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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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kingkitty

Member
The whole talk about Justice Ginsburg retiring or not retiring has got me thinking. If a Dem won 2016, would Scalia and Kennedy hold on to their Supreme Court job until after the 2020 elections? By 2016 they'll both be 80. Ginsburg is currently 81.

If a Dem wins reelection in 2020, would they really keep holding on in the hopes of a Repub win in 2024?

Then again former Justice Stevens is 94 years old, and he only retired 4 years ago...

edit: If Hilldawg doesn't get BENGHAZI'ed out of the White House, the Supreme Court could become the Liberal Court in 10 or so years.
 

Piecake

Member
The whole talk about Justice Ginsburg retiring or not retiring has got me thinking. If a Dem won 2016, would Scalia and Kennedy hold on to their Supreme Court job until after the 2020 elections? By 2016 they'll both be 80. Ginsburg is currently 81.

If a Dem wins reelection in 2020, would they really keep holding on in the hopes of a Repub win in 2024?

Then again former Justice Stevens is 94 years old, and he only retired 4 years ago...

I should try to be a chief justice. They sure seem to live a long time
 
The whole talk about Justice Ginsburg retiring or not retiring has got me thinking. If a Dem won 2016, would Scalia and Kennedy hold on to their Supreme Court job until after the 2020 elections? By 2016 they'll both be 80. Ginsburg is currently 81.

If a Dem wins reelection in 2020, would they really keep holding on in the hopes of a Repub win in 2024?

Then again former Justice Stevens is 94 years old, and he only retired 4 years ago...

Well Scalia is kept alive by pure spite so I would assume he's basically immortal.
 
This is old but I just saw it pop up on my twitter

Bly7AcLCMAAE1Wt.png:large


Get to work PD
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
The message of the article seemed pretty clear. That being that inequality isnt THAT bad because people constantly move into the top 1%.

Did we read the same article? The point of the article was that the 1% isn't a static block of income-earners, not that inequality "isnt THAT bad."

That doesnt mean a damn thing though because their wealth is earning them lots of interest, a large portion of which are not being treated as income since they havent sold it yet. Putting it in another way, a whole crapload of (potential) income is being hidden by the stock market

That's not interest. Interest is always income. You're talking about unrealized capital gains. Those aren't counted as income, because no increase in value has been reduced to cash.

Also, as I should have said earlier, the article you posted drew information from one year. So it's impossible to say from the article--however logical it may seem to assume it--that the top 1% in wealth is any more static than the top 1% in income.
 

Piecake

Member
Did we read the same article? The point of the article was that the 1% isn't a static block of income-earners, not that inequality "isnt THAT bad."

Yes, the point of the article is to show top 1% income earners in a year isnt a static block. This implies that that the United States has sufficient economic/social mobility that people can move up from the lower rungs to the highest rung easier than people have assumed. This implies that inequality isnt that bad because social mobility isnt that bad. It also is misleading because the top 1% of income earners is VASTLY VASTLY different than the top 1% of wealth holders. The difference is not explained in the article so people who read it coulld easily be confused.


That's not interest. Interest is always income. You're talking about unrealized capital gains. Those aren't counted as income, because no increase in value has been reduced to cash.

Also, as I should have said earlier, the article you posted drew information from one year. So it's impossible to say from the article--however logical it may seem to assume it--that the top 1% in wealth is any more static than the top 1% in income.

Youre being pedantic. No shit they arent counted as income. Thats the freaking point. That the top 1% earnings are being obscured by the stock market because they haven't realized their capital gains. They are gaining vast amounts of wealth without gaining income, and its far easier to gain wealth with wealth than labor. Moreover, just because someone enters the top 1% for income earners that year does not mean that they suddenly become large capital investors, which is the key mark of the truly wealthy. They can still easily be dependent on their labor for their income.

I mean, seriously, do you honestly think that income is a better metric than wealth for inequality/mobility? What does income inequality actually tell us when the truly wealthy are not dependent on their labor (shit that gets labled as income) about economic stratification/inequality in America? Wealth just seems like a superior metric in every regard.

As for wealth static, well, Thomas Piketty wrote a whole freakin book on the topic, Capital in the 21st century, so you can always check out that
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Yes, the point of the article is to show top 1% income earners in a year isnt a static block. This implies that that the United States has sufficient economic/social mobility that people can move up from the lower rungs to the highest rung easier than people have assumed. This implies that inequality isnt that bad because social mobility isnt that bad.

Oh, is this that top-secret conservative code words thing again? You're making multiple logical leaps so that the article is secretly making a statement that, for all we know, the authors don't even believe in. What follows is the researcher's conclusion, and should be compared with your double-secret hidden meaning (the discernment of which I assume involves counting only every-so-many letters of the actual text):

NY Times Op-Ed/Advertisement said:
Rather than talking about the 1 percent and the 99 percent as if they were forever fixed, it would make much more sense to talk about the fact that Americans are likely to be exposed to both prosperity and poverty during their lives, and to shape our policies accordingly. As such, we have much more in common with one another than we dare to realize.


It also is misleading because the top 1% of income earners is VASTLY VASTLY different than the top 1% of wealth holders.

According to your article, they were 50% exactly the same people in 2007. Maybe you're using an idiosyncratic definition of "VASTLY VASTLY"?

The difference is not explained in the article so people who read it coulld easily be confused.

I assume readers of the NY Times are sufficiently well-educated that they don't think "wealth" when an article says "income." I could be wrong.

Youre being pedantic.

I'm being precise. Capital gains are not interest. You said interest, but meant capital gains. I corrected you. Suck it up and move on.

No shit they arent counted as income. Thats the freaking point.

We're in agreement on this point.

Moreover, just because someone enters the top 1% for income earners that year does not mean that they suddenly become large capital investors, which is the key mark of the truly wealthy.

I'd have thought the key mark of the truly wealthy was a high net worth, regardless of the source of income. Are you suggesting I'm wrong?

I mean, seriously, do you honestly think that income is a better metric than wealth for inequality/mobility?

You're misunderstanding my argument. My argument is that the article is not misleading.

As for wealth static, well, Thomas Piketty wrote a whole freakin book on the topic, Capital in the 21st century, so you can always check out that

I may check it out.

EDIT:

(Piecake, I'm having a bit of fun with you at this point, so you shouldn't feel any need to respond to the above. I absolutely agree with you that wealth disparities need to be considered, and not just income disparities. But I think the article I posted is good for what it is, and I don't think it's misleading simply because it doesn't address wealth disparities.)

Seriously, though, you meant capital gains.
 
From this:

Rather than talking about the 1 percent and the 99 percent as if they were forever fixed, it would make much more sense to talk about the fact that Americans are likely to be exposed to both prosperity and poverty during their lives, and to shape our policies accordingly. As such, we have much more in common with one another than we dare to realize.

This is a bullshit measurement, though.

Numerous people in the top 1% in this country lose money in a given year, sometimes millions. That is their income is negative. That does not mean they are no longer in the top 1%. Warren Buffett losing $10 million in 2013 doesn't mean he's no longer in the top 1% but the analysis done above would remove him from the category.

When people talk about the 1% and social mobility, we're talking about long term status, not a single given year. For many of those people, it could be inheriting money which they then use to pay of numerous loans and shit.

It's actually comical to solely look at a single year's "income."

and a whopping 73 percent will spend a year in the top 20 percent of the income distribution.

Does this even sound remotely like reality, to you? 73% do not get to live like the top 20% in their lifetime. They may receive enough "income" in a given year to qualify for top 20% of "income" earners for that specific year, but it does not put them in the 20% of US households. It simply means they got a one time random injection of cash of which they probably keep very little in the end (after taxes and debts).

It's a bastardized attempt to look at social mobility. It's hogwash.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
This is a bullshit measurement, though.

Numerous people in the top 1% in this country lose money in a given year, sometimes millions. That is their income is negative. That does not mean they are no longer in the top 1%. Warren Buffett losing $10 million in 2013 doesn't mean he's no longer in the top 1% but the analysis done above would remove him from the category.

I assume that that's exactly what that means. If Buffett ends up with a net loss, I assume that means his income would be treated as negative, and not in the top 1% of income for that year. That doesn't mean that he's not still among the wealthiest 1%. However, I assume that Buffett is one of the 0.6% that remained in the top 1% of income-earners throughout the period studied.

When people talk about the 1% and social mobility, we're talking about long term status, not a single given year.

I don't think you can speak for "people" generally. I've seen plenty who refer to the top 1% in terms of income, rather than wealth.

For many of those people, it could be inheriting money which they then use to pay of numerous loans and shit.

There, it depends on how income is calculated. If income means "taxable income," then money inherited is not income at all. But I agree with your point that many of those who are among the top income-earners are there temporarily, thanks to some sudden windfall.

Does this even sound remotely like reality, to you? 73% do not get to live like the top 20% in their lifetime. They may receive enough "income" in a given year to qualify for top 20% of "income" earners for that specific year, but it does not put them in the 20% of US households. It simply means they got a one time random injection of cash of which they probably keep very little in the end (after taxes and debts).

It's a bastardized attempt to look at social mobility. It's hogwash.

You're complaining about a problem that isn't there--the same problem Piecake complained about. If a family's income is in the top 20% for a year, then, for that year, they are in the top 20% of income-earners. What you're saying--I gather--is that that doesn't mean they're in the top 20% of wealth-holders. But that's not the point of the article, which is concerned exclusively with income.
 
I assume that that's exactly what that means. If Buffett ends up with a net loss, I assume that means his income would be treated as negative, and not in the top 1% of income for that year. That doesn't mean that he's not still among the wealthiest 1%. However, I assume that Buffett is one of the 0.6% that remained in the top 1% of income-earners throughout the period studied.

It means they weren't in the top 1% of "income" earners for year X, it does not mean they're not in the top 1%.

Looking at the top 1% of income earners for a given year is a useless exercise. It tells us nothing important.


I don't think you can speak for "people" generally. I've seen plenty who refer to the top 1% in terms of income, rather than wealth.

There are times when it makes sense (like discussing tax rates) but when people rally against the "top 1%," they are not talking about people who earn income in the top 1% for a random year and never again. They are talking about the top 1% in terms of wealth.

And yes, I can speak for people generally on this one. I am using common sense.

You're complaining about a problem that isn't there--the same problem Piecake complained about. If a family's income is in the top 20% for a year, then, for that year, they are in the top 20% of income-earners. What you're saying--I gather--is that that doesn't mean they're in the top 20% of wealth-holders. But that's not the point of the article, which is concerned exclusively with income.

No, my problem is real and I stated it in my first comment.

"This is a bullshit measurement, though."

It measures nothing useful and is only given to obfuscate the issue of income inequality. It serves no other purpose but to confuse people on the issue.
 

Piecake

Member
Oh, is this that top-secret conservative code words thing again? You're making multiple logical leaps so that the article is secretly making a statement that, for all we know, the authors don't even believe in. What follows is the researcher's conclusion, and should be compared with your double-secret hidden meaning (the discernment of which I assume involves counting only every-so-many letters of the actual text):

Who cares what their intentions were? Its the meaning that any rational/regular person can take from the article is what is important. While it might be true that an ok portion of the population could enter the top 1% of income earners from that year, that does not mean that they are among the wealthiest 1%. Thats the problem of the article because it makes it seem that the wealthiest 1% is in reach for regular people when it is not.






According to your article, they were 50% exactly the same people in 2007. Maybe you're using an idiosyncratic definition of "VASTLY VASTLY"?

The difference I was talking about was wealth. Considering that the point of the article was to show that people can move easier into the top 1% than previously assumed, I think you would be hard pressed to argue that these new people magicked out 9 million instead of 400k.


I assume readers of the NY Times are sufficiently well-educated that they don't think "wealth" when an article says "income." I could be wrong.

I assume the average reader of the NY Times is like your average person, and the average person, I think, has a good chance of easily misunderstanding wealth and income.

I'm being precise. Capital gains are not interest. You said interest, but meant capital gains. I corrected you. Suck it up and move on.

Thats pretty much the definition of pedantic. Correcting something minor while ignoring the main point. Suck it up and move on.



I'd have thought the key mark of the truly wealthy was a high net worth, regardless of the source of income. Are you suggesting I'm wrong?

Of course you are right. It is, however, disingenuous to suggest that the wealthy do not gain a signficant portion of their wealth from investments and that it is not easier to gain wealth through capital than it is through labor. This should all be obvious

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...nd-rise-of-the-001-percent-in-america/283793/

Some data for you

You're misunderstanding my argument. My argument is that the article is not misleading.

Well, then whats the point of it? I think ignoring capital and wealth is pretty foolish when you are discussing economic mobility. Anything that does this is misleading.

I may check it out.

From a review

To back up his arguments, he provides a trove of data. He and Saez pioneered the construction of simple charts showing the shares of over-all income received by the richest ten per cent, the richest one per cent, and, even, the richest 0.1 per cent. When the data are presented in this way, Piketty notes, it is easy for people to “grasp their position in the contemporary hierarchy (always a useful exercise, particularly when one belongs to the upper centiles of the distribution and tends to forget it, as is often the case with economists).” Anybody who reads the newspaper will be aware that, in the United States, the “one per cent” is taking an ever-larger slice of the economic pie. But did you know that the share of the top income percentile is bigger than it was in South Africa in the nineteen-sixties and about the same as it is in Colombia, another deeply divided society, today? In terms of income generated by work, the level of inequality in the United States is “probably higher than in any other society at any time in the past, anywhere in the world,” Piketty writes.

Some people claim that the takeoff at the very top reflects the emergence of a new class of “superstars”—entrepreneurs, entertainers, sports stars, authors, and the like—who have exploited new technologies, such as the Internet, to enlarge their earnings at the expense of others in their field. If this is true, high rates of inequality may reflect a harsh and unalterable reality: outsized spoils are going to go to Roger Federer, James Patterson, and the WhatsApp guys. Piketty rejects this account. The main factor, he insists, is that major companies are giving their top executives outlandish pay packages. His research shows that “supermanagers,” rather than “superstars,” account for up to seventy per cent of the top 0.1 per cent of the income distribution. (In 2010, you needed to earn at least $1.5 million to qualify for this élite group.) Rising income inequality is largely a corporate phenomenon.

Many C.E.O.s receive a lot of stock and stock options. Over time, they and other rich people earn a lot of money from the capital they have accumulated: it comes in the form of dividends, capital gains, interest payments, profits from private businesses, and rents. Income from capital has always played a key role in capitalism. Piketty claims that its role is growing even larger, and that this helps explain why inequality is rising so fast. Indeed, he argues that modern capitalism has an internal law of motion that leads, not inexorably but generally, toward less equal outcomes. The law is simple. When the rate of return on capital—the annual income it generates divided by its market value—is higher than the economy’s growth rate, capital income will tend to rise faster than wages and salaries, which rarely grow faster than G.D.P.

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2014/03/31/140331crbo_books_cassidy?currentPage=all
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I liked this graph.

Man, at that point, screw talking about percentages and dealing with with people misinformed about their own bracket. We should just talk about the 30,000 people that went from owning 3% of our wealth to 11%.

Who is honestly, really motivated to rally in defense of 30,000 people that are clearly taking more out of our economy than they should.
 

ISOM

Member
I was wondering, do most people here actually want a hillary presidency if she wins? Isn't she noticeable regressive in multiple areas. Like drug laws and being a warhawk somewhat?
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Looking at the top 1% of income earners for a given year is a useless exercise. It tells us nothing important.

This is either shamelessly disingenuous or your memory is faulty. The usual division between the 1% and the 99% has been related to income, rather than wealth, since Occupy Wall Street popularized those numbers in 2011. So, no, you clearly can't speak for "people generally."

It measures nothing useful and is only given to obfuscate the issue of income inequality. It serves no other purpose but to confuse people on the issue.

Showing that the division between the top 1% of income earners and the bottom 99% percent of income earners is not static obfuscates the issue of income inequality? Obfuscates? Are you sure you understand what that word means?

Who cares what their intentions were? Its the meaning that any rational/regular person can take from the article is what is important. While it might be true that an ok portion of the population could enter the top 1% of income earners from that year, that does not mean that they are among the wealthiest 1%. Thats the problem of the article because it makes it seem that the wealthiest 1% is in reach for regular people when it is not.

I guess I should just agree with you at this point: if you misunderstand the article, or insist on reading it in an unjustified way, it most definitely does seem to say that.

I assume the average reader of the NY Times is like your average person, and the average person, I think, has a good chance of easily misunderstanding wealth and income.

I don't think the feeble-mindedness of NY Times readers justifies calling an article that was clear as to its meaning "misleading." Better to just say, "Well, the article's pretty straightforward, but they should include a disclaimer for all the people who don't understand the words."

Thats pretty much the definition of pedantic. Correcting something minor while ignoring the main point.

I didn't ignore the main point. I acknowledged that the main point (after taking into account the wrongness of your word choice) was correct. But what you said was not correct, because you used the wrong word. Why do you keep dwelling on this?

Of course you are right. It is, however, disingenuous to suggest that the wealthy do not gain a signficant portion of their wealth from investments and that it is not easier to gain wealth through capital than it is through labor.

Good thing nobody's done that, then.

This should all be obvious

Could a NY Times reader understand it? If not, it's misleading.

Well, then whats the point of it? I think ignoring capital and wealth is pretty foolish when you are discussing economic mobility. Anything that does this is misleading.

Again, I have to agree with you. If you redefine "misleading" to mean whatever it needs to mean to accurately describe the article I linked to, then the article I linked to is misleading. Or, if you impose an unnatural reading on the article, such that it says something that it otherwise doesn't say, then it's also misleading.

But then I could just say that, given the consistent use of the word "income," and the utter absence of the word "wealth" from the article, the author clearly anticipated your misreading, and addressed it explicitly.*

*
The word "wealth" appears once, in the next-to-last paragraph. Is this why you got so confused? In any event, however, if you get to add words in to reach your desired meaning, then I feel entitled to omit words to try to reel you back in to the actual meaning.
 

benjipwns

Banned
This is either shamelessly disingenuous or your memory is faulty. The usual division between the 1% and the 99% has been related to income, rather than wealth, since Occupy Wall Street popularized those numbers in 2011. So, no, you clearly can't speak for "people generally."
I think this is because of the difficulty in measuring individual wealth. Whereas there is massively more information on incomes.

But to look at say, Bill Gates, over the years it's really just near blind estimates because the "real value" of any of his holdings are impossible to determine until they're sold. Or hell, just an average joe whose house is his only "asset" of value.
 

Piecake

Member
This is either shamelessly disingenuous or your memory is faulty. The usual division between the 1% and the 99% has been related to income, rather than wealth, since Occupy Wall Street popularized those numbers in 2011. So, no, you clearly can't speak for "people generally."



Showing that the division between the top 1% of income earners and the bottom 99% percent of income earners is not static obfuscates the issue of income inequality? Obfuscates? Are you sure you understand what that word means?



I guess I should just agree with you at this point: if you misunderstand the article, or insist on reading it in an unjustified way, it most definitely does seem to say that.



I don't think the feeble-mindedness of NY Times readers justifies calling an article that was clear as to its meaning "misleading." Better to just say, "Well, the article's pretty straightforward, but they should include a disclaimer for all the people who don't understand the words."



I didn't ignore the main point. I acknowledged that the main point (after taking into account the wrongness of your word choice) was correct. But what you said was not correct, because you used the wrong word. Why do you keep dwelling on this?



Good thing nobody's done that, then.



Could a NY Times reader understand it? If not, it's misleading.



Again, I have to agree with you. If you redefine "misleading" to mean whatever it needs to mean to accurately describe the article I linked to, then the article I linked to is misleading. Or, if you impose an unnatural reading on the article, such that it says something that it otherwise doesn't say, then it's also misleading.

But then I could just say that, given the consistent use of the word "income," and the utter absence of the word "wealth" from the article, the author clearly anticipated your misreading, and addressed it explicitly.*

*
The word "wealth" appears once, in the next-to-last paragraph. Is this why you got so confused? In any event, however, if you get to add words in to reach your desired meaning, then I feel entitled to omit words to try to reel you back in to the actual meaning.

Rather than talking about the 1 percent and the 99 percent as if they were forever fixed, it would make much more sense to talk about the fact that Americans are likely to be exposed to both prosperity and poverty during their lives, and to shape our policies accordingly. As such, we have much more in common with one another than we dare to realize.

Black Mamba has already brought this up, but this is misleading. The article is conflating wealth and income because the 1% and 99% was always thought in terms of Wealth, not income that is measured annually.

I am sure you will continue to believe that you want to believe though. Seems like Black Mamba did a far better job of explaining it anyways.
 
This is either shamelessly disingenuous or your memory is faulty. The usual division between the 1% and the 99% has been related to income, rather than wealth, since Occupy Wall Street popularized those numbers in 2011. So, no, you can't speak for "people generally."

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize Occupy Wall Street was targeting John Johnson who won $500k lottery and paid off his $400k in debt and took the first vacation in 10 years and not Chase's CEO who received no wages but took stock in the company he didn't sell, yet.

Yeah, that movement was about a single year's income and not wealth distribution.

WAT

Showing that the division between the top 1% of income earners and the bottom 99% percent of income earners is not static obfuscates the issue of income inequality? Obfuscates? Are you sure you understand what that word means?

In the method at which its non-staticness is displayed, yes, yes it does. It implied that people become rich and not rich all the time, which is false and very fucking far from the truth.

Look at what your article states: Yet while many Americans will experience some level of affluence during their lives

This is fucking bullshit. Just because you get a one time injection of $500k doesn't make you affluent. Nor does a recession causing wall streeters losing lots of money at once (with little to no wages) affecting affecting it matter.

income inequality is a long term issue. Defining it by looking solely at one year, which is an arbitrary and in this case useless measurement of time, only confuses the issue.

Explain to me why a one year measurement of income is useful in a discussion of income inequality? Why not one month? One day? One hour?

The article is bad because it gives us a useless measurement. Income inequality should not be measured by one year intervals. What somebody earns in roughly 1/80th of their life (or 1/60th of their adult life) tells us virtually nothing about income inequality. It's only purpose is to confuse the issue entirely.
 
I was wondering, do most people here actually want a hillary presidency if she wins? Isn't she noticeable regressive in multiple areas. Like drug laws and being a warhawk somewhat?
She is right of Obama, and Bill Clinton is pretty much going to be the shadow President. So yeah I would hold my nose voting for her. Again, the alternative would be disastrous. Especially considering old farts on the SC bench are going to retire soon.
 
Sotomayor's dissent is pretty good. Really shows how vital her voice is on the court. The opening paragraph really hits hard

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-9490_3fb4.pdf

We are fortunate to live in a democratic society. But without checks, democratically approved legislation can oppress minority groups. For that reason, our Constitution places limits on what a majority of the people may do. This case implicates one such limit: the guarantee of equal protection of the laws. Although that guarantee is traditionally understood to prohibit intentional discrimination under existing laws, equal protection does not end there. Another fundamental strand of our equal protection jurisprudence focuses on process, securing to all citizens the right to participate meaningfully and equally in self government. That right is the bedrock of our democracy,for it preserves all other rights.

Yet to know the history of our Nation is to understand its long and lamentable record of stymieing the right of racial minorities to participate in the political process. At first, the majority acted with an open, invidious purpose. Notwithstanding the command of the Fifteenth Amendment, certain States shut racial minorities out of the political process altogether by withholding the right to vote. This Court intervened to preserve that right. The majority tried again, replacing outright bans on voting with literacy tests, good character requirements, poll taxes, and gerrymandering. The Court was not fooled; it invalidated those measures, too. The majority persisted.This time, although it allowed the minority access to the political process, the majority changed the ground rules of the process so as to make it more difficult for the minority,and the minority alone, to obtain policies designed to foster racial integration. Although these political restructurings may not have been discriminatory in purpose, the Court reaffirmed the right of minority members of our society to participate meaningfully and equally in the political process.

This case involves this last chapter of discrimination: A majority of the Michigan electorate changed the basic rules of the political process in that State in a manner that uniquely disadvantaged racial minorities. Prior to the enactment of the constitutional initiative at issue here, all of the admissions policies of Michigan’s public colleges and universities—including race-sensitive admissions policies—were in the hands of each institution’s governing board. The members of those boards are nominated by political parties and elected by the citizenry in statewide elections. After over a century of being shut out of Michigan’s institutions of higher education, racial minorities in Michigan had succeeded in persuading the elected board representatives to adopt admissions policies that took into account the benefits of racial diversity. And this Court twice blessed such efforts—first in Regents of Univ. of Cal.v. Bakke, 438 U. S. 265 (1978), and again in Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U. S. 306 (2003), a case that itself concerned a Michigan admissions policy.

In the wake of Grutter, some voters in Michigan set out to eliminate the use of race-sensitive admissions policies.Those voters were of course free to pursue this end in any number of ways. For example, they could have persuaded existing board members to change their minds through individual or grassroots lobbying efforts, or through general public awareness campaigns. Or they could have mobilized efforts to vote uncooperative board members out of office, replacing them with members who would share their desire to abolish race-sensitive admissions policies.When this Court holds that the Constitution permits a particular policy, nothing prevents a majority of a State’s voters from choosing not to adopt that policy. Our system of government encourages—and indeed, depends on—that type of democratic action.
But instead, the majority of Michigan voters changed the rules in the middle of the game, reconfiguring the existing political process in Michigan in a manner that burdened racial minorities. They did so in the 2006 election by amending the Michigan Constitution to enact Art.I, §26, which provides in relevant part that Michigan’s public universities “shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.”

As a result of §26, there are now two very different processes through which a Michigan citizen is permitted to influence the admissions policies of the State’s universities: one for persons interested in race-sensitive admissions policies and one for everyone else. A citizen who is a University of Michigan alumnus, for instance, can advocate for an admissions policy that considers an applicant’s legacy status by meeting individually with members of the Board of Regents to convince them of her views, by joining with other legacy parents to lobby the Board, or by voting for and supporting Board candidates who share her position. The same options are available to a citizen who wants the Board to adopt admissions policies that consider athleticism, geography, area of study, and so on. The one and only policy a Michigan citizen may not seek through this long-established process is a race-sensitive admissions policy that considers race in an individualized manner when it is clear that race-neutral alternatives are not adequate to achieve diversity. For that policy alone, the citizens of Michigan must undertake the daunting task of amending the State Constitution.

Our precedents do not permit political restructurings that create one process for racial minorities and a separate, less burdensome process for everyone else. This Court has held that the Fourteenth Amendment does not tolerate “a political structure that treats all individuals as equals, yet more subtly distorts governmental processes in such a way as to place special burdens on the ability of minority groups to achieve beneficial legislation.” Washington v. Seattle School Dist. No. 1, 458 U. S. 457, 467 (1982) (internal quotation marks omitted). Such restructuring, the Court explained, “is no more permissible than denying [the minority] the [right to] vote, on an equal basis with others.” Hunter v. Erickson, 393 U. S. 385, 391 (1969). In those cases—Hunter and Seattle—the Court recognized what is now known as the “political-process doctrine”: When the majority reconfigures the political process in a manner that burdens only a racial minority,that alteration triggers strict judicial scrutiny.

Today, disregarding stare decisis, a majority of the Court effectively discards those precedents. The plurality does so, it tells us, because the freedom actually secured by the Constitution is the freedom of self-government—because the majority of Michigan citizens “exercised their privilege to enact laws as a basic exercise of their democratic power.” Ante, at 15. It would be “demeaning to the democratic process,” the plurality concludes, to disturb that decision in any way. Ante, at 17. This logic embraces majority rule without an important constitutional limit.

The plurality’s decision fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the injustice worked by §26. This case is not, as the plurality imagines, about “who may resolve” the debate over the use of race in higher education admissions. Ante, at 18. I agree wholeheartedly that nothing vests the resolution of that debate exclusively in the courts or requires that we remove it from the reach of the electorate. Rather, this case is about how the debate over the use of race-sensitive admissions policies may be resolved, contra, ibid.—that is, it must be resolved in constitution- ally permissible ways. While our Constitution does not guarantee minority groups victory in the political process, it does guarantee them meaningful and equal access to that process. It guarantees that the majority may not win by stacking the political process against minority groups permanently, forcing the minority alone to surmount unique obstacles in pursuit of its goals—here, educational diversity that cannot reasonably be accomplished through race-neutral measures. Today, by permitting a majority of the voters in Michigan to do what our Constitution forbids,the Court ends the debate over race-sensitive admissions policies in Michigan in a manner that contravenes constitutional protections long recognized in our precedents.

Like the plurality, I have faith that our citizenry will continue to learn from this Nation’s regrettable history; that it will strive to move beyond those injustices towards a future of equality. And I, too, believe in the importance of public discourse on matters of public policy. But I part ways with the plurality when it suggests that judicial intervention in this case “impede” rather than “advance” the democratic process and the ultimate hope of equality. Ante, at 16. I firmly believe that our role as judges includes policing the process of self-government and stepping in when necessary to secure the constitutional guarantee of equal protection. Because I would do so here, I respectfully dissent.


Supreme Court just upheld Michigan State (the college)'s right to ban Affirmative Action for recruiting purposes.

(uh-oh)

Its another decision that pretends on-their-face racially neutral things are racially neutral (at least scalia and thomas' opinion) and ignores precedent to get their policy goals.
 

KingK

Member
I was wondering, do most people here actually want a hillary presidency if she wins? Isn't she noticeable regressive in multiple areas. Like drug laws and being a warhawk somewhat?

I definitely wouldn't be optimistic about a Hillary presidency, but ultimately there's a good chance the next president decides the balance on the supreme court and I don't want a Republican in office for that. I probably won't vote for her in the primary though, depending on who runs.
 
I was wondering, do most people here actually want a hillary presidency if she wins? Isn't she noticeable regressive in multiple areas. Like drug laws and being a warhawk somewhat?

I don't think her personal opinions on things matter. She'll do what political pressure will force her to do.

I hope that political pressure is liberal, I'll work to make it so. You should do the same even if its a republican president. Its why Nixon did the things he did (EPA, Clear Air Act), it wasn't out of the goodness of his heart.
 

Leunam

Member
Yet to know the history of our Nation is to understand its long and lamentable record of stymieing the right of racial minorities to participate in the political process. At first, the majority acted with an open, invidious purpose. Notwithstanding the command of the Fifteenth Amendment, certain States shut racial minorities out of the political process altogether by withholding the right to vote. This Court intervened to preserve that right. The majority tried again, replacing outright bans on voting with literacy tests, good character requirements, poll taxes, and gerrymandering. The Court was not fooled; it invalidated those measures, too. The majority persisted.This time, although it allowed the minority access to the political process, the majority changed the ground rules of the process so as to make it more difficult for the minority,and the minority alone, to obtain policies designed to foster racial integration. Although these political restructurings may not have been discriminatory in purpose, the Court reaffirmed the right of minority members of our society to participate meaningfully and equally in the political process.

Damn. :/
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Sotomayor's dissent starting page 51. Quote starting page 54:

Justice Sotomayor said:
Our precedents do not permit political restructurings that create one process for racial minorities and a separate, less burdensome process for everyone else. This Court has held that the Fourteenth Amendment does not tolerate “a political structure that treats all individuals as equals, yet more subtly distorts governmental processes in such a way as to place special burdens on the ability of minority groups to achieve beneficial legislation.” Washington v. Seattle School Dist. No. 1, 458 U. S. 457, 467 (1982) (internal quotation marks omitted). Such restructuring, the Court explained, “is no more permissible than denying [the minority] the [right to] vote, on an equal basis with others.” Hunter v. Erickson, 393 U. S. 385, 391 (1969). In those cases—Hunter and Seattle—the Court recognized what is now known as the “political-process doctrine”: When the majority reconfigures the political process in a manner that burdens only a racial minority,that alteration triggers strict judicial scrutiny.

It's annoying that I have to go to the damn source to see any arguments against this ruling. Every single article I looked through seemed to either say nothing about the arguments or only included Kennedy's majority opinion.

EDIT: Beaten apparently. Oh well.
 
Did we read the same article? The point of the article was that the 1% isn't a static block of income-earners, not that inequality "isnt THAT bad."

I think serious academic researchers would not limit their study to the political construct of the "top 1%," which does not literally mean the top 1% of income earners every year. The top 1% is a political shortcut for the top 0.1% or even the top 0.01%, i.e., corporate executives and wall street traders--the people who make multiple millions of dollars every year (or most years). As well, by focusing on these particular metrics, the study (at least as described by this author) seems intent on avoiding scrutiny of the data that would actually tell us something meaningful.

That some people have good income in years when their parents die (i.e., the people who "move into" the top 20% or 10% or 1% at least one year in their life) is not an observation worthy of serious research or comment. The ultimate conclusion that the researchers draw, i.e., that "It is clear that the image of a static 1 and 99 percent is largely incorrect" is largely (if by that we mean meaningfully) incorrect.

And as for confusing wealth and income, you should talk to the author of the study about that, since he apparently (wrongly) concludes that the data shows that "rather than being a place of static, income-based social tiers, America is a place where a large majority of people will experience either wealth or poverty — or both — during their lifetimes."
 
@mckaycoppins
Per Paul Ryan's office: Next week, the House budget committee will hold a hearing called "The War on Poverty: Lessons from the Frontlines."
Lol

Sotomayor's dissent starting page 51. Quote starting page 54:



It's annoying that I have to go to the damn source to see any arguments against this ruling. Every single article I looked through seemed to either say nothing about the arguments or only included Kennedy's majority opinion.

EDIT: Beaten apparently. Oh well.

I haven't dug into kennedy's decision (do pluralities have less of a pull in stare decision? BTW or do they get treated as the court's reasoning?) But the stenographers summary tell's me its gonna be a dozie of "why this case is different than the last one and why were not overturning precedent but we are, but where not, and people misread the last decision, oh and we have no idea what racism and discrimination actually look like"
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Lol



I haven't dug into kennedy's decision (do pluralities have less of a pull in stare decision? BTW or do they get treated as the court's reasoning?) But the stenographers summary tell's me its gonna be a dozie of "why this case is different than the last one and why were not overturning precedent but we are, but where not, and people misread the last decision, oh and we have no idea what racism and discrimination actually look like"

Basically it's a whole lot of "it's not the court's place to decide how to combat discrimination". As if this case is about forcing a state to adopt affirmative action and keep it on the books.

If they just wanted to end a affirmative action law, then I probably would agree with Kennedy, but they want to outright ban affirmative action, and that should definitely not be ok.
 
A bit early for House polls, but here's one potentially endangered seat Democrats might have a chance at holding:

West Virginia's 3rd congressional district

Nick Rahall (D-inc) 52
Evan Jenkins (R) 40
There's been a bit of diablosing over Rahall's seat after reports that he had to be talked out of retiring by the DCCC and that internal polling has shown him down double digits, so these numbers are nice to see.
 
I haven't dug into kennedy's decision (do pluralities have less of a pull in stare decision? BTW or do they get treated as the court's reasoning?)

They have less pull. Generally, the opinion expressing the narrowest ground of disposition will be considered the rule of the case. So a single justice writing for himself or herself could have the "controlling" opinion for purposes of stare decisis:

"When a fragmented Court decides a case and no single rationale explaining the result enjoys the assent of five Justices, 'the holding of the Court may be viewed as that position taken by those Members who concurred in the judgments on the narrowest grounds . . . .'"

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=12064198172779556411
 
Posted without further comment:
11-28-11pov-rev4-17-14-f5.png


EDIT: I lied because the source is actually pretty cool:
http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2014Slides.pdf

This is really scary. What happened in the great depression is that common people had no money to buy stuff . . . there would be farms making plenty of food but most of people just did not have money to buy the food. When so much of the wealth gets trapped in the hands of so few, the economy stalls and things blow up. It is not even good for those rich people but many of them can't see that and just greedily want more.
 
In my colleagues’ view, examining the racial impact of legislation only perpetuates racial discrimination. This refusal to accept the stark reality that race matters is regrettable.The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to speak openly and candidly on the subject of race, and to apply the Constitution with eyes open to the unfortunate effects of centuries of racial discrimination. As members of the judiciary tasked with intervening to carryout the guarantee of equal protection, we ought not sitback and wish away, rather than confront, the racial inequality that exists in our society. It is this view that works harm, by perpetuating the facile notion that what makes race matter is acknowledging the simple truth that race does matter
And race matters for reasons that really are only skin deep, that cannot be discussed any other way, and that cannot be wished away. Race matters to a young man’sview of society when he spends his teenage years watching others tense up as he passes, no matter the neighborhood where he grew up. Race matters to a young woman’s sense of self when she states her hometown, and then is
pressed, “No, where are you really from?”, regardless of how many generations her family has been in the country. Race matters to a young person addressed by a stranger in a foreign language, which he does not understand because only English was spoken at home. Race matters because of the slights, the snickers, the silent judgments that reinforce that most crippling of thoughts: “I do not belong here.”

More fundamentally, it ignores the importance of diversity in institutions of higher education and reveals how little my colleagues understand about the reality of race in America.
I heart Sotomayor.
Some of this is supreme court level ether
 
This is really scary. What happened in the great depression is that common people had no money to buy stuff . . . there would be farms making plenty of food but most of people just did not have money to buy the food. When so much of the wealth gets trapped in the hands of so few, the economy stalls and things blow up. It is not even good for those rich people but many of them can't see that and just greedily want more.

Globalization. The don't need Americans anymore
 
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