PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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I hate this Clinton inevitability paradigm, no one is out there on the Democratic side pushing liberal ideals. The Republicans have a dozen candidates in front of every camera pushing conservative ideas and there's hardly any Democratic surrogates anywhere. Clinton may or may not actually want the nomination but we're in for at least another year of silence while she gets her rest. The lack of any urgency amongst Democrats to get a message out is pretty alarming. Obama is out there but he's not changing any minds at this point.
 
TheHeretic said:
Murray never walked away from the book, he defends it to this day, and expanded on its ideas with coming apart. Science can and does measure intelligence in people and other animals, it isn't impossible by any means. Saying people who study these things are automatically racists is ridiculous.
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Intelligence is a nebulous concept. I never said studying it is wrong just that its not established science and full of uncertainties and changing ideas. We don't really know what intellgences is. Combining that with a fake concept such as race (a Cultural and political not scienticifc concept) to come to a conclution is silly and driven by politics not science. Again its in the tradition of eugentics and phrenology. People wanting to prove their racism. Comming apart as a different thesis and is a conscious attempt to defleft charges of racism. It has its own problems and points to the same condescending and unsupported right wing idea government help is bad. That's what all his books have as a common theme. Bell curve said genetic and cultural differences made help useless and coming apart says help makes things worse so we should stop helping to stop hurting.

Its all horrible. I won't have access to a computer so I can't provide links and make this a better post but late Monday I can if I remember.
 
The Bell Curve's racism is almost incidental, its main arguments is that the US is a meritocracy and that said merit is hereditary.
One of the main problems defending those ideas is that minorities has lower economic outcomes, I guess it can get some credit for having the balls to follow those two terrible points to their conclusion that minorities are just stupider than white people, but honestly I think that focusing only on its racist points misses its general awfulness.
 
fallagin said:
Righties really want to get in on this thing called 'relating to regular people' I guess. They are really trying their hardest arent they.
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They never will though so long as their pundits are smug self-conceited jackasses.

Liberals are able to laugh at themselves, conservatives take shit too seriously to be funny. There's hatred seething in every joke.

Exceptions on both sides of course.
 
Conservatives will never have a legit Daily Show competitor until they learn how to do comedy and satire without the mean-spirited streak that's far too often laced within their comedic material.
 
Chichikov said:
The Bell Curve's racism is almost incidental, its main arguments is that the US is a meritocracy and that said merit is hereditary.
One of the main problems defending those ideas is that minorities has lower economic outcomes, I guess it can get some credit for having the balls to follow those two terrible points to their conclusion that minorities are just stupider than white people, but honestly I think that focusing only on its racist points misses its general awfulness.
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Well I focused on the racism because that's the point Ryan highlighted with his inner city comments. I think your argument is more loosing ground than bell curve
 
Averon said:
Conservatives will never have a legit Daily Show competitor until they learn how to do comedy and satire without the mean-spirited streak that's far too often laced within their comedic material.
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I think they also have a problem in wanting a Republican version of The Daily Show because they assume Jon Stewart is just a biased Democrat out to get conservatives.

Like, Democrat : Republican :: The Daily Show : ? (Conservative The Daily Show)

To be sure, Jon is left-leaning, but he makes plenty of jokes about Democrats and liberals. It's just that conservatives give him much more. Fox News is basically a 24 hour network for TDS material.

Besides, Colbert is the conservative version of TDS.
 
Right, so Nevada is basically having it's 2016 Senate race two years early this year.

Basically, if the Democrat wins the race for Lt. Gov, the current governor Brian Sandoval wont challenge Reid for the Senate in 2016, if the Republican wins, then Sandoval will run and absolutely annihilate Reid. Sandoval is a moderate and is just so popular in the state that he would easily beat Reid.
 
WayneMorse said:
Right, so Nevada is basically having it's 2016 Senate race two years early this year.

Basically, if the Democrat wins the race for Lt. Gov, the current governor Brian Sandoval wont challenge Reid for the Senate in 2016, if the Republican wins, then Sandoval will run and absolutely annihilate Reid. Sandoval is a moderate and is just so popular in the state that he would easily beat Reid.
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Well at least he's talking about the Senate and not the presidency. And 2016 will have plenty of pickup opportunities for the Democrats.
 
What are they going to joke about without coming off as dickwad? Gay marriage? pot legalization? civil rights? In terms of foreign policy, will they make fun of diplomacy? Of course politicians being hypocrites is a fair game. But I cant think of anything substantive with regards to policy and agenda they can satirize. In an any case, I'm sure whatever conserva daily show they create will close after a few months when they make a xenophobic or racist caricature of a minnority. But until then they will be another source of fodder for jon stewart.
 
WayneMorse said:
Right, so Nevada is basically having it's 2016 Senate race two years early this year.

Basically, if the Democrat wins the race for Lt. Gov, the current governor Brian Sandoval wont challenge Reid for the Senate in 2016, if the Republican wins, then Sandoval will run and absolutely annihilate Reid. Sandoval is a moderate and is just so popular in the state that he would easily beat Reid.
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Never underestimate Harry Reid.
 
Also, are there any radio stations left that carry left wing content in L.A. anymore?

I'm getting really fucking annoyed having to listen to..."music" everyday. You crazy kids with your horrible tastes.
 
APKmetsfan said:
Well I focused on the racism because that's the point Ryan highlighted with his inner city comments. I think your argument is more loosing ground than bell curve
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I have not read Losing Ground, this is just my impression of The Bell Curve.
Let me try to restate it -
I think The Bell Curve's main thesis is not racist in and by itself, but it uses racism to reconcile issues said thesis has with reality.
It doesn't make it better by the way, it's just an observation, but I think it's an important one because this book and the policies it espouse are so awful that as crazy as it sounds, just saying "it's racist" is almost giving it a pass. I wouldn't trust anyone who support such trash in any position of power, even if that person was not a racist.

As for Ryan and his comments, I think he just used dog-whistle words, it's almost muscle memory for GOPers, especially when you're on conservative talk radio with that shitstain Bill Bennett. I mean, his argument (as much as there was even one) doesn't even supported by Murray.
It wouldn't surprise me if he just skimmed/wikipedia that book, he's such an intellectual lightweight.
 
Averon said:
Conservatives will never have a legit Daily Show competitor until they learn how to do comedy and satire without the mean-spirited streak that's far too often laced within their comedic material.
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They always spend too much time protecting their own views.

Sometimes the Daily Show wanders a little too much into the political, but most of the time the comedy is just pointing out how people are going against their internal logic or they're just saying something absurd.

Conservative comedy 90% of the time has an unreal mean streak to it, or will say "ha ha that's funny because <political statement>"


Like, if I could point out for a moment, the conservative image macros I see on Facebook will always say something at the end of it like "You're just not that smart, huh?" or "You're some special sort of idiot". While the dem and lib image macros usually just state contradicting facts without the personal insult at the end. Kind of funny for a base that's all "rar elitism"
 
RustyNails said:
What are they going to joke about without coming off as dickwad? Gay marriage? pot legalization? civil rights? In terms of foreign policy, will they make fun of diplomacy? Of course politicians being hypocrites is a fair game. But I cant think of anything substantive with regards to policy and agenda they can satirize. In an any case, I'm sure whatever conserva daily show they create will close after a few months when they make a xenophobic or racist caricature of a minnority. But until then they will be another source of fodder for jon stewart.
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I think goal is not to be "right" but to be funny. I don't think it's necessarily a conservative problem you're just looking at a well oiled Daily Show machine vs a bunch of guys who have no idea what they're doing. The Daily Show works because it has good writers and Jon has been around forever and knows how to find good content that is a joke in itself. Some of the funniest moments are when the clips are short and ridiculous and it just cuts to Jon's stunned face after the video. The Harrison Ford part could easily be used better. The video itself is funny but you need someone who's not a shit comic standing next to a tv woodenly telling jokes off the prompter like it's a politics tosh.0.

You also need the contrast of serious news with humor. Which means everything from the sets, the writing, the reporting, the wardrobe, everything. Stewart has a desk, a big newsroom, he's writing stuff down, he has his reporters out in the field. It's all required. The Flipside has none of that and after the jokes they move over to a few lounge chairs to talk about capitalism. Low budget, low effort.
 
East Lake said:
I think goal is not to be "right" but to be funny. I don't think it's necessarily a conservative problem you're just looking at a well oiled Daily Show machine vs a bunch of guys who have no idea what they're doing. The Daily Show works because it has good writers and Jon has been around forever and knows how to find good content that is a joke in itself. Some of the funniest moments are when the clips are short and ridiculous and it just cuts to Jon's stunned face after the video. The Harrison Ford part could easily be used better. The video itself is funny but you need someone who's not a shit comic standing next to a tv woodenly telling jokes off the prompter like it's a politics tosh.0.

You also need the contrast of serious news with humor. Which means everything from the sets, the writing, the reporting, the wardrobe, everything. Stewart has a desk, a big newsroom, he's writing stuff down, he has his reporters out in the field. It's all required. The Flipside has none of that and after the jokes they move over to a few lounge chairs to talk about capitalism. Low budget, low effort.
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It's also about the material. They have to be willing to make fun of themselves and what they support, something the Daily Show is more than willing to do. Unless they're willing to do that, more often than not the show will come off as mean spirited and even spiteful. Self-deprecation is an important part of comedy, you have to be willing to look like an idiot to be funny.
 
East Lake said:
Yeah definitely. Hard to pull off when the entire purpose of the show is to compete with liberals.
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Hard? Try impossible.

Which is why it's destined for failure. It's nothing more than a vanity exercise and I have no doubt many of the comedians they have approached to host have told them just that. If the producers were even smart enough to realize they needed a comedian in the first place.
 
As Mitt Romney found out, bashing renewable power in all red states or swing states is not really a smart thing to do.

wind-generation-percent-table-2013_large.jpg


Ooooooaklahoma where the wind comes sweeping down the plain . . .
 
What strikes me about the promo material is that it's actually nothing that you can't already get on Fox or talk radio. Mocking liberals for not understanding capitalism is not exactly breaking new ground. Celebrity hypocrisy on climate change is called out all the time. The delivery doesn't even stand out as being all that different than what's available elsewhere. Bill O'Reilly could deliver exactly the same lines in exactly the same way and it wouldn't stand out as out-of-place on his show.
 
Gotchaye said:
What strikes me about the promo material is that it's actually nothing that you can't already get on Fox or talk radio. Mocking liberals for not understanding capitalism is not exactly breaking new ground. Celebrity hypocrisy on climate change is called out all the time. The delivery doesn't even stand out as being all that different than what's available elsewhere. Bill O'Reilly could deliver exactly the same lines in exactly the same way and it wouldn't stand out as out-of-place on his show.
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Does bashing hypocrisy on climate change really work or make sense? If your position is that climate change isn't happening then who cares if they are hypocritical since the point is moot? If you don't believe climate change is real then is it funny that Harrison Ford has 7 aircraft?

Now liberals also bash conservatives for being hypocritical on "family values" issues but I think liberals do believe in "family values" . . . but they just believe those "family values" do not exclude gay couples or single-parent homes.


I was going to say that one of my favorite Daily Show segments was one where they were bashing Massachusetts liberals but guess it really wasn't from a conservative viewpoint . . . the situation where they were bashing the people that were fighting against the Cape Wind turbines (which included several Kennedys). I guess supporting the wind turbines was from a liberal view.
 
B-Dubs said:
It's also about the material. They have to be willing to make fun of themselves and what they support, something the Daily Show is more than willing to do. Unless they're willing to do that, more often than not the show will come off as mean spirited and even spiteful. Self-deprecation is an important part of comedy, you have to be willing to look like an idiot to be funny.
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I can't imagine that show making a serious attempt to make fun of/satirize pro-lifers, the NRA, Evangelicals, or tax cut advocates. They would fear their audience's reaction too much for them to make more that a very weak, off-handed attempt.
 
The problem with being a conservative comedian is your audience consists of people who have no sense of humor, even though they'll desperately tell you otherwise. Anything with a chance of being funny isn't a joke to them, and any topics they believe would be funny come off as mean spirited. They are Mister Burns laughing at the crippled Irishman, but having Homer beaten when he tries to tell jokes at the old man's expense.
 
Aaron said:
The problem with being a conservative comedian is your audience consists of people who have no sense of humor, even though they'll desperately tell you otherwise. Anything with a chance of being funny isn't a joke to them, and any topics they believe would be funny come off as mean spirited. They are Mister Burns laughing at the crippled Irishman, but having Homer beaten when he tries to tell jokes at the old man's expense.
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Yeah.

Don't make jokes about abortion, that's serious! They're killing babies!

Don't make jokes about guns, that's serious! 2nd Amendment!

The result is that conservative jokes end up being like "That Obama, right? He's always trying to kill babies and take our guns. WHAT AN IDIOT, also he's black so that means he likes chicken LOL"
 
East Lake said:
I think goal is not to be "right" but to be funny. I don't think it's necessarily a conservative problem you're just looking at a well oiled Daily Show machine vs a bunch of guys who have no idea what they're doing. The Daily Show works because it has good writers and Jon has been around forever and knows how to find good content that is a joke in itself.
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B-Dubs said:
It's also about the material. They have to be willing to make fun of themselves and what they support, something the Daily Show is more than willing to do. Unless they're willing to do that, more often than not the show will come off as mean spirited and even spiteful. Self-deprecation is an important part of comedy, you have to be willing to look like an idiot to be funny.
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This is why the first four years of Red Eye and Tough Crowd with Colin Quinn worked so well yet were also seeped with conservative/libertarian views. The primary goal was to be entertaining, use great comedian guests (one of RE's advantages was getting many of the same people to join in...Jim Norton, Sherrod Small, Rich Vos, etc.) and know when to stop and be funny again if things got too serious/intense.

And recognize that your show isn't supposed to be using politics to be entertaining, it's supposed to be entertaining while containing politics. You can spend a week making fun of Weiner just to make fun of Weiner or whatever.

If your goal is to be the conservative Daily Show you've already lost. Your goal should be to be The Daily Show and then just let your conservative views naturally color it.
 
Incognito said:
Given that the House is not going to flip and the Dems are basically assured of losing the Senate, this could be a good thing for the inevitable Hillary candidacy. Gives her something to run against.
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Noooooooooooooo

but yeah I think it is inevitable. The map is bad by default. Anything else is just gravy for the GOP. Fuuuuck.
 
Oblivion said:
Here's a pretty good article on why conservative humor often fails:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/ward-anderson/conservative-comedy_b_4297911.html
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Pretty spot on.

Not only that, but aside of from Bill Maher, most "Liberal humor" also doesn't identify as Liberal humor.

It's not intentionally partisan. Conservatives will claim otherwise, but conservatives also make it too easy to be picked on for comedy bits.

When a show comes out and openly identifies as "Conservative humor", you know the show is going to try to hard with partisanship. When the purpose of this show is solely to attack "liberals" in a comedic fashion, they are going to look stupid.

"Minimum wage? Hah! Back in my day we earned 2 dollars an hour and we were grateful!"

"Gay marriage? What's next! A farmer and his pig getting married?"

"So I was walking down the street and saw a homeless guy getting harassed by working class folk telling the guy to get a job!"

The article is right. Defending the status quo isn't comedic.
 
CharlieDigital said:
What's crazy is that two of the richest men in the world happen to be quite liberal on taxation.
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Shit like that is why I don't think most of the rich are "greedy" in the traditional sense, more along the lines of "stupid."

A greedy person who TRULY wanted more money would bend over backwards to help the middle class because he/she A)Gets richer and B)Gets richer without the political baggage that comes with it.

What kind of moron would pass that up?
 
That article seems pretty off to me. If the foundation of good comedy is the underdog dynamic, how exactly doesn't that apply to most people regardless of political views? Who is more of an underdog (in his own eyes) than a working or middle class 30+ year old white male? Jokes about being taxed too much or hypocritical "elites" telling you what to do are like meat and potato stuff for comedians.

Lenny Bruce was libertarian, Doug Stanhope is libertarian. To me that should settle the issue to rest.

The problem with modern "conservative humor" is that it's just a snarky extension of the typical conservative mindset: fear and victimization. The humor is secondary to wallowing in victim-hood and being quite angry at someone/some thing. And I don't mean victim-hood in the sense of like, Louie CK "I'm a fat ginger who is divorced, getting old, etc." That's funny because we can identify with that type of self deprecating humor, and it's not really about being a "victim;" we're laughing at Louie CK as well as ourselves, friends, etc. Modern conservative humor is more like "I'm fat but hey it's my choice, so why is Michelle Obama trying to make me eat healthy."

It's also worth noting that even "liberal" comedians make fun of democrats. Conservative humor doesn't aim at conservatives well, and instead it just becomes more focus on "elites" no one gives a shit about. Making fun of Madonna for being a hypocrite can be funny, but Al Gore? Michelle Obama? Harrison Ford? No one gives a shit.
 
Comedy relies heavily on juxtaposition and taking the role of the "other," and conservatives certainly paint themselves as a peculiar, distinct "other" (at least in the media).

From my experience, most jokes in the conservative tradition are only funny when paired with a more liberal comedian clearly mocking the sentiment.

In barely related news, I'd like to think this Justine Tunney person is just a terrible comedian.
 
TacticalFox88 said:
A greedy person who TRULY wanted more money would bend over backwards to help the middle class because he/she A)Gets richer and B)Gets richer without the political baggage that comes with it.
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Yup. The essence of capitalism demands the creation or capture of new or existing markets. Guys like Gates and Buffett know that you can't keep driving consumer demand if big chunks of your market is worried about how to make ends meet.
 
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