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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags
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Aaron Strife
Banned
He'll be out in 2012.Oblivion said:
Christie Vilsack, baby.
Byakuya769
Member
A friend of mine sent me a link to a list of very interesting Adam Smith quotes. Enjoy.
From the 'favorite quotes: Economics' section of Steve Kangas' excellent website, 'Liberalism Resurgent' (Mr. Kangas died under mysterious circumstances some ten years ago ...)
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/tenets.htm
The real Adam Smith:
Editor's note: conservatives love to portray 18th century radical humanist Adam Smith as the original capitalist defender. In fact, Smith "despised aristocrats, hated capitalists, and wept for the laboring poor," as commentator John Hess so eloquently put it. Conservatives mistake him for their own on the strength of one quote, which introduces the famous concept of the "invisible hand":
"Every individual intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his original intention. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of society more effectively than when he really intends to promote it."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
But here is what Adam Smith really thought:
"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy when part of the members are poor and miserable."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The liberal reward of labor, therefore, as it is the necessary effect, so it is the natural symptom of increasing national wealth. The scanty maintenance of the laboring poor, on the other hand, is the natural symptom that things are at a stand, and their starving condition that they going backwards fast."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The rate of profit... is naturally low in rich and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The subjects of every state ought to contribute toward the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state ....(As Henry Home (Lord Kames) has written, a goal of taxation should be to) 'remedy inequality of riches as much as possible, by relieving the poor and burdening the rich.'"
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"Whenever the legislature attempts to regulate differences between masters and their workmen, its counsellors are always the masters. When the regulation, therefore, is in favor of the workmen, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favor of the masters."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The interest of dealers, however,... is a always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes frm this order ought... never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"In a society of an hundred thousand families, there will perhaps be one hundred who don't labour at all, and who yet, either by violence, or by the more orderly oppression of law, employ a greater part of the labour of society than any other ten thousand in it. The division of what remains, too, after this enormous defalcation, is by no means made in proportion to the labour of each individual. On the contrary those who labour most get least. The opulent merchant, who spends a great part of his time in luxury and entertainments, enjoys a much greater proportion of the profits of his traffic, than all the Clerks and Accountants who do the business. These last, again, enjoying a great deal of leisure, and suffering scarce any other hardship besides the confinement of attendance, enjoy a much greater share of the produce, than three times an equal number of artizans, who, under their direction, labour much more severely and assiduously. The artizan again, tho' he works generally under cover, protected from the injuries of the weather, at his ease and assisted by the convenience of innumerable machines, enjoys a much greater share than the poor labourer who has the soil and the seasons to struggle with, and, who while he affords the materials for supplying the luxury of all the other members of the common wealth, and bears, as it were, upon his shoulders the whole fabric of human society, seems himself to be buried out of sight in the lowest foundations of the building."
-- Adam Smith, first draft of Wealth Of Nations
And here is what Adam Smith thought about labor unions:
"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations (that is, unions or colluding organizations) of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual price."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
From the 'favorite quotes: Economics' section of Steve Kangas' excellent website, 'Liberalism Resurgent' (Mr. Kangas died under mysterious circumstances some ten years ago ...)
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/tenets.htm
The real Adam Smith:
Editor's note: conservatives love to portray 18th century radical humanist Adam Smith as the original capitalist defender. In fact, Smith "despised aristocrats, hated capitalists, and wept for the laboring poor," as commentator John Hess so eloquently put it. Conservatives mistake him for their own on the strength of one quote, which introduces the famous concept of the "invisible hand":
"Every individual intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his original intention. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of society more effectively than when he really intends to promote it."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
But here is what Adam Smith really thought:
"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy when part of the members are poor and miserable."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The liberal reward of labor, therefore, as it is the necessary effect, so it is the natural symptom of increasing national wealth. The scanty maintenance of the laboring poor, on the other hand, is the natural symptom that things are at a stand, and their starving condition that they going backwards fast."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The rate of profit... is naturally low in rich and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The subjects of every state ought to contribute toward the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state ....(As Henry Home (Lord Kames) has written, a goal of taxation should be to) 'remedy inequality of riches as much as possible, by relieving the poor and burdening the rich.'"
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"Whenever the legislature attempts to regulate differences between masters and their workmen, its counsellors are always the masters. When the regulation, therefore, is in favor of the workmen, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favor of the masters."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"The interest of dealers, however,... is a always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes frm this order ought... never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
"In a society of an hundred thousand families, there will perhaps be one hundred who don't labour at all, and who yet, either by violence, or by the more orderly oppression of law, employ a greater part of the labour of society than any other ten thousand in it. The division of what remains, too, after this enormous defalcation, is by no means made in proportion to the labour of each individual. On the contrary those who labour most get least. The opulent merchant, who spends a great part of his time in luxury and entertainments, enjoys a much greater proportion of the profits of his traffic, than all the Clerks and Accountants who do the business. These last, again, enjoying a great deal of leisure, and suffering scarce any other hardship besides the confinement of attendance, enjoy a much greater share of the produce, than three times an equal number of artizans, who, under their direction, labour much more severely and assiduously. The artizan again, tho' he works generally under cover, protected from the injuries of the weather, at his ease and assisted by the convenience of innumerable machines, enjoys a much greater share than the poor labourer who has the soil and the seasons to struggle with, and, who while he affords the materials for supplying the luxury of all the other members of the common wealth, and bears, as it were, upon his shoulders the whole fabric of human society, seems himself to be buried out of sight in the lowest foundations of the building."
-- Adam Smith, first draft of Wealth Of Nations
And here is what Adam Smith thought about labor unions:
"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations (that is, unions or colluding organizations) of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual price."
-- Adam Smith, Wealth Of Nations
ViperVisor
Member
Marcus And Michele Bachmann Explain Marriage
This is mainstream now. The beltway at least watches The Daily Show and Jon did a bit with Jerry Seinfeld last night.
This is mainstream now. The beltway at least watches The Daily Show and Jon did a bit with Jerry Seinfeld last night.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
and don't forget world's biggest terrorist - lupeSomeDude said:
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
So that's your prediction on how this will all turn out?eznark said:
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
SomeDude said:
Derp derpy derp derp derp? You know you love him, ESPECIALLY if he causes Civil War II: Grab Yo shotty and yo Qu'ran, it's Go Time.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
GhaleonEB said:
Yeah, everything he says is a lie or a stretch from reality. Like the whole, oh yeah, "people shot at me too!" bullshit. I don't understand how people can look at him and not think shill.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
All the Wealth of Nations quotes with the Stringer Bell avatar made me laugh
Byakuya769
Member
dave is ok said:
Hahaha.. forgot about that scene.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
eznark said:
heh. Brewers winning the WS is as likely as Mitch McConnell, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and Ann Coulter agreeing on anything...
Smart money is on the Mets.eznark said:
Brent FavreCongressional confirmationThe appropriate temperature for coffeePublic financing of stadiums.The Dropkick MurphysSheila Bair- K-Rod
- How to spell The Dropkick Murphys
- The economy
- Taxation
- National security
- Healthcare
- Climate change
p.s.
I hope I'm wrong, I got money on your fuckers to win the division.
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
Byakuya769 said:
The common theme underlying all these quotes: the "free market" is the ultimate ideal, and market distortions do more than just change prices -- they reduce welfare, as well. Absent the market distortions that allow firms and individuals to reap high profits through arbitrage, consolidation, collusion, and bribery, prosperity would spontaneously emerge from the decentralized activity of selfish actors (the "invisible hand") without any government guidance (the "visible hand"). Morover, everyone would be paid according to his or her productivity, so the poor could not be exploited and differences in wages would perfectly reflect differences in skills. The first quote is completely consistent with the following ones. I wouldn't label Adam Smith a proto-Democrat just yet.
Classical liberals are not particularly fond of big, nasty monopolies and cartels. The difference is that they believe big government => monopolies and cartels, while modern liberals believe small government => monopolies and cartels. (I believe both views are simplistic.)
Some illustrative quotes from Mises, the arch "free market" ideologue of the 20th century:
- "Manufacturing and commercial monopolies owe their origin not to a tendency immanent in capitalist economy but to governmental interventionist policy directed against free trade and laissez-faire."
- "It is a grotesque distortion of the true state of affairs to speak of monopoly capitalism instead of monopoly interventionism and of private cartels instead of government-made cartels."
Byakuya769
Member
Goya said:
Yea ok.
Looks like Obama might be getting better at this negotiations thing.
They're being jerked around, so they're scaling back the concessions day by day, which is the exact opposite of what we've seen so far.
And Reid states the obvious about Cantor:
When you're in the midst of extended, hard-fought negotiations and discover the other side has been negotiating in bad faith, do you (a) forgive and forget; (b) retract your own previous concessions; or (c) walk away from the table?
As it became publicly apparent this week Republicans were not acting in good faith in the debt ceiling negotiations -- so apparent that even deep denial about the previous strong evidence of bad faith was no longer a sufficient buffer to reality -- I was curious which of those strategies the White House would choose.
We might have a clue from a Republican aide complaining Wednesday evening that the White House was going backwards on the size of the spending cuts it was willing to accept:
"Thursday it was $2 trillion, Monday it was $1.7-1.8 trillion, Tuesday it was $1.6-1.7-1.8 trillion. This morning our staff met with White House folks and the wrap-up from that meeting said that the White House is now at $1.5 trillion."
We need more evidence to be sure -- and the GOP aide's account needs to be treated with some skepticism -- but it's suggestive the White House is going with option (b). Obama's rationale would be simple and sound: The more you jerk me around, the higher the cost of reaching a deal.
As it became publicly apparent this week Republicans were not acting in good faith in the debt ceiling negotiations -- so apparent that even deep denial about the previous strong evidence of bad faith was no longer a sufficient buffer to reality -- I was curious which of those strategies the White House would choose.
We might have a clue from a Republican aide complaining Wednesday evening that the White House was going backwards on the size of the spending cuts it was willing to accept:
"Thursday it was $2 trillion, Monday it was $1.7-1.8 trillion, Tuesday it was $1.6-1.7-1.8 trillion. This morning our staff met with White House folks and the wrap-up from that meeting said that the White House is now at $1.5 trillion."
We need more evidence to be sure -- and the GOP aide's account needs to be treated with some skepticism -- but it's suggestive the White House is going with option (b). Obama's rationale would be simple and sound: The more you jerk me around, the higher the cost of reaching a deal.
They're being jerked around, so they're scaling back the concessions day by day, which is the exact opposite of what we've seen so far.
And Reid states the obvious about Cantor:
Harry Reid Says 'Childish' Eric Cantor Shouldnt Be At The Negotiating Table
House Majority Leader Eric Cantor has shown he shouldn't be at the table and Republicans agree he shouldn't be at the table, Reid said on the Senate floor this morning citing articles with Cantors fellow Republicans saying Cantor has been childish in the negotiations. He has walked out on the meetings with the Vice President of the United States. It was childish. Another Republican said Cantor is putting himself first. He said this -- quote -- he is all about Eric.
House Majority Leader Eric Cantor has shown he shouldn't be at the table and Republicans agree he shouldn't be at the table, Reid said on the Senate floor this morning citing articles with Cantors fellow Republicans saying Cantor has been childish in the negotiations. He has walked out on the meetings with the Vice President of the United States. It was childish. Another Republican said Cantor is putting himself first. He said this -- quote -- he is all about Eric.
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
Byakuya769 said:
I read that quote. That's yet another example of devious capitalists acquiring an unfair advantage by bribing venal politicians. Note what I said:
"Absent the market distortions that allow firms and individuals to reap high profits through arbitrage, consolidation, collusion, and bribery..."
A disclaimer: I'm not a libertarian, conservative, free-market worshipper, etc, nor do I endorse Adam Smith or Mises's (ugh) point of views. I just don't like sloppy historical revisionism.
I am glad for the drop, but take it with some caution:Jackson50 said:
The headline decline in jobless claims is good news though there's special factors at play that cloud the July 9 week. Initial claims fell 22,000 to an as-expected level of 405,000 but the period is a shortened one that includes the July 4 holiday (prior week revised upward to 427,000). Another factor is uncertainty over the week-to-week timing of shutdowns, including auto retooling, in the manufacturing sector, a seasonal factor that lowers claims after adjustment and always makes for uncertain readings at this time of year. One factor that is clearly inflating claims is the government shutdown in Minnesota which added 11,500, before adjustment, to the week's total.
http://bloomberg.econoday.com/byshoweventfull.asp?fid=446488&cust=bloomberg-us&year=2011#top
They may be volatile over the next few weeks.
Invisible_Insane
Member
It is about goddamned time.GhaleonEB said:
Re: unemployment filings: Minnesota government employees become eligible for unemployment benefits after they get paid this week, so that number is almost certainly going to spike.
Byakuya769
Member
Goya said:
The problem is much of what you said is directly contradicted by the quotes you read.
He mentions public land, progressive taxation, and support of labor unions.
What is being revised here?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Clevinger said:
That's a shitty statement to make. So what you're saying is that at ALL times Obama is always going to say and do the wrong thing while negotiating.
There can actually be times where you would like what Obama will say or do during negotiations. Now you may hate them again the next day, but it's not like the guy can't do or say one thing that Lawrence or any other liberal could agree to.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
gcubed said:
In which case the odds change to 150:1
Dayton caved
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/...-dayton-agrees-republican-budget-july-14-2011
Must have been the beer shortage
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/...-dayton-agrees-republican-budget-july-14-2011
Must have been the beer shortage
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
Byakuya769 said:
He doesn't support labor unions. He says "combinations of masters" (a.k.a. monopolies, cartels, trade associations, etc.) are just as bad as "combinations of workmen" (a.k.a labor unions). Which, by the way, is an observation that still holds true today.
In general he reprises "masters and merchants" (a.k.a. capitalists) for colluding with politicians, landed aristocrats, and each others to gain unfair advantages over others. They use these advantages to collect exorbitant rents and avoid paying their fair share of taxes.
By the way, by "the free market" I don't mean a "laissez-faire economy." I mean "perfect competition," i.e. no firm has market power. This is what Adam Smith held as the ultimate but perhaps unattainable ideal - not "let corporations do as they please! the market will correct itself!"
Byakuya769
Member
Goya said:
I admittedly overreached on the labor portion. However, you failed to touch on the other areas I mentioned. Also, I'm not seeing the negative attitude towards government that you seem to be implying, when many of the quotes are speaking of regulations as a way to curtail the influence of capitalist. I am just not quite understanding what you're actually taking issue with. How do you perceive that his views are being revised?
So, US PoliGAF, I haven't been following the circus of crazy recently:
- Do the Republicans still seem batshit crazy?
- Has Bachmann gained any traction?
- Does Romney still only seem to be the only one who shouldn't seek mental help?
- Does it still look like Obama will win no matter what?
- Do the Republicans still seem batshit crazy?
- Has Bachmann gained any traction?
- Does Romney still only seem to be the only one who shouldn't seek mental help?
- Does it still look like Obama will win no matter what?
Invisible_Insane
Member
Yes, it's too early, yes, no.Meadows said:
speculawyer
Member
I don't know if he is gay. But he sure sets off my not-so-accurate gaydar.Measley said:
I'd say: Yes, yes, Huntsman & Gary Johnson seem sane, and No! . . . not at all.Meadows said:
RustyNails
Member
Obama > GOP and DEMs, voters want tax increases for wealthy in the budget deal, blame the bad economy on Bush, and will blame GOP if debt ceiling is not raised
In a Yes or No question, I also disapprove the way Obama is handling the economy in the sense that I want him to do more rather than acquiesce to GOP's fantasy demands. But more importantly, GOP is playing with fire here.
Manmademan
Member
Meadows said:
*The crazy ones tend to get the most press. Romney and Huntsman aren't bad per se but there isn't really much narrative or enthusiasm about either.
*Bachmann is gaining traction, but its too early to say whether or not that traction is sustainable.
*Huntsman is also reasonable, but has no support.
*"no matter what" is a stretch. He still polls better than all known republican challengers right now, and has a substantial fundraising advantage none of the republicans will be able to match. He COULD lose, but against this crop it's not very likely at this point.
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