PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
And the fact that Romney didn't means that at the time he implicitly approved of what Bain was doing. This is what we mean by responsibility, and this is what he's now trying to shirk.
Romney owned the company and maintained a title of directorial control. Romney approved of what Bain was doing under the supervision of his subordinates. Therefore Romney is responsible for Bain's activities during that period.
How does the sole owner of the company have no responsibility?
So who is responsible? the 26 managers in the company? who actually did the CEOs job?
What other reason would Romney have? Did you think Romney has his $100 million IRA by putting in the max $6000 a year?
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
I'm sorry but either you haven't read enough about the case, or you're just arguing for the sake of it. Romney announced his resignation of Bain Capital in 2001 and by 2002 had nothing to do with the firm.
The firm had 18 partners at the time he left. In such an organization, a CEO is mostly just a figurehead, or a title the owner takes for the fuck of it.
I don't know. I don't know enough about US tax law which is why I ask.
I'm the CEO of a NZ company that I am also a major shareholder of and on the board of directors. But that isn't for tax reasons, nor would I get any real tax benefit if I was an absentee CEO but still continued to draw a salary.
Officerrob
Banned
Yet at the end of the day, the buck stops with him.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
SouthernDragon
Member
In business school it's generally understood that if you are in charge, you hold some degree of responsibility about what happens under your watch. If you hold the titles and draw a paycheck, it's your responsibility at some point.
Problem is, Romney tried to argue that he WAS in charge in order to be eligible for governorship of Massachusetts. Now he's arguing that he wasn't so it doesn't damage his candidacy for the Presidency. He's trying to have it both ways, again.
Problem is, Romney tried to argue that he WAS in charge in order to be eligible for governorship of Massachusetts. Now he's arguing that he wasn't so it doesn't damage his candidacy for the Presidency. He's trying to have it both ways, again.
I'm just coming to the simplest explanation. A independently wealthy person would have few reasons to pay himself salary from his own company other than the fact that salary gets counted as expense and not taxed, he would personally get taxed on it but I'm sure he weaseled out of that too.
To put things in context, either Mitt Romney has been contributing to his IRA for the last 17000 years at the legally allowed max, or Mitt Romney has been contributing the max since he was born AND got an amazing 25541% return on investment, or he is gaming the system.
Dominican Power
Member
wrong thread. sorry.
or to be more specific, a flip flop! except unlike a lot of his flips, this one is enforced through legal documents.
Dude, the NBA OT is that way ->
Sure. Romney didn't commit a felony -- I don't think anybody really thought he did.* Nor did he necessarily make any decisions for Bain. These points aren't really being argued by anything in this thread. But he had the legal power to make those decisions, and the legal responsibility for them once they had been made -- and he COULD HAVE, at any time, made those decisions if he wanted to, so he doesn't get to say "well, you can't blame me," because we totally can. If you're sitting in the driver's seat of a car, you don't get to wave off responsibility for an accident by explaining that you had the guy in the passenger's seat turning the wheel for you.
Jobs was never tried. The SEC declined to file charges against him, and waived enforcement against Apple in exchange for Apple's cooperation and investigation. So this isn't really true at all.
* Well, he didn't commit THIS SPECIFIC felony, anyway.
Another way Romney's trying to have it both ways: here's him explaining why it's OK for him to take credit for the jobs created while he had little to do with the company. About 2:40 or so into it. Outsourcing!? You can't blame me for that!
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
PhoenixDark
Banned
Even if you believe this story is all smoke no fire, you must admit Romney imploded today. His entire campaign dropped the ball ALL DAY.
And given how much shit was revealed/leaked hour by hour today, by monday we just might have even more damning stuff. If his best response is to attack Obama and continue to withhold tax information, this is gonna be one long ugly campaign. Good luck with that bro...
And given how much shit was revealed/leaked hour by hour today, by monday we just might have even more damning stuff. If his best response is to attack Obama and continue to withhold tax information, this is gonna be one long ugly campaign. Good luck with that bro...
Vestal
Junior Member
I guess we could make this same Argument for POTUS... I mean he has a full cabinet, he might aswell just sit back and relax.. Spend his 4 years at camp david right?
Either way he is fucked. Either he sat back and did nothing as head of a Company, or he lied through his teeth and actively ran the company.
worldrunover
Member
Too bad there wasn't one plausible primary candidate who could tie his own shoes without taking a dump on camera, then maybe this would have come out 6 months ago.
Gingrich, Satorum, and pill head Rick Perty were able to make Romney sweat in debates. He's spent the last two months getting assaulted and giving piss poor responses to every single issue. The saying goes "if you're responding, you're losing" applies here, but it's shocking just how bad Romney's team has been at figuring out what's going around them. How have they learned absolutely nothing?
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
And 45% of the electorate will vote for him no matter what.
SouthernDragon
Member
At this point, the only thing that will matter are the debates.
Obama will not make any major missteps. The campaign is too disciplined for that.
Romney can continue stepping in shit and it won't matter. His base hates Obama too much for that, and major news outlets have no interest other than painting this race as "close".
Massive amounts of money invested with diminishing returns means that 100+ million dollars per candidate will only serve to cancel the other guy out.
From here on out, it's the debates.
Any interesting policy stuff recently? That's when I tend to learn stuff from NeoGAF. How is it that some of you guys know so much? Blows my mind.
They've been ensconced in an environment that's convinced them that Obama is genuinely hated, Republicans are admired, and that the White House is ripe for the taking with only the right messaging to get them there. Of course they are going to make mistakes.
Obama will not make any major missteps. The campaign is too disciplined for that.
Romney can continue stepping in shit and it won't matter. His base hates Obama too much for that, and major news outlets have no interest other than painting this race as "close".
Massive amounts of money invested with diminishing returns means that 100+ million dollars per candidate will only serve to cancel the other guy out.
From here on out, it's the debates.
Any interesting policy stuff recently? That's when I tend to learn stuff from NeoGAF. How is it that some of you guys know so much? Blows my mind.
They've been ensconced in an environment that's convinced them that Obama is genuinely hated, Republicans are admired, and that the White House is ripe for the taking with only the right messaging to get them there. Of course they are going to make mistakes.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
What could they learn? He is a terrible candidate amongst bad candidates, at least Santorum would have just been running on his crazy ideas, not his shady ass background.
Anybody who thought he had a chance was only fooling himself. I have been saying that from the start and I continue to do so. I thought he looked very competent in 2008 and thought he was much better than McCain, but he has gone full retard in the last year.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this, and that I'm not going crazy or something. I remember him sounding pretty reasonable back in 08, and I think back then I would have had an actual choice if he were the nominee. I think ultimately I still would have gone Obama, but I may have paused a bit back then. I remember being pretty impressed with him compared to the other candidates and being kind of disappointed they went with McCain. Now, though... man... He's gone so far I feel like I'm the crazy one for ever thinking those things about him.
I don't see any "surprises" hurting Obama going forward. He's been vetted by the media since 2007. Middling economic growth doesn't appear to hurt him enough to cause me to worry greatly especially since they seem to be armed with a response to any bad news to change the focus toward Mitt. Obama's team has been preparing to go against Romney for a long, long time and it clearly shows.
Congress isn't and hasn't been doing jack shit. Very boring two years from a policy perspective. Thanks, Republicans. There are a few interesting bits out there about the consequences of states not enacting the Medicaid expansion, and here's a good summary of the first year of the CFPB.
I've been out of the loop due to vacation, but looking around my usual news outlets, it looks like Congress is in its usual stalemates and electoral jousting. Really boring stuff, IMO.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I just want to point out that Romney was the presumptive 2012 Republican nominee the day McCain lost, that everything else is a sideshow, and that all of this stuff about Romney is really just confirmation of what we already knew: he's the worst possible candidate at the worst possible time. A really really rich, outsourcing, privileged, New England financier that will say anything to get elected.
I've probably typed more or less of the above in these threads at least a dozen times by now, and it's no less true now than it was then. THEY PICKED THE WORST POSSIBLE GUY!
What, was Palin/Plumber booked? Couldn't put together a Cheney/Cheney ticket? Did the committee of unlikeable and inappropriate candidates have a meeting and say, no, I think we got this?
Somebody wasn't thinking, and despite the prevailing wisdom that the party will double down on tea nuttery, I think those goofballs will be snuffed out fairly quickly. They'll still have their own little wing of the GOP (it's across the lawn from where us libs keep our PETA members), but in a weird way I'm looking forward to quality Republican discourse. Because I've never heard it.
I've probably typed more or less of the above in these threads at least a dozen times by now, and it's no less true now than it was then. THEY PICKED THE WORST POSSIBLE GUY!
What, was Palin/Plumber booked? Couldn't put together a Cheney/Cheney ticket? Did the committee of unlikeable and inappropriate candidates have a meeting and say, no, I think we got this?
Somebody wasn't thinking, and despite the prevailing wisdom that the party will double down on tea nuttery, I think those goofballs will be snuffed out fairly quickly. They'll still have their own little wing of the GOP (it's across the lawn from where us libs keep our PETA members), but in a weird way I'm looking forward to quality Republican discourse. Because I've never heard it.
airmangataosenai
Member
Posted yet?
http://factcheck.org/2012/07/romneys-bain-years-new-evidence-same-conclusion/
Basically it says "We aren't changing our mind because we trust Romney. Why would he lie to us!?"
http://factcheck.org/2012/07/romneys-bain-years-new-evidence-same-conclusion/
Basically it says "We aren't changing our mind because we trust Romney. Why would he lie to us!?"
PhoenixDark
Banned
It's looking like the Obama folks have been preparing for Romney for years.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
you don't say
TacticalFox88
Banned
Of course. The material writes itself. They probably have attacks ads ready like nuclear warheads waiting to receive launch codes.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Gee, you'd almost call them the perfect campaign.
Tell us something we don't know. I'm more than certain Obama and his staff were ready for ANY of the republican nominees.
I thought he used to be a very reasonable republican as well. Boy have times changed.....
empty vessel
Member
No, just as we wouldn't hold a CEO accountable for unauthorized and unforeseeable acts of employees. We're talking about the official acts of a corporation. Yes, the CEO is always, always, always accountable. And, yes, Obama is always, always, always accountable for official White House acts.
By the way, you are supposed to be a proponent of accountability. Is that another conservative idea that depends on whether one is rich or poor?
PhoenixDark
Banned
I still think Obama will sink with the economy, but Romney is looking pathetic right now. The buck passing and goal post moving today was beyond un-presidential
Aaron Strife
Banned
Of course you do.
But if the Bain attacks stick, do you think an opportunistic CEO who either (a) did nothing and collected a six-digit salary or (b) invested in companies that outsourced jobs or (c) profited off of companies' failures or (d) all of the above, is going to look like that much better of an alternative? Yes, the election is a referendum on the president, but America isn't going to replace a turd with a big pile of shit.
And that's assuming the economy does get worse.
I know you often accuse Obama of not being able to run on his record, but if you take away Bain Capital and his tenure as governor (his signature achievement being Protobamacare), what the hell does Romney have?
Well, in a sense. I suspect some of the plans were a little more detailed than others.
* Perry: keep putting him in situations where he has to identify specific branches of government
* Santorum: donate money to his campaign and encourage him to make ads talking about his platform and beliefs
* Cain: race card
Read lots of news sites and blogs, every single day. It took me years to have a pretty good understanding of the nitty gritty regarding our political system (since 2008). Hell, I remember reading poligaf when Arlen Specter defected to the dems side and was wondering what the hell the big deal was at the time. :lol
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
:lol :lol
He was the CEO, president, and director, in addition to owner
So in this topic I learned that some people think you can have your cake and eat it too. Romney holds every title relevant to a position of responsibility @ Bain from 1999-2001, yet he can somehow absolve himself of that responsibility by saying "er, but I was, like, in Utah! Totally not my problem!"
such contortionists in this world we have
such contortionists in this world we have
Yeah. I don't see anything else that would greatly impact the race at this point. The HCR SC ruling was probably the last chance for a huge shakeup, but John Roberts screw that up for Romney. ACA being overturned entirely sure would have been helpful for Romney right now. I guess Romney can hope Obama screws up at the debates, but it would be a faint hope.
I can't wait until Romney ends his shitty POTUS term and his defenders go, "Look, he was only President of the United States. All that other stuff was because of Congress and the Justice Department and his cabinet. He only signed some papers here and there."
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