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[Measley]

I'd love to see some statistics showing how many welfare recipients actually abuse the system.

It'll probably be as low as the number of welfare recipients using drugs in the state of Florida.

 

[richiek]

I love Sheiks. Iron Sheik is my favorite wrestler.

Actually, I was thinking:

 

[PhoenixDark]

Obama losing Colorado? Ehhh that seems like an outlier but we'll see

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I don't pretend they don't exist, but they don't make up most beneficiaries like they would have you believe. People are going to abuse any system in place, but in the interest of trying to avoid being a third world country I would rather a small percentage of people abuse the welfare system than have no welfare system at all.

I'd rather something be done to have those small percentage of the people not get the funds and those who do need it get the funds, it lowers overall costs, and makes more money available for deserving recipients.

The typical recipient of cash assistance only gets it for five months, and for food stamps, the typical duration of benefits is less than eight months. The idea that a majority of welfare receipients are just freeloaders who aren't trying is simply not true.

Well I wasn't saying it was limited to our only welfare, I should have been more clear that I was talking about all types of things like Medicare fraud.

Yes, but the questions are a.)are the number of people who abuse the system statistically significant and b.)do measures that people propose for "reforming" the system cause harm to legitimate participants that outweighs the benefit gained from curbing the abuse?

That's the problem that seems hard to honestly gauge as both ends of the spectrum have a vested interested in it tilting one way. I guess one possible]/i] way to look and see what needs the most work is the break down the forms of public assistance and see where the most fraud occurs (possibly by prosecutions and revoking of benefits, but I'm sure other factors would work too) and how. Then you can ensure fraudulent use is being more efficiently combated, which benefits everyone.

But in the end there are people who do leech/freeload and giving them as pass is a problem, it hurts those who need the funds and the overall amount of people who can be enrolled in public programs and the amount people can receive, don't you agree?

 

[Jackson50]

Tricky! It might be wrong (in the sense of inaccurate), but by no means is it equally wrong, partly just because assuming there are no cheats is closer to the truth than assuming there are so many cheats as to be a meaningful public policy issue, and because there's no moral animus to giving somebody support they don't really need, but there certainly is one to preventing people from getting support they do need.

Besides, I'm not aware of anyone positing a complete absence of abuse. Rather, I see most dispute the notion that abuse is abounding. It exists, but it's occurrence is frequently exaggerated.

 

[pigeon]

But in the end there are people who do leech/freeload and giving them as pass is a problem, it hurts those who need the funds and the overall amount of people who can be enrolled in public programs and the amount people can receive, don't you agree?

Studies on other public assistance programs have shown that the cost of creating and maintaining a compliance program would outweigh the financial benefit from preventing cheating. Of course, man other public assistance programs are more limited than others, but at the very least I think this suggests that compliance arguments on a financial basis are by no means a slam dunk, but rather would require some significant study to justify.

 

[RoninChaos]

PPP shows Obama leading in NC again. That is the only Swing state where polling averages show Romney with a lead over Obama

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...-leads-romney-favorability.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

All because of Transits



Also, would you pay 15 cents more per Pizza so that Papa Johns can provide Healthcare for its employees?

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/08/papa-johns-obamacare-will-raise-pizza-prices-131331.html

What a joke.

We very rarely order pizza anymore, but this is pretty shitty. Don't think I'll be doing business with Papa Johns any more.

I've started to really re-examine where my money goes in relation with how well companies treat their employees. I probably wouldn't have started to think this way if it wasn't for the job I have currently, and that's mainly due to my company's CEO. He gives a shit about his employees. The company is centered on people.

At the corporate headquarters, there's a pyramid on the floor. At the bottom is the employees, in the middle is the customers, and at the very tiny tip top, there's the shareholders. The idea is that employees are the foundation. If you take care of your employees, the employees will take care of the customers, and the customers will then take care of the shareholders.

He must have the right idea because our business has continued to grow year over year, we're a fortune top 25 company to work for, and the stock started at something like 10 bucks a share and is now up to a little under a 100.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Studies on other public assistance programs have shown that the cost of creating and maintaining a compliance program would outweigh the financial benefit from preventing cheating.

Sometimes the cost is worth it to keep the system honest. While I know in soundbites detailing anti-fraud and compliance efforts would leave people glazed over more than a discussion of foreign policy in the Korea's, it would give statistical proof to show the system is only helping those who need it as opposed to say the abuses in England's public assistance programs.

Of course, man other public assistance programs are more limited than others, but at the very least I think this suggests that compliance arguments on a financial basis are by no means a slam dunk, but rather would require some significant study to justify.

By all means study it. I look at it as a capital investment.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

I like how TPM's poll average jumps about two points in Obama's direction every time any non-Rasmussen poll comes out, haha.

 

[speculawyer]

WaPo: Romney confuses 'Sikh' with 'Sheik'

He just thinks turbans are really cool and he was calling them 'chic people'.


Romney is not as smart as I thought.

Who will play Mitt Romney in the inevitable HBO original movie?

They'll just use a robot.

 

[worldrunover]

He just thinks turbans are really cool and he was calling them 'chic people'.


Romney is not as smart as I thought.




They'll just use a robot.

It's insulting you would typecast a robot like that.

 

[Hawkian]

We very rarely order pizza anymore, but this is pretty shitty. Don't think I'll be doing business with Papa Johns any more.

I've started to really re-examine where my money goes in relation with how well companies treat their employees. I probably wouldn't have started to think this way if it wasn't for the job I have currently, and that's mainly due to my company's CEO. He gives a shit about his employees. The company is centered on people.

At the corporate headquarters, there's a pyramid on the floor. At the bottom is the employees, in the middle is the customers, and at the very tiny tip top, there's the shareholders. The idea is that employees are the foundation. If you take care of your employees, the employees will take care of the customers, and the customers will then take care of the shareholders.

He must have the right idea because our business has continued to grow year over year, we're a fortune top 25 company to work for, and the stock started at something like 10 bucks a share and is now up to a little under a 100.

Um...





we work together.

 

[adamsappel]

I can't wait for Clinton to be like "Romney's welfare policies are a piece of shit, Obama's got this" and for the whole thing to blow up in Mittens' face. I don't think it's a wise idea to challenge a Democratic president on a previous Democratic president's legacy when said president is still living.

I'm actually worried about Clinton's DNC speech. I fear he's not going to praise Obama so much as tout his own record.

Yeah, its probably strictly legal under current laws, but its a pretty clear violation of the intent of the system.

At the same time it's equally wrong to pretend they don't exist.

What are the conservative issues with welfare these days? It used to be black poor people having so many babies because the govt. would pay more. But, isn't that really just cleverly working within the legal framework, just like a $100 million IRA?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

What are the conservative issues with welfare these days? It used to be black poor people having so many babies because the govt. would pay more. But, isn't that really just cleverly working within the legal framework, just like a $100 million IRA?

But rich people are allowed to do that because they're better than the rest of us and deserve it.

 

[Lucky Forward]

Who will play Mitt Romney in the inevitable HBO original movie?

Ted Danson is just about the same age as Romney, I'll bet he could pull it off. I liked seeing his sleazy side on Damages.

 

[empty vessel]

I'd love to see some statistics showing how many welfare recipients actually abuse the system.

Negligible in comparison to how many high income earners abuse the tax system.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I like how TPM's poll average jumps about two points in Obama's direction every time any non-Rasmussen poll comes out, haha.

Anyone remember how TPM's poll average did in 2008? It would be interesting to compare a simple model that doesn't measure polls to say, Silver's model

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Anyone remember how TPM's poll average did in 2008? It would be interesting to compare a simple model that doesn't measure polls to say, Silver's model

The last composite I can find from them in 2008 had it Obama 52.1 / McCain 44.1 on Nov. 1.

Actual results: Obama 52.9 / McCain 45.7

http://web.archive.org/web/20090921...om/2008/11/tpm_track_composite_obama_lead.php

 

[Diablos]

wtf @ Quinnipiac, wtf @ Colorado.

 

[codhand]

Negligible in comparison to how many high income earners abuse the tax system.

love you brah

 

[Chumly]

I'd love to see some statistics showing how many welfare recipients actually abuse the system.

It'll probably be as low as the number of welfare recipients using drugs in the state of Florida.

I don't think I've ever seen studies showing meaningful amounts of welfare fraud. It would be exactly like flordia.

 

[izakq]

This is amazing.

Romney campaign blunder #2451:

A Mitt Romney spokesperson offered an unusual counterattack Tuesday to an ad in which a laid-off steelworker blames the presumptive GOP nominee for his family losing health care: If that family had lived in Massachusetts, it would have been covered by the former governor’s universal health care law.

“To that point, if people had been in Massachusetts, under Governor Romney’s health care plan, they would have had health care,” Andrea Saul, Romney’s campaign press secretary, said during an appearance on Fox News. “There are a lot of people losing their jobs and losing their health care in President [Barack] Obama’s economy.”

 

[The Technomancer]

This is amazing.

Romney campaign blunder #2451:

This is amazing

 

[Hawkian]

Holy bejesus. That's my new favorite.

 

[gcubed]

This is amazing.

Romney campaign blunder #2451:

See, i'm now fully convinced this is a joke campaign

 

[Suikoguy]

Holy bejesus. That's my new favorite.

No kidding, I did not think such a thing was possible.

 

[RDreamer]

The only thing that could be better than that is if Mitt himself had said it on video. Still... good lord...

 

[worldrunover]

This is amazing.

Romney campaign blunder #2451:

That has to be from The Onion. I know we say things like "lolz that's from the onion" but no, seriously, this one is so awesomely ironic that it has to be a joke.

 

[Aaron Strife]

This is amazing.

Romney campaign blunder #2451:

It was their fault for not living in Massachusetts.

Brilliant strategy.

 

[Big Baybee]

That welfare ad is truly disgusting. National media kicking Mitt's shit in for this?

 

[GaimeGuy]

Another serious issue with lies is that they are often simple and intuitively easy to understand -- the good lies are, at least.

The problem with the truth is that it is often complicated and doesn't pander to one "side" or another. It takes time to explain and many people still may not understand it.

This produces an asymmetry where it's easier and faster to throw out a huge wealth of lies than it is to rebut them. This is often referred to as the "Gish gallop," named after famous creationist proponent Duane Gish, whose debate style relied heavily on rapid firing so many lies and distortions that an evolutionary biologist couldn't hope to refute them in the allotted time.

Similarly in the political realm, there is so much spin, so many facts and figures to digest, that an average newscaster simply can't rebut them in an efficient time span.

Which is why it helps to have a news media held to a higher standard, be legally forbidden from lying on purpose, etc.

When you just let people spout whatever they want without any accountability to them or the dissemination of their statements, you end up with lies and mistruths dominating the news cycle.

You'll notice if you look at political debates among americans, a LOT of time is spent proving/disproving facts compared to other nations, a lot of time is wasted discussing basic axioms and retreading old ground. That's because in America, the facts can be deliberately false. So one journalist refers to end-of-life counseling as death panels, while another refers to it as things like estate planning and having a will and health directive written up.

Hell, it doesn't have to be an either/or thing. Pretty much all news reports on taxes as though they're not marginal. Remember the debate over the bush tax cut extensions in 2010? Specifically, the debate over whether to extend the cuts for the top 2 income brackets? That was reported as a a debate on increasing taxes for the top 2%, which is a blatant distortion. It makes it sound as though the debate was to cut taxes for 98% of people and raisethem for 2% of people, when the debate was about whether or not the 2% of americans who have income in the top 2 brackets as well as the bottom 4 brackets should receive additional tax cuts.

Just look at what Lindsey Graham just said.

 

[Crisco]

If only mental gymnastics were an Olympic event .....

 

[Aaron Strife]

Newt: Obama is the "Anti-Clinton"

“In many ways Obama is the anti-Clinton,” Gingrich, who clashed frequently with the president as speaker of the House in the 1990s, told reporters. “Clinton tried to move the party to the center, Obama’s moved it to the left.”

Gingrich also gushed of his former target: “I hope every American when they watch Bill Clinton speak will realize how much weaker and less effective Obama is than the man who is nominating him.” He called Obama “a direct threat to my two grandchildren’s future.”

Hey guys, you know who's the first great authority I think of related to the good things that came from Bill Clinton's presidency? Newt fucking Gingrich.

 

[Stinkles]

That welfare ad is truly disgusting. National media kicking Mitt's shit in for this?

Kind of. NBC and normal newspapaers have called him out on it. But whatever. They want ratings and readers more than rationality.

The three Rs.

 

[GaimeGuy]

We very rarely order pizza anymore, but this is pretty shitty. Don't think I'll be doing business with Papa Johns any more.

I've started to really re-examine where my money goes in relation with how well companies treat their employees. I probably wouldn't have started to think this way if it wasn't for the job I have currently, and that's mainly due to my company's CEO. He gives a shit about his employees. The company is centered on people.

At the corporate headquarters, there's a pyramid on the floor. At the bottom is the employees, in the middle is the customers, and at the very tiny tip top, there's the shareholders. The idea is that employees are the foundation. If you take care of your employees, the employees will take care of the customers, and the customers will then take care of the shareholders.

He must have the right idea because our business has continued to grow year over year, we're a fortune top 25 company to work for, and the stock started at something like 10 bucks a share and is now up to a little under a 100.

Um...





we work together.

:O

 

[reilo]

Um...





we work together.

Awkward...

 

[Aaron Strife]

Kind of. NBC and normal newspapaers have called him out on it. But whatever. They want ratings and readers more than rationality.

The three Rs.

Yeah Obama's campaign is the only thing that will really be pushing back on this lie. And here's how the media will spin it:

"Mitt Romney says that Barack Obama has a secret plot to put the entire country on welfare, which is bad. Obama says he doesn't. THE TRUTH IS SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE"

 

[Plinko]

This is amazing.

Romney campaign blunder #2451:

LOL

Literally every day something like this comes out. It's hilarious.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Perfect campaign.

 

[Hawkian]

:O

Awkward...

Yeahhh...

 

[speculawyer]

Yeah Obama's campaign is the only thing that will really be pushing back on this lie. And here's how the media will spin it:

"Mitt Romney says that Barack Obama has a secret plot to put the entire country on welfare, which is bad. Obama says he doesn't. THE TRUTH IS SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE"

Well Obama should do speech where he holds up the letter signed by Governor Mitt Romney where Mitt Romney requested such waivers. Wave that letter around and tell a few jokes about it.

 

[The Technomancer]

As this campaign heats up I'm increasingly grateful that my parents and I share similar political views. I would not want to be in the position I hear some GAFers talking about

 

[CharlieDigital]

WaPo: Romney confuses 'Sikh' with 'Sheik'

Gorka also pointed out that the comment came at the end of a long day of campaigning. Romney left his New Hampshire home at 7 a.m. and traveled between three states, holding three events and taping an interview before he took to the microphone at the evening finance reception in West Des Moines.

I like the implication that it's okay to screw things up and say stupid things because you've had a long day and you're tired. "Hey, it's not Mitt's fault that he isn't operating on his full cognitive capacity -- he's had a long day!"

// Cue 3 AM, Red Phone

It is truly a scary thought with Mittens.

 

[PhoenixDark]

As this campaign heats up I'm increasingly grateful that my parents and I share similar political views. I would not want to be in the position I hear some GAFers talking about

My parents are hardcore Obama stans, it's kind of annoying. I haven't been able to deflate their balloon on anything.

 

[Clevinger]

This is amazing.

Romney campaign blunder #2451:

A Mitt Romney spokesperson offered an unusual counterattack Tuesday to an ad in which a laid-off steelworker blames the presumptive GOP nominee for his family losing health care: If that family had lived in Massachusetts, it would have been covered by the former governor’s universal health care law.

“To that point, if people had been in Massachusetts, under Governor Romney’s health care plan, they would have had health care,” Andrea Saul, Romney’s campaign press secretary, said during an appearance on Fox News. “There are a lot of people losing their jobs and losing their health care in President [Barack] Obama’s economy.”

..................

I like the implication that it's okay to screw things up and say stupid things because you've had a long day and you're tired.

And keep in mind that's the "Kiss my ass!" guy. They didn't even suspend him for a full week.

 

[Suikoguy]

As this campaign heats up I'm increasingly grateful that my parents and I share similar political views. I would not want to be in the position I hear some GAFers talking about

I'm in a similar situation also, although my parents are registered republicans, they are smart enough to see what the fuck is happening.

 

[speculawyer]

As this campaign heats up I'm increasingly grateful that my parents and I share similar political views. I would not want to be in the position I hear some GAFers talking about

Yeah, me too. And it is kinda strange since my parents never really talked politics when I was younger because the were both resident aliens and could not vote.


And it is interesting talking to them since they are old and have all sorts of friends with the typical old person conservative views so they get to hear all sorts of views directly that I rarely hear as someone in Silicon Valley that is pretty blue. And even the conservatives in Silicon Valley tend to be the Libertarian types not social conservatives types.

 

[maximum360]

The GOP wins its base by building up credibility on social issues so they can sell them economic conservatism as well. It's a pretty dastardly combination.

I think as time goes on though, we're going to see more Wall Street Democrats selling that economic conservatism with social liberalism - Andrew Cuomo for example, Democrats in NY love him for passing gay marriage even though he's cut state budgets and lowered taxes on millionaires.


Democrats don't know how to play for the winning team.

As a Dem you have to walk a fine line. If you go on offense you can't be intellectually dishonest (let alone flat out lie) without being called on it. On the other hand, if you only play defense you get classified as not having enough testicular fortitude.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah, me too. And it is kinda strange since my parents never really talked politics when I was younger because the were both resident aliens and could not vote.


And it is interesting talking to them since they are old and have all sorts of friends with the typical old person conservative views so they get to hear all sorts of views directly that I rarely hear as someone in Silicon Valley that is pretty blue. And even the conservatives in Silicon Valley tend to be the Libertarian types not social conservatives types.

Yeah, in my case my parents have fairly liberal friends but the friction comes from our extended family. My mother has watched with a kind of slow horror as my maternal grandparents (grandmother in particular) have slid into "Obama is a socialist communist demon" mode

 

[ClassyPenguin]

As this campaign heats up I'm increasingly grateful that my parents and I share similar political views. I would not want to be in the position I hear some GAFers talking about

Same here though we still have some arguments on stuff like drug policy. But nothing much other than just disagreements.

Yeah, me too. And it is kinda strange since my parents never really talked politics when I was younger because the were both resident aliens and could not vote.
.

Mine became citizens in like 2000 or so. They take their civic duty pretty seriously.