Support NeoGAF

[codhand]

That's your perception and ultimately you are making a choice based on that perception. Feels good, eh?

It's my "perception" that most 30 year olds should probably have some type of health insurance? Yes, absolutely. Good luck with catastrophic coverage deductibles, when your "$1000 ambulance ride" turns into $4000.

Why make a choice when your President can tell you what you should do?

The mandate was a Republican idea, I know, I know, you're shielded from criticism by being libertarian, fine, but don't act as though the mandate on Obama's part was meant as anything other than a compromise to get the legislation to pass. What's the libertarian health care plan again?

 

[benjipwns]

It's my "perception" that most 30 year olds probably should probably have some type of health insurance? Yes, absolutely. Good luck with catastrophic coverage deductibles, when your "$1000 ambulance ride" turns into $4000.

If we have that now, why enrich insurance companies?

 

[RustyNails]

For people who want to know exactly what Obamacare is, read this.

5 year olds who want to know exactly what Obamacare is, read this.

Bob: Hi, insurance company. I'd like to buy some health insurance.

Insurance company: No. You had cancer when you were 3 years old, and the cancer could come back. We're not selling you health insurance.

Bob: It's not my fault I got cancer when I was three! Besides, that was years ago!

Insurance company: If we sell insurance to you, we'll probably lose money, and we're not doing it.

Bob: But I need insurance more than anyone! My cancer might come back!

Insurance company: We don't care. We're not selling you insurance.

Obama: Hey, that's totally not fair. Bob is right, he does need insurance! Sell Bob some insurance.

Insurance company: If we have to, I guess.

Mary: This is cool. Obama said the insurance company has to sell insurance to anyone who needs it.

Sam: Hey, I have an idea. I'm going to stop paying for health insurance. If I get sick, I can always go buy some insurance then. The insurance company won't be able to say no, because Obama's told them they have to sell it to anyone who needs it!

Dave: that's a great idea! I'm not paying for health insurance either, at least not until I get sick.

Insurance company: Hey! If everyone stops paying for insurance, we'll go bankrupt!

Obama: Oh come on Sam and Dave, that's not fair either.

Dave: I don't care. It saves me money.

Obama: Oh for god's sake. Sam, Dave, you have to keep paying for health insurance, and not wait until you're sick. You too, Mary and Bob.

Mary: But I'm broke! I can't buy insurance! I just don't have any money.

Obama: Mary, show me your piggy bank. Oh, wow, you really are broke. Ok, tell you what. You still have to buy insurance, but I'll help you pay 95% of the cost.

Mary: thank you.

Obama: I need an aspirin.

Insurance company: We're not paying for that aspirin.

 

[eznark]

The mandate was a Republican idea, I know, I know, you're shielded from criticism by being libertarian, fine, but don't act as though the mandate on Obama's part was meant as anything other than a compromise to get the legislation to pass. What's the libertarian health care plan again?

Who fucking cares whose idea it was? The mandate is fuck-awful no matter who is doing the mandating. I was in Massachusetts when Romney forced it down the states throat, trust me I wasn't a fan then either.

Asking me for a "libertarian" health care plan assumes that I think providing, regulating or subsidizing health care is within the purview of the government.

 

[benjipwns]

Asking me for a "libertarian" health care plan assumes that I think providing, regulating or subsidizing health care is within the purview of the government.

Come on man, these guys are arguing for mandating you to buy something from a massive corporation, just as Obama argued against.

Aren't Ayn and David and Charles telling you to get on board?

 

[RustyNails]

I would say the current form of healthcare system in US without Obamacare provisions (and other low-income provisions) is a pretty solid Libertarian plan.

 

[eznark]

Then you wouldn't know much about the vast subsidies and regulations which essentially force businesses to provide health care.

In my ideal world, there would be no employer provided health care. It restricts choice and encourage consumer complacency and idiocy. However, the tax code essentially mandates it.

Come on man, these guys are arguing for mandating you to buy something from a massive corporation, just as Obama argued against.

Aren't Ayn and David and Charles telling you to get on board?

Shoot, let me go consult my Ayn Rand reader. Oh no! The Fountainhead doesn't have an index!

 

[benjipwns]

In my ideal world, there would be no employer provided health care. It restricts choice and encourage consumer complacency and idiocy. However, the tax code essentially mandates it.

Well, that's not very libertarian, what if I want to give it to my employees to attract them from other businesses?!?

Shoot, let me go consult my Ayn Rand reader. Oh no! The Fountainhead doesn't have an index!

It's in one of the rape parts, I think. I assume you have post-its on those parts like a good libertarian.

 

[eznark]

Well, that's not very libertarian, what if I want to give it to my employees to attract them from other businesses?!?

It's in one of the rape parts, I think.

Go nuts, where did I say the government wouldn't let businesses pay for insurance? My problem is with the government inceitivization of such a practice.

 

[ToxicAdam]

It's my "perception" that most 30 year olds probably should probably have some type of health insurance? Yes, absolutely. Good luck with catastrophic coverage deductibles, when your "$1000 ambulance ride" turns into $4000.

What percentage of 30 year old males actually use their plan to cover major medical bills?

 

[benjipwns]

Go nuts, where did I say the government wouldn't let businesses pay for insurance? My problem is with the government inceitivization of such a practice.

Was just checking your "true libertarian" status, it's not like I can see your decoder ring or monocle on GAF.

 

[eznark]

Was just checking your "true libertarian" status, it's not like I can see your decoder ring or monocle on GAF.

Nothing more enjoyable than trying to gotcha a libertarian.

 

[PantherLotus]

This page is an amazing preview into the hysteria that will result from the decision.

 

[Fox318]

Nothing more enjoyable than trying to gotcha a libertarian.

You just may see the light yet!

 

[benjipwns]

Nothing more enjoyable than trying to gotcha a libertarian.

What's next a volunteer fire fighting force?!?

 

[Diablos]

SCOUTS knows how to troll.

Nothing will change between now and Monday and yet they make us wait.

Howard Dean wants the mandate to get thrown out:

“I don’t give a damn about the individual mandate. I think it was a foolish thing to do anyway, but then I hope it does get thrown out.”

I guess he thinks the GOP will seriously consider single-payer. Nub.

 

[eznark]

You just may see the light yet!

It's a libertarian's favorite pass time. Christ, Matt Welch advocated for single payer a few years ago. There's no such thing as libertarian dogma.

What's next a volunteer fire fighting force?!?

I don't get the joke? All the departments here are volunteer.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Nothing more enjoyable than trying to gotcha a libertarian.

Agreed. You can't defeat someone who is voting for Gary Johnson. They've already reached the bottom

 

[eznark]

Agreed. You can't defeat someone who is voting for Gary Johnson. They've already reached the bottom

 

[benjipwns]

Agreed. You can't defeat someone who is voting for Gary Johnson. They've already reached the bottom

MEET ME SOMEWHERE

 

[Fox318]

Agreed. You can't defeat someone who is voting for Gary Johnson. They've already reached the bottom

You would need a ladder just to reach the bottom.

Oh god

I just hope the Libertarian debate doesn't have the 5 hour Air Force 1 talk it did in 2008.

 

[Learn2read]

More of this plzthnx

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said Thursday that an effort by House Republicans to pass a resolution finding Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress is really about his efforts in opposition to GOP-backed voting laws that Democrats consider forms of voter suppression.

“It’s really important to note how this is connected with some of their other decisions. It is no accident. It is no coincidence that the Attorney General of the United States is the person responsible for making sure that voter suppression does not happen in our country, that issues that relate to the civil liberties of the American people are upheld,” Pelosi said.

“These very same people holding in contempt are part of a nationwide scheme to suppress a vote. They are closely aligned with those who are suffocating the system, special interests, secret money, and they are poisoning the debate. They are poisoning the debate with that money. And so what does the average citizen say? They throw up their hands and they say, a pox on both your houses, and that is a victory for the special interest,” Pelosi continued.

Holder’s Justice Department has opposed voter ID laws passed in several states as well as measures in Florida to both shorten early voting periods and purge suspected non-citizens from the voter rolls.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

For people who want to know exactly what Obamacare is, read this.

5 year olds who want to know exactly what Obamacare is, read this.

This is such a clusterfuck.

 

[benjipwns]

I just hope the Libertarian debate doesn't have the 5 hour Air Force 1 talk it did in 2008.

What Libertarian debate? That was back at the start of May.

 

[codhand]

What percentage of 30 year old males actually use their plan to cover major medical bills?

Myself, for recent kidney stones, my roommate for shoulder and three separate knee surgeries.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

That's your perception and ultimately you are making a choice based on that perception. Feels good, eh?

that choice has consequences on all. If you're making choices that influence other people's medical costs, you best bet other people can and will tell you your choice is wrong, and they have every right to make you not push your costs on them

What percentage of 30 year old males actually use their plan to cover major medical bills?

The percentage of those that have it and don't use it is irrelevant.
The percentage of those that don't have it, but need medical care IS relevant.

 

[Chichikov]

More of this plzthnx



Holder’s Justice Department has opposed voter ID laws passed in several states as well as measures in Florida to both shorten early voting periods and purge suspected non-citizens from the voter rolls.

Who cares if it's partisan hackery?
For once, we can harness that crap to do some good, and we should.

And Pelosi is putting party ahead of country (I know I shouldn't be surprised when that happen in DC, and I'm not, but I'm going to keep on calling that bullshit out).

 

[benjipwns]

that choice has consequences on all. If you're making choices that influence other people's medical costs, you best bet other people can and will tell you your choice is wrong, and they have every right to make you not push your costs on them

You realize that this is making the libertarian argument right? That no one should be forced to pay for others costs and instead they should be responsible for themselves or charity.

Otherwise you're opening up the possibly that Rick Santorum gets to dictate your life. And your only check is faith in your fellow man when he has no skin the game.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

What percentage of 30 year old males actually use their plan to cover major medical bills?

I'm probably going to have surgery in the fall. It is also a pre-existing condition which I hadn't considered before right now. I have coverage through my employer but I imagine I'd be fucked pretty hard without it.

Edit: I'm 28.

 

[Chumly]

Have republicans proposed anything meaningful in the last 4 years for healthcare other than malpractice reform? Other than returning to the 60s like they said during the debates and letting people die.

 

[Learn2read]

Who cares if it's partisan hackery?
For once, we can harness that crap to do some good, and we should.

And Pelosi is putting party ahead of country (I know I shouldn't be surprised when that happen in DC, and I'm not, but I'm going to keep on calling that bullshit out).

What interest of the country is served by accomodating a conspiracy nut like Issa's witchhunt?

 

[ToxicAdam]

Myself, for recent kidney stones, my roommate for shoulder and three separate knee surgeries.

So, 100% of people you know. But what of the rest of the population? That's what my question was. Could you even hazard guess?

that choice has consequences on all. If you're making choices that influence other people's medical costs, you best bet other people can and will tell you your choice is wrong, and they have every right to make you not push your costs on them
.

A body isn't a car. Just because I elect to not have insurance, doesn't mean that my broken leg has any kind of discernable effect on your pocketbook. Right? I go to the ER and then pay the bill.

 

[Fox318]

What Libertarian debate? That was back at the start of May.

I missed it?

Damn

 

[codhand]

But what of the rest of the population? That's what my question was.

You imply very few people do, so my point is, if that were true than I wouldn't have several personal experiences. Also backed up by someone else in this thread, and once before on the previous OT someone complaining about $3500 deductible, so I think if it were the small percentage you seem to think than all these stories wouldn't exist in such a small sample of people, including the very person you're discussing it with. Furthermore if it is a small percentage I hope to have done some small part in letting you know that people do use employer coverage for major medical, again your implication was that it was insignificant, and now your argument is me, my roommate and Dave Inc, are insignificant because we represent a small percentage. Also not "100% of the people I know" need major surgery, just that the few times they do, they use employer health insurance.

 

[benjipwns]

I missed it?

Damn

I'll link it if you want lol

I'm probably going to have surgery in the fall. It is also a pre-existing condition which I hadn't considered before right now. I have coverage through my employer but I imagine I'd be fucked pretty hard without it.

Edit: I'm 28.

I hope you do well and are fine, but I'm glad you get medical care rather than have to wait.

Other than returning to the 60s like they said during the debates and letting people die.

Yep, that's what Republicans proposed. Having people die.

And let it be noted, Republicans are utter shit bags, but if you think that unless the state rations you care because you are not part of the nomenclature then you will die, there's nothing I can do for you. The state has decided. Sorry.

I want everyone to gain access, throwing themselves to the wolves of politics is nothing I wish on anyone.

 

[eznark]

I missed it?

Damn

It was pretty uneventful. Some people tried to stir up "he was running for GOP we don't want the dregs" but Johnson is awesome so that never gained traction.

 

[daedalius]

What percentage of 30 year old males actually use their plan to cover major medical bills?

Hmm, pretty sure that CAT scan I had last year would have been pretty expensive without insurance.

If I ever decide to get this junk lymphnode removed, I'm pretty sure I'd better have fucking insurance to cover the cost of the surgery unless I want to declare bankruptcy.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

I hope you do well and are fine, but I'm glad you get medical care rather than have to wait.

It's a more-or-less optional surgery that I'm postponing until the fall since I'm on business until then. If my care provider said I had to wait a few months it wouldn't bother me a bit.

That's a very tired talking point.

 

[benjipwns]

It's a more-or-less optional surgery that I'm postponing until the fall since I'm on business until then. If my care provider said I had to wait a few months it wouldn't bother me a bit.

That's a very tired talking point.

So you get to choose.

 

[Fox318]

It was pretty uneventful. Some people tried to stir up "he was running for GOP we don't want the dregs" but Johnson is awesome so that never gained traction.

But that's pretty much every Libertarian debate.

Look at Mike Gravel and Bob Barr for example.

The fact that Barr was nominated was a fucking joke.

 

[eznark]

But that's pretty much every Libertarian debate.

Look at Mike Gravel and Bob Barr for example.

The fact that Barr was nominated was a fucking joke.

Yeah but usually they are more spirited and fun.

 

[benjipwns]

But that's pretty much every Libertarian debate.

Look at Mike Gravel and Bob Barr for example.

The fact that Barr was nominated was a fucking joke.

Gravel bombed, Barr is the ultimate tar on the party.

Johnson is legit though, he should be the protest vote.

I'd vote for him if he was GOP nominee.

 

[ToxicAdam]

You imply very few people do, so my point is, if that were true than I wouldn't have several personal experiences. Also backed up by someone else in this thread, and once before on the previous OT someone complaining about $3500 deductible, so I think if it were the small percentage you seem to think than all these stories wouldn't exist in such a small sample of people, including the very person you're discussing it with. Furthermore if it is a small percentage I hope to have done some small part in letting you know that people do use employer coverage for major medical, again your implication was that it was insignificant, and now your argument is me, my roommate and Dave Inc, are insignificant because we represent a small percentage.

Isthisreallife.jpg

This is indisputable anecdotal evidence! How could I ever hope to compete?!

Listen, if 30 year old males were being carted in and out of hospitals all day, then there would be a shit ton of statistics to back this up. Insurance companies would offset this reality by jacking up premiums for people of this demographic. BUT THE EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE. One of the cheapest times to buy a health insurance policy is between the ages of 24-30.

Over 60% of our lifetime expenditures of medical bills happen AFTER the age of 65. By the age of 30, the average male will only have spent about 10% of their lifetime expenditure. That's a very SMALL number.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/ (Figure 1 under Results)

 

[GaimeGuy]

Have republicans proposed anything meaningful in the last 4 years for healthcare other than malpractice reform? Other than returning to the 60s like they said during the debates and letting people die.

Yes.

They proposed a private insurance mandate with insurance exchanges for them to compete for customers.

Once the ball got rolling on that, they said "Hey, wait, that's LIBRUL COMMUNIST TAKEOVER!" and changed their mind. Their new plan was to turn health insurance into the credit card/banking industries (allow companies to sell across state lines, which means every company relocates to the state with the most lenient regulations and makes every one oftheir customers in the other 49 states agree to use that state's courts/laws to settle any disputes). Hooray race to the bottom.

Oh, and Joe Liebermann killed a medicare buy-in , and I believe it was Olympia Snowe who killed hte proposal to remove anti-trust exemption status from insurance companies.

 

[Jackson50]

PhoenixDark
Outlier Polls Are The Baseline When It's Convenient
(Today, 11:59 AM)

Nate Silver posted yesterday on that poll. Outliers always generate attention.

Nothing more enjoyable than trying to gotcha a libertarian.

Libertarians are so full of themselves.

 

[benjipwns]

Isthisreallife.jpg

This is indisputable anecdotal evidence! How could I ever hope to compete?!

Listen, if 30 year old males were being carted in and out of hospitals all day, then there would be a shit ton of statistics to back this up. Insurance companies would offset this reality by jacking up premiums for people of this demographic. BUT THE EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE. One of the cheapest times to buy a health insurance policy is between the ages of 24-30.

Over 60% of our lifetime expenditures of medical bills happen AFTER the age of 65. By the age of 30, the average male will only have spent about 10% of their lifetime expenditure. That's a very SMALL number.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

You're ignoring that insurance companies are stealing from everyone while also dropping them from coverage.

The only hope we have is to force us to pay insurance companies.

Yes.

They proposed a private insurance mandate with insurance exchanges for them to compete for customers.

Once the ball got rolling on that, they said "Hey, wait, that's LIBRUL COMMUNIST TAKEOVER!" and changed their mind.

Thank god our President stood in the way, otherwise we'd all have to buy houses to stop homelessness.

 

[Chichikov]

What interest of the country is served by accomodating a conspiracy nut like Issa's witchhunt?

Restricting executive privilege.
Also, find out what the fuck is going on with the war on drugs in Mexico, this shit is getting out of hand.

 

[codhand]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/ (Figure 1 under Results)

So I don't count then because I'm part of a small percentage?

One of the cheapest times to buy a health insurance policy is between the ages of 24-30

Our definitions of "cheap" could not be more different.

Anecdotal is real life

You're just like a corporate executive, looking at numbers, ignoring real people with real concerns. 10% is a small percentage but how much money is that 10%? My cat scan was $150, plus antibiotics ($40), plus co-pay ($20), that's with insurance, without it was over $1500, and I'd never been sick before, good thing I didn't take your "small risk".

 

[benjipwns]

Also, find out what the fuck is going on with the war on drugs in Mexico, this shit is getting out of hand.

More praise be to our President.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Nate Silver posted yesterday on that poll. Outliers always generate attention.Libertarians are so full of themselves.

I think the aggregates also showed a very slight expanded lead for Obama.