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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control
- Thread starter AlteredBeast
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Black Mamba
Member
Wouldn´t that help mitt?
Well, it's a joke on the fact that he's not paying taxes. Pretty sure if done right, people would pick up on the sarcasm.
Interesting, Maddow says she's got some tape that she thinks will take the tax return thing in a completely new direction. It's something from some archives that she says she doesn't think people have seen for years. Wonder what it is. It'll be her lead story tomorrow.
it probably won't be anything too major, but if she did find something, maybe it's the same thing the Obama campaign has been musing they have ready to go for when the campaign heats up in the fall. They said something like 'If the Republicans are worrying now, they're really going to be scared when they see what we have waiting for Romney when the campaign heats up.'
it's probably all just posturing, but still, would be nice if they did have something campaign killing
Interesting, Maddow says she's got some tape that she thinks will take the tax return thing in a completely new direction. It's something from some archives that she says she doesn't think people have seen for years. Wonder what it is. It'll be her lead story tomorrow.
Video of Romney hugging John Maynard Keynes.
it probably won't be anything too major, but if she did find something, maybe it's the same thing the Obama campaign has been musing they have ready to go for when the campaign heats up in the fall. They said something like 'If the Republicans are worrying now, they're really going to be scared when they see what we have waiting for Romney when the campaign heats up.'
Probably not too terribly major, but it must be something of interest. I've never seen her do a bump for the next day's thing like that, and she seemed kind of giddy about it. And she usually does pull up some interesting things and has some great points with them, so we'll see.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Interesting, Maddow says she's got some tape that she thinks will take the tax return thing in a completely new direction. It's something from some archives that she says she doesn't think people have seen for years. Wonder what it is. It'll be her lead story tomorrow.
I don't want us to get into these things. Don't hype things, show the video and if it is worth it it will blow up anyway.
This whole, we have a video that will blow your mind is a very conservative right-wing thing to do.
speculawyer
Member
His whole residency thing is a mess. Basically he likes to claim residency in places like Utah that give him big tax breaks. But then he does things like run for governor in MA so he retroactively claims to be a resident there. And when doing so he claims to have lived in his son's basement and claims to have worked for Bain companies in MA during periods after he said he 'retired' from Bain (despite SEC forms saying he is CEO of bain & collects $100K)....
You fucking kidding me?
No wonder the guy won't release his tax returns.
Now when you are a rich white guy and you pull all these sorts of moves, people tend to look the other way. I mean really, he is not stealing from anyone . . . he's just retroactively gaming the system to meet some goal like being eligible to run for office in MA. Little white lies. When you are a rich guy and have houses in Utah, California, New Hampshire, etc . . . where are you really resident of? Where ever want to say basically.
But I suspect that one of the reasons he won't release his tax returns is because they would expose a massive pile of contradictions, retroactive changes, gaming the system, and expose a lot of things he has been saying as total lies. For example, I'd guess that he has often claimed to be a New Hampshire resident at times since they have no state income tax. He probably has several different houses that are "primary residences" in order to pay less tax. Of course most rich people (including most of Congress) probably do the same, so no one wants to talk about it.
Again . . . probably nothing really criminal . . . but a lot of sleazy gaming
If it was something that people other than liberals would care about, it probably wouldn't release at 9 PM on a Friday.
Well, it sounds like it's something Rachel's team found, and it sounded like they found it possibly today. They probably want to break whatever news it is.
cartoon_soldier
Member
On other news...http://mormonsforobama.org/
I still don´t think he has proof. But I do think that source might be someone who knows something pretty credible. I´m guessing they know its single digits and this game is just to get it out. I think the dems want the returns out before the convention.
Did he really release his returns to the McCain camp?
Maybe the source is John McCain, lol.
You joke but I think they have to have something from that. I really don´t think they´d go this deep on the tax records if they didn´t have something. They´d be laughed at so badly if they kept saying things like this and then found out he paid 20% or something.
That's my totally unsubstantiated theory. I do not think Reid or Obama - who floated the line in a speech recently that perhaps Romney paid no taxes and is hiding it - would go down this road if they did not know. If their goal is to goad Romney into releasing them, why risk the blowback that would ensue by making incorrect yet very specific allegations about them? It would be extraordinarily foolish, and I don't think they are that dumb. Their entire months long campaign to make them an issue would backfire. The Obama camp knows.
Given the background info dump that came from the McCain campaign last month, I would not be surprised if it came from them, or someone who knew.
It puts Romney in the position of denying something without being able to prove it, something he's already under pressure to release. The Obama team want Romney to keep talking about his tax returns, since it just reminds everyone that A) he's super rich and B) paid little in taxes. Obama is adding C) - Romney would just cut his own taxes further. That's the play today with the turn to "Romney wants to cut taxes on people like him" line of attack the Obama campaign has pivoted to.
It seems to me like they have Romney boxed in. I think the only way out for Romney is to up and release them and prove Obama/Reid wrong. Which he won't do.
(Side note: I remember a bit someone posted some news bit from a month back that went something along the lines of, if Romney knew what the Obama team was sitting on, they'd be panicking. I think the tax returns are it.)
Interesting, Maddow says she's got some tape that she thinks will take the tax return thing in a completely new direction. It's something from some archives that she says she doesn't think people have seen for years. Wonder what it is. It'll be her lead story tomorrow.
It's probably just video of Romney demanding Kennedy's returns or something. No one will care.
It's probably just video of Romney demanding Kennedy's returns or something. No one will care.
I'm pretty sure she's already shown that before.
speculawyer
Member
Sure . . . but such a leak may have happened way back in 2008 long before Obama beat McCain. Back then just after the bitter primary battle and when the vetting was being done for VP, some McCain insiders could have let it slip in discussions with other people that there is no way they were going to pick that jerk Romney and partly because he'd been paying single-digit tax rates.I think McCain loathes Romney, but he likely hates Obama even more so he wouldn't do anything to help him.
If its something big Maddow would absolutely release it tomorrow, no one EVER wants to get scooped and if she thinks there is a risk of that they'll let it out.
On the Reid thing, I doubt he'd double down with nothing. Someone from the McCain camp mist have leaked it. If it turns out he's full of it, then that man has got a huge set of balls.
On the Reid thing, I doubt he'd double down with nothing. Someone from the McCain camp mist have leaked it. If it turns out he's full of it, then that man has got a huge set of balls.
cartoon_soldier
Member
I am going to go ahead and say Maddow's video won't be anything explosive
As someone said before, it will be like Obama hugging that guy video
As someone said before, it will be like Obama hugging that guy video
Based on what I saw earlier, I think Reid should triple down. I really think next he should just say "Look, he's already been caught lying about his tax returns when he was running for governor. He said he was listed as a Massachusetts resident, and then we found out he wasn't, and we found out he knew it, because he was retroactively trying to change it. He's a proven liar on this specific subject, so the onus is on him to prove to the American people what he says is true."
speculawyer
Member
It puts Romney in the position of denying something without being able to prove it, something he's already under pressure to release.
But he is able to prove it! And that is the real rub. He could prove the allegations false but he refuses to do so. And that allows everyone to wildly speculate about why.
Thinking about Romney's situation, there certainly may have been some years where he paid zero tax. Of course, it could have been done completely legally and not simply through sleazy tax dodges. He could have just had that year where stocks tanked, sold off some terrible loser stocks and used those losses to offset gains elsewhere and had lots of charitable donations such that he had no real income.
Just like corporations that pay no tax all the time because many years they have losses. Well, there have been TERRIBLE years for investing where he comes out a loser. People are corporations too! ;-)
But paying no taxes when you are multi-millionaire doesn't look good. I don't mind it at all as long as the losses are real. I'm far more disturbed by the fact that in good years when he makes millions of dollars, he only pays 13.9%. That is far more offensive than paying nothing when he loses money.
Edit: Of course I'm talking about one maybe two years of no taxes. There is no way he paid no taxes for ten years. That has to be wild exaggeration.
Black Mamba
Member
But he is able to prove it! And that is the real rub. He could prove the allegations false but he refuses to do so. And that allows everyone to wildly speculate about why.
Thinking about Romney's situation, there certainly may have been some years where he paid zero tax. Of course, it could have been done completely legally and not simply through sleazy tax dodges. He could have just had that year where stocks tanked, sold off some terrible loser stocks and used those losses to offset gains elsewhere and had lots of charitable donations such that he had no real income.
Just like corporations that pay no tax all the time because many years they have losses. Well, there have been TERRIBLE years for investing where he comes out a loser. People are corporations too! ;-)
But paying no taxes when you are multi-millionaire doesn't look good. I don't mind it at all as long as the losses are real. I'm far more disturbed by the fact that in good years when he makes millions of dollars, he only pays 13.9%. That is far more offensive than paying nothing when he loses money.
Moreover, we have no clue whether Mr. Romney paid any gift tax on transfers, now valued at $100 million, to a trust he set up in 1995 for the benefit of his five sons. Until this year, the federal gift tax had a lifetime exemption of $1 million, and it taxed gifts in excess of that amount at rates between 29 and 44 percent. A gift of $100 million to ones children could, therefore, require paying a tax of as much as $29 million to $44 million.
But every good tax professional knows that gift tax returns are rarely audited, except after the transferors death. And normally the I.R.S. cannot challenge such a return after three years from its filing. But if the values of the gifts were not properly appraised and disclosed on Mr. Romneys gift tax returns, a challenge may still be possible. If he did not file any gift tax return, he would still be liable for the tax, plus interest and penalties.
Based on his aggressive tax planning, revealed in the 2010 returns he has released and his approval of a notably dicey tax avoidance strategy in 1994 when he headed the audit committee of the board of Marriott International, my bet is that if Mr. Romney filed a gift tax return for these transfers at all he put a low or even zero value on the gifts, certainly a small fraction of the price at which he would have sold the transferred assets to an unrelated party. Otherwise, he should be happy to release his gift tax returns. According to a partner at Mr. Romneys trustees law firm, valuing carried interests, such as Mr. Romneys interests in the private equity company Bain Capital, at zero for gift tax purposes was common advice given to clients like Mr. Romney in the 1990s and early 2000s.
If detected, undervaluing large gifts to ones children could provoke large penalties from the I.R.S. These are the kinds of tax penalties that even multinational corporations try to avoid because they fear how the public would react to the adverse publicity that would inevitably follow.
The gift tax stuff is an interesting angle. And it may not be legal what he did.
Speculation, baby!
speculawyer
Member
Interesting, Maddow says she's got some tape that she thinks will take the tax return thing in a completely new direction. It's something from some archives that she says she doesn't think people have seen for years. Wonder what it is. It'll be her lead story tomorrow.
My guess is that it is some of the testimony from when he wanted to run for Governor in MA and that testimony will contradict his recent pronouncements about having "Absolutely nothing to do with Bain after 1999". She's mentioned that a few times but there hasn't been any video. Having video often makes a big difference.
People will dismiss her allegations as 'liberal media lies' . . . if there is video of Romney saying things then that he has been contradicting lately . . . well . . . then every news outlet will run it and that is much harder for Romney to downplay.
Manmademan
Member
A quick google search gave me 6 "Penn State" bars.
http://www.google.com/#q=Penn+State...pw.r_qf.&fp=efadbc5eaac9b940&biw=1600&bih=799
That's a lot.
You must not be from around here. 6 bars in a city of 1.4 million isn't shit. The number playing local games is in the hundreds, easily. my old place (I just moved to the burns) had 6 bars within a block that play local sports religiously, but to see a Penn state game I had to go a mile away...and that bar was usually empty outside of postseason play. (mad river)
Penn state has a minuscule following here.
It's criminal the advantages rich people have in our tax code. Stashing cash overseas. 100 million dollar ira's. I mean are you kiddin me? I hope he gets pounded on it for the rest of the election season. BEST case scenario there's a lot of questionable stuff with him paying less than 15% in taxes for the past 10 years.
The gift tax stuff is an interesting angle. And it may not be legal what he did.
Speculation, baby!
You're just jealous because he is giving his sons some bootstrap money.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Based on what I saw earlier, I think Reid should triple down. I really think next he should just say "Look, he's already been caught lying about his tax returns when he was running for governor. He said he was listed as a Massachusetts resident, and then we found out he wasn't, and we found out he knew it, because he was retroactively trying to change it. He's a proven liar on this specific subject, so the onus is on him to prove to the American people what he says is true."
He already tripled down
1. Huffington post
2. Las Vegas Review Journal
3. Senate Floor Speech
You're just jealous because he is giving his sons some bootstrap money.
That is ridiculous. Romney's sons are self made men just like his Dad. They built by themselves everything they own.
But he is able to prove it! And that is the real rub. He could prove the allegations false but he refuses to do so. And that allows everyone to wildly speculate about why.
Thinking about Romney's situation, there certainly may have been some years where he paid zero tax. Of course, it could have been done completely legally and not simply through sleazy tax dodges. He could have just had that year where stocks tanked, sold off some terrible loser stocks and used those losses to offset gains elsewhere and had lots of charitable donations such that he had no real income.
Just like corporations that pay no tax all the time because many years they have losses. Well, there have been TERRIBLE years for investing where he comes out a loser. People are corporations too! ;-)
But paying no taxes when you are multi-millionaire doesn't look good. I don't mind it at all as long as the losses are real. I'm far more disturbed by the fact that in good years when he makes millions of dollars, he only pays 13.9%. That is far more offensive than paying nothing when he loses money.
Edit: Of course I'm talking about one maybe two years of no taxes. There is no way he paid no taxes for ten years. That has to be wild exaggeration.
I have always asserted that some of this pressure is coming from donors who do not want their enjoyable and lucrative current tax scams put in the public spotlight, as well as Romney's own cowardly avarice, of course.
There has to be SOMETHING to Reid's claims. He's just someone who I never expected to get into the campaign like this, especially with things like releasing statements and doing interviews about it.
It's Reid. He'll find a way to fuck up anything.
But he is able to prove it! And that is the real rub. He could prove the allegations false but he refuses to do so. And that allows everyone to wildly speculate about why.
Alternately...
There has to be SOMETHING to Reid's claims. He's just someone who I never expected to get into the campaign like this, especially with things like releasing statements and doing interviews about it.
It's one of three things.
1) The claims that Romney paid no taxes some years are baseless, but there are other things in them Romney does not want to release, and so won't release them.
2) The claims are correct, in which case Romney really doesn't want to release them.
3) There's nothing in the returns any more or less damaging than in the 2010 return Romney has already released, and this whole thing is just a self-inflicted wound.
I don't think even Romney would do #3; there has to be a reason he's refusing to go back further than 2010. So it's #1 or #2, or some combination of them.
But Romney can't disprove anything without up and releasing them. And the more the focus is on Romney's money, taxes and tax proposals, the worse it is for him.
I am still surprised Reid escalated this in the way he did. It's going to come to a head soon.
It's Reid. He'll find a way to fuck up anything.
Obama only last week wondered aloud in a speech that Romney may have paid no taxes, a day or so from when Reid first made his claim. I think it's coordinated.
Dana Bash is also saying the Reid's source is credible.
I did speak to one source who is very close to Senator Reid who claims to also know who the Bain investor is that Reid spoke with, and insists that it is a credible person and this person if we knew the name we would understand they would have the authority and the ability to know about Romney's tax returns.
Dana Bash is also saying the Reid's source is credible.
Looks like we've got something here.
adamsappel
Member
The original article said Christ, but there was an error from the transcription from Fox they used.
It's just a feature of the CMS's these sites use so as to maintain the same permanent link. Can cause weird issues, yes.
If the transcript was from FOX, then I call shenanigans. They're whitewashing his words to not offend their audience and cast a conservative hero in a bad light taking the Lord's name in vain.
It puts Romney in the position of denying something without being able to prove it, something he's already under pressure to release.
But he is able to prove it! And that is the real rub. He could prove the allegations false but he refuses to do so. And that allows everyone to wildly speculate about why.
Damned if he does, damned if he don't. It's probably not as bad as Reid is intimating, but Romney can't disprove he paid more than 0% by showing he actually paid 11% without looking nearly as bad. Or Romney had a couple of "bad" years (we should all be so unlucky) and paid nothing, and Reid can say, "I apologize, I was misinformed that the governor paid no taxes for ten years; it was only for two."
Dana Bash is also saying the Reid's source is credible.
Holy crap! If Reid allegation's about Romney's taxes are true...
Holy crap! If Reid allegation's about Romney's taxes are true...
She doesn't have the source, calm down. It's just Reid's office saying it's legit so far.
RustyNails
Member
reason why she bumped it to next day is so she can release the tape and change conversation from 100k job numbers. It better be big.I don't want us to get into these things. Don't hype things, show the video and if it is worth it it will blow up anyway.
This whole, we have a video that will blow your mind is a very conservative right-wing thing to do.
cartoon_soldier
Member
One should realize that for all of Reid's issues, he is a good politician. The way he orchestrated his victory in 2010 was awesome. When he wants to destroy his opponent, he goes for the jugular. He is ruthless when it comes to this, their team did an amazing GOTV operation in the Latino community even as they knew it would assure that Reid's son would lose the Governorship.
PhoenixDark
Banned
One should realize that for all of Reid's issues, he is a good politician. The way he orchestrated his victory in 2010 was awesome. When he wants to destroy his opponent, he goes for the jugular. He is ruthless when it comes to this, their team did an amazing GOTV operation in the Latino community even as they knew it would assure that Reid's son would lose the Governorship.
What does that have to do with accusing Romney of something with no evidence lol
Something tells me Romney isn't dumb enough to run for president with 10 years of not paying taxes. Moreover, McCain's camp would know. Just as John Edwards' camp was ready and willing to leak news of his affair if he got close to the nomination, I expect McCain's folks would do the same to protect the party.
One should realize that for all of Reid's issues, he is a good politician. The way he orchestrated his victory in 2010 was awesome.
Couldn't disagree more. He's a terrible politician who only managed to win reelection because his opponent was literally a crazy person.
cartoon_soldier
Member
What does that have to do with accusing Romney of something with no evidence lol
Something tells me Romney isn't dumb enough to run for president with 10 years of not paying taxes. Moreover, McCain's camp would know. Just as John Edwards' camp was ready and willing to leak news of his affair if he got close to the nomination, I expect McCain's folks would do the same to protect the party.
Just in terms of politics, Reid knows what he is doing. Whether his claim is true or not, no idea.
Couldn't disagree more. He's a terrible politician who only managed to win reelection because his opponent was literally a crazy person.
The leader in the Primary was Sue Lowden, Reid's machine destroyed her to help Sharon Angle win.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Lawyer: Your Honor, my client has evidence that can easily prove his innocence and show the prosecution is lying.
Judge: Well alright lets see it.
Lawyer: Well you see...my client doesn't wish to show you, you're just going to have to trust him.
Judge:.....
Now anywhere outside the warped minds of right-wing voters, a guilty suspect or an insane person would this make ANY damn sense?
Judge: Well alright lets see it.
Lawyer: Well you see...my client doesn't wish to show you, you're just going to have to trust him.
Judge:.....
Now anywhere outside the warped minds of right-wing voters, a guilty suspect or an insane person would this make ANY damn sense?
David Bernstein has been periodically enumerating the number of female Republican Congressional candidates. And when you account for the dearth of minority Republicans, they're genuinely a party of white men. Shocking.
Republican Women, Update
Published Aug 01 2012, 10:47 AM by David S. Bernstein
In all, I count 308 districts of 435 total (71%) that have held their primaries, with a total of 29 women nominated by the GOP -- 10 returning incumbents and 19 challengers.
That sounds bad, but the reality is even worse.
Using the brand-spankin'-new Roll Call ratings chart, I found 62 districts in the country where a new Republican appears to have a feasible chance of making it to Washington. That includes any open or Democrat-held seat that isn't considered "safe Democratic." (That excludes Republicans beating incumbent Republicans in primaries, but it doesn't appear that any GOP women will accomplish that this year.)
Of those 62 districts, 5 women have won the GOP nominations. Another 6 have GOP women candidates awaiting their primaries (including Zoller heading to a runoff, mentioned above). The other 51 have already nominated men, or have no women running in the primary.
http://blog.thephoenix.com/BLOGS/talkingpolitics/archive/2012/08/01/republican-women-update.aspx
If you think Breitbart's big surprise was the whitey footage, you're deluded. No one's prepared for what's coming down the pike.OMG what if Romney has her killed like Breitbart and the Whitey tape?!?!?!
RustyNails
Member
Pretty sure at this point there is something going on in Mitt's taxes. More than anything, it's his unrelenting position on not releasing anything that has people wondering, not Reid's source or his magical IRA.There is no scandal with mitts taxes. The scandal is the entire structure of the tax system itself.
That would be the most damaging thing of all, not an anomaly, but a changing of the entire conversation of taxation. a boy can dream right?
Black Mamba
Member
What does that have to do with accusing Romney of something with no evidence lol
Something tells me Romney isn't dumb enough to run for president with 10 years of not paying taxes. Moreover, McCain's camp would know. Just as John Edwards' camp was ready and willing to leak news of his affair if he got close to the nomination, I expect McCain's folks would do the same to protect the party.
He probably did pay taxes, but what really kills him is the amnesty stuff for his swiss accounts and the gift stuff for his children which he evaded taxes on. That is probably legit.
Reid can't accuse him of doing something possibly illegal without it firing back on him and being a boost for Romney (liberalz media witch-hunting).
But Reid can claim he didn't pay taxes (even if he did) knowing that Romney can't release his returns without showing everyone he cheated elsewhere. And that's what he's doing.
If there was nothing there, Romney would have released it already. It's not about principle. There's no way it benefits him. He is hiding something and it's probably in the vein of what I mentioned above.
There is no scandal with mitts taxes. The scandal is the entire structure of the tax system itself.
That would be the most damaging thing of all, not an anomaly, but a changing of the entire conversation of taxation. a boy can dream right?
That would definitely be a dream come true if we could get a real, extended national conversation about the super rich paying jackshit in taxes, all in perfectly legal ways.
I'm interested to see where this goes. I hope Reid has something, because if he doesn't that's going to burn him, and others, badly. He definitely needs to stop putting words in Romney's father's mouth, however.
speculawyer
Member
I agree that Romney is smart enough not to do #3. 2010 is already out and if the other years are just like it, why would it change anything. He'd release them.Alternately...
It's one of three things.
1) The claims that Romney paid no taxes some years are baseless, but there are other things in them Romney does not want to release, and so won't release them.
2) The claims are correct, in which case Romney really doesn't want to release them.
3) There's nothing in the returns any more or less damaging than in the 2010 return Romney has already released, and this whole thing is just a self-inflicted wound.
I don't think even Romney would do #3; there has to be a reason he's refusing to go back further than 2010. So it's #1 or #2, or some combination of them.
But it can't be #2. There is just no way you can go 10 years w/o paying taxes. I don't think it is possible. And if it was possible, you'd have to be pulling a lot of sleazy stuff to do that. And it is clear the he wanted to run for office and did run for office in 2008. You'd have to be the dumbest fucking guy on the planet to think you could be the multi-millionaire that made tons of money and yet paid no taxes for 10 years AND still get elected.
So it has to be #1. I think the returns are basically legal but are filled with all sorts of crazy contradictory thing and borderline sleazy things. He deserves to be slammed if it doesn't release his tax forms because he's dodged taxes like crazy but he doesn't have the fucking balls to come clean and admit it.
Black Mamba
Member
I agree that Romney is smart enough not to do #3. 2010 is already out and if the other years are just like it, why would it change anything. He'd release them.
But it can't be #2. There is just no way you can go 10 years w/o paying taxes. I don't think it is possible. And if it was possible, you'd have to be pulling a lot of sleazy stuff to do that. And it is clear the he wanted to run for office and did run for office in 2008. You'd have to be the dumbest fucking guy on the planet to think you could be the multi-millionaire that made tons of money and yet paid no taxes for 10 years AND still get elected.
So it has to be #1. I think the returns are basically legal but are filled with all sorts of crazy contradictory thing and borderline sleazy things. He deserves to be slammed if it doesn't release his tax forms because he's dodged taxes like crazy but he doesn't have the fucking balls to come clean and admit it.
Unless he did falsify his gifts by willfully undervaluing them. And I can tell you, this is a very common thing done among the wealthy. So it wouldn't be unlikely.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I hope she isn't getting delusions of Bret Bri...whatever the hell his name way, the coke monkey guy.Interesting, Maddow says she's got some tape that she thinks will take the tax return thing in a completely new direction. It's something from some archives that she says she doesn't think people have seen for years. Wonder what it is. It'll be her lead story tomorrow.
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