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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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codhand

Member
Lech Walesa all but endorses Mitt Romney during meeting in Poland

“I wish you to be successful because this success is needed to the United States, of course, but to Europe and the rest of the world, too,” the Nobel Peace Prize laureate was heard telling Romney when the press was allowed in on the tail end of their meeting. “Gov. Romney, get your success – be successful!"

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/europe/241017-polish-human-rights-icon-roots-for-romney

Lech Wałęsa born 29 September 1943) is a Polish politician, trade-union organizer, and human-rights activist. A charismatic leader, he co-founded Solidarity (Solidarność), the Soviet bloc's first independent trade union


does not compute

romney-walesa.jpg
 
Lech Walesa all but endorses Mitt Romney during meeting in Poland

“I wish you to be successful because this success is needed to the United States, of course, but to Europe and the rest of the world, too,” the Nobel Peace Prize laureate was heard telling Romney when the press was allowed in on the tail end of their meeting. “Gov. Romney, get your success – be successful!"

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/europe/241017-polish-human-rights-icon-roots-for-romney

Lech Wałęsa born 29 September 1943) is a Polish politician, trade-union organizer, and human-rights activist. A charismatic leader, he co-founded Solidarity (Solidarność), the Soviet bloc's first independent trade union


does not compute

Poland
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Depends on the part of the country I suppose. The Eastern seaboard would be well served by high-speed rail. Maybe connect a few cities along the gulf or the great lakes and the western seaboard. If you connect all the big population centers with rail lines it pretty much leaves the middle of the county with nothing.

The Great Lakes area would love some high-speed rail. Run it from Minneapolis through Milwaukee and down to Chicago, then through Indianapolis and Columbus and connect up with whatever the east coast has.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
United States: 3,794,101 sq mi
Europe: 3,930,000 sq mi

Pardon?


So, then we should start factoring in Eastern European outcomes when we are making generalized statements about the two? Because that is never done. It's always about how Nordish country X is doing or France, Germany, etc.


http://www.un.org/esa/desa/papers/2006/wp17_2006.pdf
http://internationalbusiness.wikia.com/wiki/Transport_infrastructure_in_Central-_and_Eastern_Europe
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...t-in-east-europe-suffer-lack-of-freedoms.html
http://viewswire.eiu.com/index.asp?...peid=1152462500&country_id=1030000303&fs=true
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I'd love a SEA -> PDX -> SF -> LA -> SD high-speed rail system.

Take the train down the Oregon/Cali coast to San Francisco in 3-4 hours for $100? Yes, please.
 
Spain's rail system works great from my experience on it.
Actually, most of their infrastructure is way better than ours.

LA to SF high speed rail? Yes please.
 
Lech Walesa all but endorses Mitt Romney during meeting in Poland

“I wish you to be successful because this success is needed to the United States, of course, but to Europe and the rest of the world, too,” the Nobel Peace Prize laureate was heard telling Romney when the press was allowed in on the tail end of their meeting. “Gov. Romney, get your success – be successful!"

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/europe/241017-polish-human-rights-icon-roots-for-romney

Lech Wałęsa born 29 September 1943) is a Polish politician, trade-union organizer, and human-rights activist. A charismatic leader, he co-founded Solidarity (Solidarność), the Soviet bloc's first independent trade union


does not compute

I do not know of his financial views, but his social views fit very closely with Romney.
 

Chichikov

Member
Isn't the US much less dense in terms of population though?
New Jersey has higher population density than any country in Europe (excluding the stupid city-states).
There are 8 states with higher population density than France and 10 with higher density as Europe as a whole.
I don't think the density argument hold much water.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
So, then we should start factoring in Eastern European outcomes when we are making generalized statements about the two? Because that is never done. It's always about how Nordish country X is doing or France, Germany, etc.


http://www.un.org/esa/desa/papers/2006/wp17_2006.pdf
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...t-in-east-europe-suffer-lack-of-freedoms.html
http://viewswire.eiu.com/index.asp?...peid=1152462500&country_id=1030000303&fs=true

It's not my fault you made a completely stupid blanket statement and left the impression that Texas is the size of all of Europe.

Although, comparing Eastern European countries to the likes of Texas and California is either deliciously disingenuous or clever commentary about the state of both of those. I can't tell which.

Because Croatia and Ukraine are the perfect comparison. You got us, TA. You got us.
 
Well this is why when you go to Europe, the place has very nice roads, great public transportation, is very clean, etc. Instead of pouring their government money into the military, they build up a nice infrastructure and have universal healthcare. We need a military ready to take on invaders from Mars.

The funny thing is that we helped them initally build all that infrastructure after WWII with the Marshall Plan.

Isn't the US much less dense in terms of population though?

Yes, but we also have a ton of big cities and metropolitan areas. Unfortunately, cities in the US have almost no power in comparison to state and federal governments.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
It's not my fault you made a completely stupid blanket statement and left the impression that Texas is the size of all of Europe.

I'm not responsible for your faulty impressions.

Although, comparing Eastern European countries to the likes of Texas and California is either deliciously disingenuous or clever commentary about the state of both of those. I can't tell which.

Because Croatia and Ukraine are the perfect comparison. You got us, TA. You got us.


The point was that a prosperous nation is much easier to manage when there is less of it to manage. It's not really a radical idea.

Now if people want to start comparing outcomes in America with places like Russia, China, Canada .. etc. Then that begins to make more sense to me.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I'm not responsible for your faulty impressions.

Your statement was factually inaccurate and downright intentionally misleading. You know that, we all know that.

The point was that a prosperous nation is much easier to manage when there is less of it to manage. It's not really a radical idea.

Now if people want to start comparing outcomes in America with places like Russia, China, Canada .. etc. Then that begins to make more sense to me.

/rolleyes
 

KingGondo

Banned
I'd love a SEA -> PDX -> SF -> LA -> SD high-speed rail system.

Take the train down the Oregon/Cali coast to San Francisco in 3-4 hours for $100? Yes, please.
A high-speed rail line from Chicago--St. Louis--Kansas City--Tulsa--OKC--DFW--Austin--San Antonio--Houston makes too much sense. That would be incredible.

Not only would it shift costs into a massive shared public infrastructure and increase efficiency, it would increase the amount of business done between residents of the various areas, benefitting the economies of all these cities.

Man, I hope I see the day when this becomes a reality.
 

codhand

Member
He is essentially a Republican as we know them so it is not surprising

Still given Walesa's bio, I can only assume the anti-union thing goes over the heads of most foreign leaders, and is distilled to down to the more important question of pro-commie or anti-commie. I'm also aware of Obama's foot-in-mouth disease in regards to Poland; missle defense, "death camps", golfing during a Polish memorial.
 

Baraka in the White House

2-Terms of Kombat
Watching Romney's campaign get moving has been more fun than I thought it'd be. I figured he'd at least have the political savvy to play it safe and boring while praying the economy tanks.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Hah. The Voice of Poligaf has spoken.

Get over yourself.

I get that you have preconceived notions, but don't try to deflect and make up bullshit as you go along to confirm your own biases against a subject.

You were wrong. Get over yourself.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
I get that you have preconceived notions, but don't try to deflect and make up bullshit as you go along to confirm your own biases against a subject.

You were wrong. Get over yourself.


I was wrong about what? That when people make generalizations about America and Europe they are usually only talking about a few number of select (small) countries and not Europe as a whole?


Do you think when Speculawyer was talking about how tidy and efficient Europe is, he had Romania and Bulgaria in mind?
 
A high-speed rail line from Chicago--St. Louis--Kansas City--Tulsa--OKC--DFW--Austin--San Antonio--Houston makes too much sense. That would be incredible.

Not only would it shift costs into a massive shared public infrastructure and increase efficiency, it would increase the amount of business done between residents of the various areas, benefitting the economies of all these cities.

Man, I hope I see the day when this becomes a reality.
Then we build our space elevator right in the middle of the midwest, turning that whole area into a port.

Libertarians leave the planet en masse to colonize their own island planets while the rest of us expand and mine asteroids. Then the first civil war of colonial independence happens, and then a long period of peace and wild technological development.

I have foreseen this.
 

codhand

Member
I was wrong about what? That when people make generalizations about America and Europe they are usually only talking about a few number of select (small) countries and not Europe as a whole?


Do you think when Speculawyer was talking about how tidy and efficient Europe is, he had Romania and Bulgaria in mind?

I think you're bending his argument away from his main point.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I was wrong about what? That when people make generalizations about America and Europe they are usually only talking about a few number of select (small) countries and not Europe as a whole?

When you were discussing about squeezing the entire US into the landmass of Texas, what were you talking about? I certainly hope not France or Spain. I certainly hope not Germany. I certainly hope not the whole of Europe. None of those countries have the population that the whole of US has.

Do you think when Speculawyer was talking about how tidy and efficient Europe is, he had Romania and Bulgaria in mind?

Is anybody talking about putting a high-speed rail in Alabama or Mississippi?
 
I never get the bubu europe is small argument when it comes to high speed rail. Sure European countries are small, and their budget reflects that. Can't USA, with highest GDP in the world, sustain it's population ratio-wise? If high speed rails are un-doable in a vast country like US, how come China does it?

N2Mgh.png
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Then we build our space elevator right in the middle of the midwest, turning that whole area into a port.

Libertarians leave the planet en masse to colonize their own island planets while the rest of us expand and mine asteroids. Then the first civil war of colonial independence happens, and then a long period of peace and wile technological development.

I have foreseen this.

The Libertopian dependence on robot labor renders their lifestyles indolent and degenerate and when the second Earth colonization wave is launched all use of and references to robotics are forbidden and the Spa...er-Libertopian worlds gradually slide into decay
 

codhand

Member
I never get the bubu europe is small argument when it comes to high speed rail. Sure European countries are small, and their budget reflects that. Can't USA, with highest GDP in the world, sustain it's population ratio-wise? If high speed rails are un-doable in a vast country like US, how come China does it?

I agree with the basic point but, China gets it done by having no democracy, and thus makes a poor example.



Lech
Socially, he's way to the right. His economic policies would have him labeled a communist in the US Republican party.

Got it.
 
I never get the bubu europe is small argument when it comes to high speed rail. Sure European countries are small, and their budget reflects that. Can't USA, with highest GDP in the world, sustain it's population ratio-wise? If high speed rails are un-doable in a vast country like US, how come China does it?

1960's Space Race: Let's beat those Commies! Yeah, you dirty Godless bastards sent a monkey into orbit? We sent Men to the fucking MOON! GO NASA! USA! USA! USA!

Government investment proceeds to drive several generations of bleeding edge technology in material sciences, physics, astronomy, etc. giving us an almost insurmountable lead going into the Information Age. Inspires kids to aspire to high levels of education in science, math, engineering leading indirectly to the awesome technology that we have today by grooming a generation of engineers.

2012's HSR Race: HSR? In my country? AmtrakFAIL! Fucking bunch of Socialist Nazi Commies!

Government investment (perception wise) is inherently bad, always leads to failure, nothing good comes out of it, waste of taxpayer dollars, etc. Kids would rather watch American Idol and Jersey Shore than Mr. Wizard, Bill Nye the Science Guy, etc. (don't even have equivalent programming...MEGASADFACE for my daughter)

What have we become?
 
I agree with the basic point but, China gets it done by having no democracy, and thus makes a poor example.
Yeah China is a godless commie stronghold and all that, but doesn't China also tax its citizens? I don't think they're like Saudi Arabia with nationalized oil filling the country's treasury endlessly. They still need the money, and it all boils down to money in the end, no?
 

codhand

Member
Yeah China is a godless commie stronghold and all that, but doesn't China also tax its citizens? I don't think they're like Saudi Arabia with nationalized oil filling the country's treasury endlessly. They still need the money, and it all boils down to money in the end, no?

Yeah, but again, China doesn't exactly put taxes up for a vote.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
1960's Space Race: Let's beat those Commies! GO NASA! USA! USA! USA!

Government investment proceeds to drive several generations of bleeding edge technology in material sciences, physics, astronomy, etc. Inspires kids to love science, math, engineering leading indirectly to the awesome technology that we have today by grooming a generation of engineers.

2012's HSR Race: HSR? In my country? AmtrakFAIL! Fucking bunch of Socialist Nazi Commies!

Government investment (perception wise) is inherently bad, always leads to failure, nothing good comes out of it, waste of taxpayer dollars, etc.

What have we become?

People who have forgotten how we got where we are. The funny part is I don't even remember anti-government sentiment like this growing up in the 90s, although being raised by liberal parents probably skewed that perception.
 
Yeah, but again, China doesn't exactly put taxes up for a vote.
But what I'm saying is that such a vast infrastructure project IS feasible in a big country like USA, through revenue from taxes. It's disingenuous to bring out America's land size and say it's impossible.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
When you were discussing about squeezing the entire US into the landmass of Texas, what were you talking about?

This was posted before you even made your first reply:

Who says not to try? I'm just saying that American to European comparisons (especially individual countries) is stupid.


Is anybody talking about putting a high-speed rail in Alabama or Mississippi?

Do those states have cities like Minsk, Kiev, Bucharest and Istanbul?
 

codhand

Member
I don't even remember anti-government sentiment like this growing up in the 90s

I know wasn't it great?

But what I'm saying is that such a vast infrastructure project IS feasible in a big country like USA, through revenue from taxes. It's disingenuous to bring out America's land size and say it's impossible.

Honestly, EPA isn't helping either. Neither is the geography, take the Northeast Corridor as it's commonly referred to as, there is literally no land for rail to be laid, without removing existing rail lines already there. HSRail is one of the most depressing topics.
 
People who have forgotten how we got where we are. The funny part is I don't even remember anti-government sentiment like this growing up in the 90s, although being raised by liberal parents probably skewed that perception.

The economic crisis and the rise of Ron Paul.

Even in '08, it wasn't this popular to be anti-govt.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
This was posted before you even made your first reply:

I didn't respond to that post, did I? You think they are stupid comparisons. Okay. But at least give some valid reasons as to why. Your Texas comment was just shameful -- and not really a reason.

Do those states have cities like Minsk, Kiev,Bucharest and Istanbul?

Why should the failures of those countries be the USA's failures?
 
Depends on the part of the country I suppose. The Eastern seaboard would be well served by high-speed rail. Maybe connect a few cities along the gulf or the great lakes and the western seaboard. If you connect all the big population centers with rail lines it pretty much leaves the middle of the county with nothing.

I would think the Midwest line would be NYC -> Chicago with stops in Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Toledo/Detroit, then a second line linking down along the I-71 corridor from Cleveland to Columbus to Cincinnati, then from Cincinnati to Indy to Chicago along a second route.

In turn, Cincinnati becomes a gateway to the south for the Midwest (Nashville and Atlanta, at first, then down to Orlando and Miami for those tourist dollars) while they work on local infrastructure in the cities currently lacking it like Detroit and Columbus, and expand it in places like Cleveland that have trains but not much use.

An ideal high-speed line does not connect everyone; it would be like in Japan, where it connects to major hubs and those hubs then connect outward into the city along other lines like subways and at-grade rails. You use it much like how airports have hubs you travel between in most cases to get flights to smaller cities and other non-direct destinations.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
People who have forgotten how we got where we are. The funny part is I don't even remember anti-government sentiment like this growing up in the 90s, although being raised by liberal parents probably skewed that perception.



You don't remember the uproar over the assault gun ban, Waco, Ruby Ridge and then the aftermath of Timothy McVeigh?
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
It would be pretty hard to argue with a politician that would stand up and say, "Now that we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq, we are going to cut our military budget back down to 2001 levels. We will then take the extra 200+ billion dollars and put that back into our own country, instead of using it to blow up others."
 
People who have forgotten how we got where we are. The funny part is I don't even remember anti-government sentiment like this growing up in the 90s, although being raised by liberal parents probably skewed that perception.

There is NO WAY that America could have emerged as the powerhouse it was (and still largely is) in terms of technology (both civilian and military) without the huge government investment in infrastructure, basic research in universities, "Moonshot" type programs, etc.

It's amazing how there is a whole population of people who would believe that Americans could have beat the Soviets to the Moon if it was a private endeavor and we didn't have the weight of a nation behind that effort.

How I imagine Republicans and Libertarians (I feel dirty even typing that out...) think:

24170036.jpg
 

Arde5643

Member
It would be pretty hard to argue with a politician that would stand up and say, "Now that we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq, we are going to cut our military budget back down to 2001 levels. We will then take the extra 200+ billion dollars and put that back into our own country, instead of using it to blow up others."

GOP will just scathingly claim said politician to be an anti-patriotic traitorous coward who wants to oppress the American people with socialist ways.

And then the media will just air how traitorous said politician is without any thought whatsoever.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
GOP will just scathingly claim said politician to be an anti-patriotic traitorous coward who wants to oppress the American people with socialist ways.

And then the media will just air how traitorous said politician is without any thought whatsoever.

I think the media's quest to report what politicans say as fact or whatever is the most discouraging trend. An electorate should be informed, giving equal air time to stupidity only sets the uninformed back ever further.
 

Dram

Member
Republican Candidate Quits Amid Voter Fraud Allegations

http://www.nationalmemo.com/republican-candidate-quits-amid-voter-fraud-allegations/
After months of unproven allegations that widespread fraud is endangering our electoral system, Republicans can finally cite a clear and true case of voter fraud (although it is wholly irrelevant to their campaign for strict voter ID laws).

Unfortunately for the GOP, this outrageous incident directly implicates a Republican candidate for office — and it has now forced him out of the race.

John Enright, a Republican running for Supervisor of Pinal County, Arizona, ended his campaign on Thursday morning after allegations that his former companion — who has been deceased for five years — has been voting by absentee ballot since her death.

The Pinal Country Recorder’s Office received an anonymous letter several weeks ago claiming that someone had been filling out and mailing absentee ballots addressed to Sheila Nassar, who lived with Enright until she passed away in 2007.

Enright describes Nassar as his high school sweetheart, and “former life companion.”

Pinal County Recorder Laura Dean Lytle told The Arizona Republic that the curious case “is an absolute act of fraudulent voting.”

The allegations were enough to force Enright from the race. Although he did not mention voter fraud in a statement issued by his attorneys, Enright did tackle the allegations head on in a video message.

While a Republican candidate withdrawing from his campaign over voter fraud allegations is certainly ironic, it is hardly justification for harsh voter ID laws such as Arizona’s. After all, as the Brennan Center for Justice points out, one is more likely to be struck by lightning than to commit voter fraud.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
It would be pretty hard to argue with a politician that would stand up and say, "Now that we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq, we are going to cut our military budget back down to 2001 levels. We will then take the extra 200+ billion dollars and put that back into our own country, instead of using it to blow up others."

You'd run into a ton of stuff like this:

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_new...-the-army-tank-that-could-not-be-stopped?lite

The M1 Abrams tank has survived the Cold War, two conflicts in Iraq and a decade of war in Afghanistan. No wonder – it weighs as much as nine elephants and is fitted with a cannon capable of turning a building to rubble from two and a half miles away.

But now the machine finds itself a target in an unusual battle between the Defense Department and lawmakers who are the beneficiaries of large donations by its manufacturer.

The Pentagon, facing smaller budgets and looking towards a new global strategy, has decided it wants to save as much as $3 billion by freezing refurbishment of the M1 from 2014 to 2017, so it can redesign the hulking, clanking vehicle from top to bottom.

Its proposal would idle a large factory in Lima, Ohio, as well as halt work at dozens of subcontractors in Pennsylvania, Michigan and other states.

Opposing the Pentagon’s plans is Abrams manufacturer General Dynamics, a nationwide employer that has pumped millions of dollars into congressional elections over the last decade. The tank’s supporters on Capitol Hill say they are desperate to save jobs in their districts and concerned about undermining America’s military capability.

So far, the contractor is winning the battle, after a well-organized campaign of lobbying and political donations involving the lawmakers on four key committees that will decide the tanks’ fate, according to an analysis of spending and lobbying records by the Center for Public Integrity.

Sharp spikes in the company’s donations – including a two-week period in 2011 when its employees and political action committee sent the lawmakers checks for their campaigns totaling nearly $50,000 – roughly coincided with five legislative milestones for the Abrams, including committee hearings and votes and the defense bill’s final passage last year.

After putting the tank money back in the budget then, both the House and Senate Armed Services Committees have again authorized it this year — $181 million in the House and $91 million in the Senate. If the company and its supporters prevail, the Army will refurbish what Army Chief of Staff Ray Odierno described in a February hearing as “280 tanks that we simply do not need.”

It already has more than 2,300 M1’s deployed with U.S. forces around the world and roughly 3,000 more sitting idle in long rows outdoors at a remote military base in California’s Sierra mountains.

The $3 billion at stake in this fight is not a large sum in Pentagon terms – it’s roughly what the building spends every 82 minutes. But the fight over the Abrams’ future, still unfolding, illuminates the major pressures that drive the current defense spending debate.
These include a Pentagon looking to free itself from legacy projects and modernize some of its combat strategy, a Congress looking to defend pet projects and a well-financed and politically savvy defense industry with deep ties to both, fighting tooth-and-nail to fend off even small reductions in the budget now devoted to the military – a total figure that presently composes about half of all discretionary spending.
 
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