend who recently became a teacher. He told me that many schools try to put all their bad teachers in the Vice Principal role to try to keep them away from the kids they would hurt most. However, there are only so many VP spots, so a bunch of bad teachers continue to teach, and they just try to shuffle them into less important classes. It's ridiculous that they can't be fired when everyone (students, teachers, administration) all agree that they are terrible.



I agree that teacher pay shouldn't be tied to test scores. However, I do think that teacher jobs shouldn't be guaranteed for life, despite how bad they are. The unions simply refuse to enable a simple mechanism to remove terrible teachers, resulting in the only option being union busting.

 

[Cyan]

Damnit. The teachers unions are going to be the death of America. We need to be able to fire bad teachers like people can be fired from just about every other occupation.

Man, on the list of things that are going to be the death of America, teachers' unions are... actually, yeah, I don't think they even make the list.

 

[Zzoram]

Man, on the list of things that are going to be the death of America, teachers' unions are... actually, yeah, I don't think they even make the list.

Americans are falling ever behind the world in education. With the world economy switching to more high skill high education jobs, especially in developed countries, so how does America expect to retain it's strong economy with a broken education system? There won't be enough no-education jobs left in a few decades to handle the hordes of students being failed by the education system.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Is it the teachers fault if you just get unlucky and your class for that year is filled with a bunch of ADHD morons?

Exactly what happened to one of my high school Pre-cal teachers. Newly hired in August, he was a fantastic teacher who knew his shit and had a knack for explaining it to others. Unfortunately our class was full of not only lazy dipshits but vindictively smart lazy dipshits. They didn't like that he ran the class like a college course (god forbid in the U.S. school system) where homework wasn't graded and tests constituted the majority of your overall grade. THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THE HOMEWORK. All they had to do was maybe glance over it and ask him to go over some problems the next day and he would.

So they all basically agreed to fail hard then complained to their parents that he wasn't teaching, who then complained to the principal that their little fuckups were failing.

He didn't come back after Christmas.

 

[Plinko]

There needs to be a way to fire bad teachers, but that responsibility needs to be in the hands of the principal and superintendent. Tying teacher employment and salary to student test scores has to be one of the worst ideas that I have ever heard of.

Is it the teachers fault if you just get unlucky and your class for that year is filled with a bunch of ADHD morons?

This right here.

Michigan actually just made some decent changes to that rule. Teacher evaluations will be a combination of student performance, faculty evaluation, and two or three other categories.

I HATE the idea of tying teacher pay to student performance. It's idiotic. If the parents aren't involved, most likely the kids are terrible students. I've seen it time and time again and it never ceases to amaze me how many parents just want nothing to do with their kid's education.

 

[Piecake]

Exactly what happened to one of my high school Pre-cal teachers. Newly hired in August, he was a fantastic teacher who knew his shit and had a knack for explaining it to others. Unfortunately our class was full of not only lazy dipshits but vindictively smart lazy dipshits. They didn't like that he ran the class like a college course (god forbid in the U.S. school system) where homework wasn't graded and tests constituted the majority of your overall grade. THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THE HOMEWORK. All they had to do was maybe glance over it and ask him to go over some problems the next day and he would.

So they all basically agreed to fail hard then complained to their parents that he wasn't teaching, who then complained to the principal that their little fuckups were failing.

He didn't come back after Christmas.

I am definitely in favor of running high school classes like college courses, but I would only do that for AP/honors classes. The guy sounds great, but based on that, I think he made a bad decision considering the make-up of the class (im assuming).

 

[Plinko]

Americans are falling ever behind the world in education. With the world economy switching to more high skill high education jobs, especially in developed countries, so how does America expect to retain it's strong economy with a broken education system? There won't be enough no-education jobs left in a few decades to handle the hordes of students being failed by the education system.

This isn't as bad as you think it's going to be. The way America's economy is headed we aren't going to be having droves of foreign graduates rushing into the country and taking those jobs. That was a valid concern in the 80's and 90's. I don't think that's a huge issue any more. I'm in favor of re-formatting the education system, though.

I would place the massive inflation in college costs and the income gap between the rich and the poor WAY ahead of this concern on the "going to ruin the country" list.

 

[eznark]

Aren't most of the pay-for-performance mandates based on an aggregate of classes/years and not just well, this class suck you're screwed. Whatever the criteria being looked at, the teacher should only be responsible for that classes performance change (not raw scores) while with said teacher.

 

[Big-E]

And that is why the union needs to be there to protect teachers from that shit. Sometimes I wonder if I should just stay in China. Parents there are way better and more understanding.

Aren't most of the pay-for-performance mandates based on an aggregate of classes/years and not just well, this class suck you're screwed. Whatever the criteria being looked at, the teacher should only be responsible for that classes performance change (not raw scores) while with said teacher.

If you are a first year teacher though, you don't have a history. Most teachers I have worked with and talk to all say that teaching is a profession that takes time to get good at. Most of them admit to fucking up or not doing so good early on because you can study and go to school till you are blue in the face but until you have your first real class, you don't really know what you are doing.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I am definitely in favor of running high school classes like college courses, but I would only do that for AP/honors classes. The guy sounds great, but based on that, I think he made a bad decision considering the make-up of the class (im assuming).

I think the current high school model of drowning students in busy work just to increase the number of grades that are averaged and, essentially, make it harder for students to fail is total bullshit.

 

[Jackson50]

It only ends if the Democrats are able to take back the house in 2012 and keep the Senate and Presidency.

I hope President Obama has a good idea as to how he is going to convince the American people to re-elect him given the high unemployment and possibility of a recession that is going to exist at the time, and I hope that the American people remember how much they hated the Republican plans to gut medicare.

His campaign would have to be perfect. An unprecedentedly brilliant campaign that overwhelms the faculties of the public. Otherwise, considering the trajectory of the economy, his prospects have diminished considerably. Moreover, he better pray the GOP throws him a bone and nominates a terrible candidate; sadly, that probably will not happen.

Anyone think the GOP splitting up in the next 10-20 years is possible?

No.

 

[Big-E]

I think the current high school model of drowning students in busy work just to increase the number of grades that are averaged and, essentially, make it harder for students to fail is total bullshit.

I think so too for high school but it is going to take a whole lot of change to start making kids accountable for their work.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

How accurate is this:

Under Bush the republicans ran up all this debt, Obama comes in and does his best to get our economy out from the mess caused by Bush, and all the republicans can do is try to kneecap him. Many Americans are humiliated by this Teabagging outrage. It's as if the republicans ate a big meal, left during desert to avoid paying the check and now want to blame the guy who just ordered the salad.​

 

[Baraka in the White House]

How accurate is this:

Under Bush the republicans ran up all this debt, Obama comes in and does his best to get our economy out from the mess caused by Bush, and all the republicans can do is try to kneecap him. Many Americans are humiliated by this Teabagging outrage. It's as if the republicans ate a big meal, left during desert to avoid paying the check and now want to blame the guy who just ordered the salad.​

I think it'd be more accurate to compare Republicans to a guy who eats a huge meal and an equally enormous desert, chastises his date for ordering a salad, slaps away an antacid before barfing all over the table then threatens to blow up the restaurant if they don't pick up the tab.

 

[eznark]

And that is why the union needs to be there to protect teachers from that shit. Sometimes I wonder if I should just stay in China. Parents there are way better and more understanding.




If you are a first year teacher though, you don't have a history. Most teachers I have worked with and talk to all say that teaching is a profession that takes time to get good at. Most of them admit to fucking up or not doing so good early on because you can study and go to school till you are blue in the face but until you have your first real class, you don't really know what you are doing.

So...why should you expect raises before you are effective?

 

[Piecake]

This isn't as bad as you think it's going to be. The way America's economy is headed we aren't going to be having droves of foreign graduates rushing into the country and taking those jobs. That was a valid concern in the 80's and 90's. I don't think that's a huge issue any more. I'm in favor of re-formatting the education system, though.

I would place the massive inflation in college costs and the income gap between the rich and the poor WAY ahead of this concern on the "going to ruin the country" list.

Yup, the major issue in education, by far, is the absurd cost of college and how it puts most college graduates in severe indebtedness. Definitely not poor high school teachers.

Honestly, a good way to improve high school would to promote trade schools. That way, it removes the kids who really don't want to be there and have no interest in attending college, and trains those kids a useful skill/s so that they can better get a job. Removing the kids who really don't want to be there will also have the benefit of improving the learning environment in high schools and allow teachers to spend more of their time on teaching and on the kids who want to learn instead of trouble makers and kids who dont want to be there

As for college costs, how we change that is we increase taxes to get public universities to at least 10k a year in total costs (5k would be much better since a college student has a good chance of earning that much by working part time and full time in the summer). That way, graduates arent up to their ears in debt and instead of paying 300 a month in student loan repayments, they can actually put that money towards goods and services which would stimulate the economy.

I mean, personally, I would rather increase taxes to college tuition down since that will lower costs instead of having poor college graduates paying the govt or banks by loan repayments. Spreading the costs to everyone will reduce the costs to the individual

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I think it'd be more accurate to compare Republicans to a guy who eats a huge meal and an equally enormous desert, chastises his date for ordering a salad, slaps away an antacid before barfing all over the table then threatens to blow up the restaurant if they don't pick up the tab.

A Republican is merely a guy who eats a meal and enjoys it rather than bitching about the service.

 

[Piecake]

So...why should you expect raises before you are effective?

Because 30k is pitiful?

 

[eznark]

Because 30k is pitiful?

For someone who is apparently years away from being effective at their job? I strongly disagree.

 

[Piecake]

For someone who is apparently years away from being effective at their job? I strongly disagree.

Lets see, to be a teacher, you need a college degree, and a college degree costs what, like 100k? How can anyone afford to be a teacher with that salary and that much debt?

And apparently years away is crap. You make it sound like first year teachers absolutely suck and it will take them 10 years for them to actually be competent. I find that absurd

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Lets see, to be a teacher, you need a college degree, and a college degree costs what, like 100k? How can anyone afford to be a teacher with that salary and that much debt?

100k? no.

 

[Piecake]

100k? no.

Oh, i know it usually costs more than that, but I went with the nice simple number instead

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Oh, i know it usually costs more than that, but I went with the nice simple number instead

No. Less.

 

[Piecake]

No. Less.

Well, youd be wrong then

 

[Y2Kev]

My degree cost a lot more than 100k. I mean it definitely depends on where you go and if you get aid.

 

[eznark]

Lets see, to be a teacher, you need a college degree, and a college degree costs what, like 100k? How can anyone afford to be a teacher with that salary and that much debt?

And apparently years away is crap. You make it sound like first year teachers absolutely suck and it will take them 10 years for them to actually be competent. I find that absurd

Just accepting Big-E's premise.

 

[Measley]

Lets see, to be a teacher, you need a college degree, and a college degree costs what, like 100k? How can anyone afford to be a teacher with that salary and that much debt?

And apparently years away is crap. You make it sound like first year teachers absolutely suck and it will take them 10 years for them to actually be competent. I find that absurd

Depends on the college. My wife an I are teachers. We paid about 60k each for our education. Still, the rest of your post is spot on.

 

[speculawyer]

Still can't believe how quick the left bit on that revenues stuff.

Raising taxes would likely be acceptable, I don't think Moody's stated a preference one way or the other, higher taxes v. Lower spending.

The problem cannot be solved with lower spending alone.
The problem cannot be solved with higher taxes alone.

The people who don't realize this are fucking things up.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Well, youd be wrong then

Depends if you're talking about grad school. My sister paid a lot less by getting her degree at a California state university. Obviously if you go to a private school, depending on how many years it takes you it may be more. But no, one doesn't need to pay 100k for a teachers degree. And yes Kev, depends on where you go.

 

[harSon]

Well, youd be wrong then

Uh, not really. Unless you're going to a private school, going to college out of state or factoring in cost of living, then there's no way a degree cost more 100k.

You could:

1) Go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer to Public State College.
2) Go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer to a Public University
3) Go to a State University for the full 4 years..
4) Go to a Public University for the full 4 years.

None of those should cost $100,000 for a degree. I go to a UC, which is expensive as fuck, and the tuition is still only $10,000 a year. Plus about another $1-2,000 for books.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

The problem cannot be solved with lower spending alone.
The problem cannot be solved with higher taxes alone.

The people who don't realize this are fucking things up.

What's your answer speculawyer?

 

[Piecake]

Just accepting Big-E's premise.

You really misconstrued his premise though. Yea, I'd imagine a lot of first year teachers screw up or do something wrong, but I dont think that necessarily makes them a horrible teacher their first year. Plus, I would imagine that most teachers would learn from their mistakes their first year, do better next year and so on.

You can be decent/good at your job and still make a few mistakes, or be bad/barely competent your first year, learn from your mistakes and greatly improve in your second and third years. Its not some set thing that teachers suck and make a lot of mistakes in their first year and only realize that those were mistakes and actually get good in their 10th

 

[Wall]

His campaign would have to be perfect. An unprecedentedly brilliant campaign that overwhelms the faculties of the public. Otherwise, considering the trajectory of the economy, his prospects have diminished considerably. Moreover, he better pray the GOP throws him a bone and nominates a terrible candidate; sadly, that probably will not happen.No.

To be fair, the situation we find ourselves in is somewhat unprecedented in modern politics. You have a continued depressed economy that began during the term of the previous president, a sharply divided government on ideological lines, and the only clear way out of the economic morass a policy response rejected by controlling elements of both parties as well as a majority of the public. People may have seen what Obama offered and not liked it, but so far it looks like they don't like what the Republicans are offering either - possibly less than what the Democrats are offering. Neither party has an easy sell with public. With the debt deal, all the "low hanging" fruit in terms of cuts are gone, leaving only popular social programs left. In addition, now the policy of cutting the deficit in order to revive the economy has, in terms of propaganda, just as much ownership over economic performance going forward as, for example, using deficit spending to stimulate the economy. With the economy likely slipping into recession during the next two quarters, how much more traction will further cuts have with the public, especially a year after they failed to revive the economy?

That isn't to say that President Obama has an easy sell either. He basically failed at what the voters regarded as his number one job - reviving the economy following the 2007 - 2009 recession and the financial crisis. He needs to explain why the economy continues to be bad, and in doing so draw a meaningful distinction between himself and the Republicans. I don't see how he can avoid doing so, considering the alternative would be running a "stay the course" campaign, which would look absurd considering the economic conditions that will likely exist during the campaign. His biggest challenge will be coming up with an argument to get, not the hardcore progressives or liberals that will vote for him anyway, but the youth, minority, and other disillusioned voters who came out to vote for him in 2008 but did not come out again in 2010 - as well as the "independents" who went over the Republicans but who found themselves at odds with that party over issues like cuts to social programs. In a way, congressional democrats have an easier campaign to wage. All they need to do is pose as defenders of popular programs like Medicare and Medicaid. The big danger to them is that Obama becomes massively unpopular and drags down the ticket.

Finally, I'm not sure what makes you so sure that the Republicans will nominate a "competent" candidate especially considering, no matter how competent they may be, they will be forced to appeal to a base whose policy preferences are out of step with the majority of voters. All of the Republican candidates look like they have flaws.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Uh, not really. Unless you're going to a private school, going to college out of state or factoring in cost of living, then there's no way a degree cost more 100k.

You could:

1) Go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer to Public State College.
2) Go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer to a Public University
3) Go to a State University for the full 4 years..
4) Go to a Public University for the full 4 years.

None of those should cost $100,000 for a degree. I go to a UC, which is expensive as fuck, and the tuition is still only $10,000 a year. Plus about another $1-2,000 for books.

Yep

 

[Piecake]

Uh, not really. Unless you're going to a private school, going to college out of state or factoring in cost of living, then there's no way a degree cost more 100k.

You could:

1) Go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer to Public State College.
2) Go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer to a Public University
3) Go to a State University for the full 4 years..
4) Go to a Public University for the full 4 years.

None of those should cost $100,000 for a degree. I go to a UC, which is expensive as fuck, and the tuition is still only $10,000 a year. Plus about another $1-2,000 for books.

Why wouldnt you factor in cost of living? That is part of the expense of going to college.

 

[Big-E]

Just accepting Big-E's premise.

I didn't mean to say it takes 10 years to get good but you do need a few years under your belt to grow and become better.

 

[Xdrive05]

How accurate is this:

Under Bush the republicans ran up all this debt, Obama comes in and does his best to get our economy out from the mess caused by Bush, and all the republicans can do is try to kneecap him. Many Americans are humiliated by this Teabagging outrage. It's as if the republicans ate a big meal, left during desert to avoid paying the check and now want to blame the guy who just ordered the salad.​

It's Republicans being the "two Santa Clause". They run up the debt by swelling gov't at the same time as cutting taxes (which people love), and then Democrats have to pay that debt to save the system/programs by raising taxes (which people hate). So Republicans get to be the good guys on both sides of the debt problem.

Because of this routine Democrats always have to be on the defense. Hence, the Democratic party is a neutered/male-vagina party - as is evidenced by their constant caving in to the right's demands when their constituents demand otherwise. That's (in part) why Obama and the Dem's barely got anything accomplished when we gave them full control of our gov't. And in the end did their wimpiness help them look any better to the public? I don't think so.

 

[harSon]

Why wouldnt you factor in cost of living? That is part of the expense of going to college.

Unless you're working and staying at home rent free, you'd have cost of living regardless.

 

[besada]

Or, you know, you might have gone to school when tuition wasn't so ridiculous. I'm almost afraid to tell you what a semester at college cost when I was going.

Edit: Looks like you can just about do a degree at UNT (a decent teaching school) for about $60K, assuming you're willing to live like a shlub and you don't have to go for more than four years.

 

[Piecake]

Unless you're working and staying at home rent free, you'd have cost of living regardless.

And? If you were working and living in an apartment you wouldnt have to take out loans to cover your living expenses. College, well, lot of students need to take on student loans to cover their living expenses as well since they simply don't earn enough in their part time job or simply don't have the time to do one. And that adds to their total debt once they graduate from college

 

[Zzoram]

US tuition is ridiculous wtf.

The most expensive 4 year Bachelor's degree in Canada is just under $25,000 total as of this upcoming school year. That translates into $26,000 American. That's doing a full course load for all 4 years.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Sam Stein says dem leadership signed off on the deal in Pelosi's office. Now waiting for Boehner

 

[videogamer]

this is why students should live at home and try to finish in 2-3 years (with AP credits and taking lots of credits per semester)

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

And? If you were working and living in an apartment you wouldnt have to take out loans to cover your living expenses. College, well, lot of students need to take on student loans to cover their living expenses as well since they simply don't earn enough in their part time job or simply don't have the time to do one. And that adds to their total debt once they graduate from college

But that is the case regardless of the degree one goes for. Teachers aren't special in that area. There are many ways to pay less for a degree as one of the other posters pointed out. Start out at a community college and transfer after 2 years is a sure fire way to reduce the costs. State school is another.

 

[Plinko]

this is why students should live at home and try to finish in 2-3 years (with AP credits and taking lots of credits per semester)

I'm going to be pushing this with all of my children.

 

[harSon]

And? If you were working and living in an apartment you wouldnt have to take out loans to cover your living expenses. College, well, lot of students need to take on student loans to cover their living expenses as well since they simply don't earn enough in their part time job or simply don't have the time to do one. And that adds to their total debt once they graduate from college

And? My tuition is on the high end at $11,000 a year (UC Santa Cruz), and considering it's Santa Cruz, the cost of living is also ridiculously high.

Assuming I went here for the full four years ($44,000), factor in the freshman requirement of staying in the dorms (~$12,000 for the school year), factor in the remaining 3 years of off-campus living (My rent is ~$600 per month for a room), books for the four years ($1-2,000 per school year) and food.

44,000 + 13,000 + 14,400 + 4-8,000 = $74-78,000 + whatever food costs you across three years (dorms force you to get a meal plan) which is still going to result in a figure significantly lower than $100,000. And my figures are on the high end of the spectrum. This is also assuming you're not working, receiving scholarships or grants, etc. The majority of bachelors degrees cost MUCH less than $100,000, even with today's high tuition rates.

 

[Piecake]

But that is the case regardless of the degree one goes for. Teachers aren't special in that area. There are many ways to pay less for a degree as one of the other posters pointed out. Start out at a community college and transfer after 2 years is a sure fire way to reduce the costs. State school is another.

Did I say they were? All I am talking about is debt and how its pretty ridiculous to expect a teacher who has a butt load of college debt to live on 30k a year. And since when were we talking about the cheapest way to attend college and not averages? Averages are what we should be talking about and I would bet that that the average college costs is a lot closer to 100k than the 40-60k that you seem to think

And? My tuition is on the high end at $11,000 a year (UC Santa Cruz), and considering it's Santa Cruz, the cost of living is also ridiculously high.

Assuming I went here for the full four years ($44,000), factor in the freshman requirement of staying in the dorms (~$12,000 for the school year), factor in the remaining 3 years of off-campus living (My rent is ~$600 per month for a room), books for the four years ($1-2,000 per school year) and food.

44,000 + 13,000 + 14,400 + 4-8,000 = $74-78,000 + whatever food costs you across three years (dorms force you to get a meal plan) which is still going to result in a figure significantly lower than $100,000. And my figures are on the high end of the spectrum. This is also assuming you're not working, receiving scholarships or grants, etc. The majority of bachelors degrees cost MUCH less than $100,000, even with today's high tuition rates.

Congrats, see above. And no, lots and lots of people do not attend public universities or go to out of state schools. And if you want to know, I actually did attend a state school, but like I said, I am trying to deal in averages, not the cheapest way to attend college